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What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

Such as?
Seeing they see not
Hearing they hear not

eddif
If you don't study for yourself, what value does what I say have?
Would you believe me?
No. Not unless you agreed.
The reasons are interesting and would take some time to post.
Forget about not hearing and not seeing.
This is nonsense but refers back to the OT. (the nonsense is on your part).

Do you suppose Jesus walked around Israel for over 3 years because He wanted to keep everything a secret?
Are you a gnostic?
No.
Then find out why He spoke in parables.
 
Hi wondering
Then find out why He spoke in parables.
I believe Jesus himself told us why he spoke in parables.

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.


That's why Jesus said he spoke to the people in parables. Got something different to share?

Luke shares the account slightly less wordy:

He (Jesus) said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, “ ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

God bless,
Ted
 

What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?​

They all go to hell in a hand basket. Well, not necessarily in a "hand basket" ... I made that up. :)

Verses showing knowledge of Christ essential to salvation:
  • John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].
  • John 14:6 No one comes to the Father except through me".
  • John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
  • John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
  • Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”
  • Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son].
  • 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!
  • 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
  • 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
To say one can be saved without knowledge of Christ is espousing "another gospel". Assuming such a silly proposition is true, ask yourself: if someone is saved by 'another gospel' and then hears and rejects the gospel of Christ ... is the person saved? Maybe God accepts either/or ...LOL.

Inclusivism depreciates the Trinity. This depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems. John MacArthur
 
Hi wondering

I believe Jesus himself told us why he spoke in parables.

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.


That's why Jesus said he spoke to the people in parables. Got something different to share?

Luke shares the account slightly less wordy:

He (Jesus) said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, “ ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

God bless,
Ted
We're all allowed to our own opinion.
Unfortunately, this is also true for Christianity....
I don't think Jesus meant for each of us to have our own opinion.
It didn't sound to me like He was teaching opinions.

So I could only repeat what I posted to eddif - I'm afraid you're going to have to study this on your own.
 

What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?​

They all go to hell in a hand basket. Well, not necessarily in a "hand basket" ... I made that up. :)

Verses showing knowledge of Christ essential to salvation:
  • John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].
  • John 14:6 No one comes to the Father except through me".
  • John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
  • John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
  • Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”
  • Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son].
  • 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!
  • 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
  • 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
To say one can be saved without knowledge of Christ is espousing "another gospel". Assuming such a silly proposition is true, ask yourself: if someone is saved by 'another gospel' and then hears and rejects the gospel of Christ ... is the person saved? Maybe God accepts either/or ...LOL.

Inclusivism depreciates the Trinity. This depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems. John MacArthur
Gee FF,
Some would say that YOU are believing a different gospel.
Extremely different.
 
Gee FF,
Some would say that YOU are believing a different gospel.
Extremely different.
I am sure a lot do think I have a different gospel; 800 million R.C.s for example. But I follow, for the most part, a systematize theology that makes the topics in the bible fit together. The R.C.s are the only other group that systematizes, but unlike the systematization done by my group that relies on scripture alone, the R.C.s appointed themselves as authority of God's revelation.
If the gospel one adheres to is too far off the mark then you are toast. My theology and the theology of my group says God insures we done stray to far from the truth. Other groups who have not systematized their doctrine tend to depend on themselves for salvation. Given the diversity of their teachings and contradictions of their doctrines and non adherence to logic .... I am lookin' good (pun intended). Thank you God ... as my theology depends on You alone, whereas others depend upon themselves to figure it out ..... Good Luck ... or God's predestination.

Aside: The bible says God favors the weak minded (1 Corinthians 1:26-30)
... this would be contradictory to a theology that depended upon "figuring it out" for themselves.

Aside: Do you still believe Moslem's who have not heard of Christ can make it to heaven?
 
People who have never heard any of the gospel message from Genesis to Revelation will be judged according to what they know about God and justice and righteousness revealed to them in nature and natural law, and conscience.
... and likely CONDEMNED for it: Salvation is an act of GOD's MERCY, not a reward for man's faith. Men choose DARKNESS, if left to themselves. Adam HID from God until God drew Adam into His presense. Then God covered man's nakedness. That is who we (mankind) are.

"The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." (pun intended) 😉
 
Dark letters, in typing - of which I AM a professional, only means that something is being HIGHLIGHTED.
This is done to bring importance to it.
Exactly.

By the way, I doubt you've been typing as long as I have. 60 + years.....but can still only manage one finger per hand 🤪
 
Exactly.

By the way, I doubt you've been typing as long as I have. 60 + years.....but can still only manage one finger per hand 🤪
I'm not giving my age away Mister!
Let's just say I think I've got you beat!
And I use all 10 fingers!!
😄
 
I am sure a lot do think I have a different gospel; 800 million R.C.s for example.

Isn't it 2 billion? I don't know.

Plus, all the rest of Protestantism also believes the reformed are following a different gospel.
Oh. And let's not forget all those Orthodox churches and all the other Catholic churches besides the Roman Rite.

But I follow, for the most part, a systematize theology that makes the topics in the bible fit together. The R.C.s are the only other group that systematizes, but unlike the systematization done by my group that relies on scripture alone, the R.C.s appointed themselves as authority of God's revelation.

Well, heck Fred, somebody has to be the authority!!
Think of all the denominations Protestants enjoy.
There's a church/denomination for every little idea somebody got that didn't match up with the rest.
And so, here we are.

I think Protestants should have a Pope too.
Yeah.

If the gospel one adheres to is too far off the mark then you are toast.

Then, I'd be worried if I were you.
But, I do believe that God is much more merciful than we make Him out to be.
I truly doubt it's our doctrine that saves us...most likely it'll be our faith, our love for God and our effort in following Him.

My theology and the theology of my group says God insures we done stray to far from the truth. Other groups who have not systematized their doctrine tend to depend on themselves for salvation. Given the diversity of their teachings and contradictions of their doctrines and non adherence to logic .... I am lookin' good (pun intended). Thank you God ... as my theology depends on You alone, whereas others depend upon themselves to figure it out ..... Good Luck ... or God's predestination.

I tend to agree with you somewhat.
Maybe if we stray too far, we will become lost. I could see this.

I don't understand why you believe this systemized theology is bringing you closer to correct theology.

And I do agree that what WE EACH INDIVIDUALLY believe is not good.
We Christians must look like a joke to outsiders.

Aside: The bible says God favors the weak minded (1 Corinthians 1:26-30)
... this would be contradictory to a theology that depended upon "figuring it out" for themselves.

Well then, I'm getting in!
I'm becoming more weak minded as time goes by.

Aside: Do you still believe Moslem's who have not heard of Christ can make it to heaven?
Yes. Of course they do.
IF they are worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD, the creator of the universe,
we know Him as God Father.
GOD FATHER
GOD SON
GOD HOLY SPIRIT

It's still only ONE GOD.

When are you going to change your mind?
You'd have to stop being reformed first, I guess.
 
... and likely CONDEMNED for it: Salvation is an act of GOD's MERCY, not a reward for man's faith. Men choose DARKNESS, if left to themselves. Adam HID from God until God drew Adam into His presense. Then God covered man's nakedness. That is who we (mankind) are.

"The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." (pun intended) 😉
Thank God HE judges and not YOU.

How small you make God to be.
Get Him out of that little box you have Him locked in.
 
Plus, all the rest of Protestantism also believes the reformed are following a different gospel.
By definition every denomination thinks other denominations are following another gospel. That's why they separate and form a another denomination. Also, few there are that find the narrow gate.
Not that either comment determines "what is truth".

Well, heck Fred, somebody has to be the authority!!
Agreed. God is the authority. God's word is therefore the authority.



Think of all the denominations Protestants enjoy.
There's a church/denomination for every little idea somebody got that didn't match up with the rest.
And so, here we are.

I think Protestants should have a Pope too.
Yeah.
Many of the churches are similar... but your point is valid. Revelation seemed to have a complaint against all the churches but one. Paul gave warnings of people coming in to corrupt congregations.
I don't have a solution for coming together as one. Setting up men as God's representatives like the R.C.s do leads to corruption. (Aside: The R.C.s had multiple popes for awhile.)




Then, I'd be worried if I were you.
But, I do believe that God is much more merciful than we make Him out to be.
I truly doubt it's our doctrine that saves us...most likely it'll be our faith, our love for God and our effort in following Him.
I am a little worried. I know many are deceived. Logically, it could be me.
Some doctrine saves, some are not relevant to being born again. Doctrine says we are saved by faith in Christ. If you get that wrong you're toast. I believe God ensures we get it right if we are chosen so not much I can do about it. You, IMO, believe you must save yourself so if that is correct you best get the appropriate salvific doctrines correct. Your eternal destiny is on your shoulders; again, if you are right that you choose God and not the other way around.
Interesting that God favors the feeble minded and yet your way is dependent upon understanding properly as determined by yourself.



I don't understand why you believe this systemized theology is bringing you closer to correct theology.
It can correct errors. For example, if might have ideas of about two doctrine. When I compare the two ideas I find there is a contradiction. I then must find an explanation of my error. God is rational.


We Christians must look like a joke to outsiders.
Hmmmm.... if suppose so. I don't think they care too much as long as we don't interfere with their agenda. To some degree, we are jokes in that Christians disagree on many subjects; but they agree on many things too. Forum highlight disagreement.

Re: The bible says God favors the weak minded (1 Corinthians 1:26-30)
Well then, I'm getting in!
I'm becoming more weak minded as time goes by.
LMAO .... well, that's not the only qualification ...lol ...


Re: Muslims going to heaven
Well, there are many verses saying one must know Christ to go to heaven. One or two verses say one must believe Christ is God. It is of the gravest warning that Muslims stress Christ is not God.

Premise 1: One must believe Christ is God to get into heaven
Premise 2:
Yes. Of course they do.
IF they are worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD, the creator of the universe,
we know Him as God Father.
GOD FATHER
GOD SON
GOD HOLY SPIRIT
Conclusion: Muslims don't, to put it in your words:
worship the ONE TRUE GOD
Therefore, they are "TOAST".
 
By definition every denomination thinks other denominations are following another gospel. That's why they separate and form a another denomination. Also, few there are that find the narrow gate.
Not that either comment determines "what is truth".


Agreed. God is the authority. God's word is therefore the authority.




Many of the churches are similar... but your point is valid. Revelation seemed to have a complaint against all the churches but one. Paul gave warnings of people coming in to corrupt congregations.
I don't have a solution for coming together as one. Setting up men as God's representatives like the R.C.s do leads to corruption. (Aside: The R.C.s had multiple popes for awhile.)





I am a little worried. I know many are deceived. Logically, it could be me.
Some doctrine saves, some are not relevant to being born again. Doctrine says we are saved by faith in Christ. If you get that wrong you're toast. I believe God ensures we get it right if we are chosen so not much I can do about it. You, IMO, believe you must save yourself so if that is correct you best get the appropriate salvific doctrines correct. Your eternal destiny is on your shoulders; again, if you are right that you choose God and not the other way around.
Interesting that God favors the feeble minded and yet your way is dependent upon understanding properly as determined by yourself.




It can correct errors. For example, if might have ideas of about two doctrine. When I compare the two ideas I find there is a contradiction. I then must find an explanation of my error. God is rational.



Hmmmm.... if suppose so. I don't think they care too much as long as we don't interfere with their agenda. To some degree, we are jokes in that Christians disagree on many subjects; but they agree on many things too. Forum highlight disagreement.

Re: The bible says God favors the weak minded (1 Corinthians 1:26-30)
Well then, I'm getting in!

LMAO .... well, that's not the only qualification ...lol ...


Re: Muslims going to heaven
Well, there are many verses saying one must know Christ to go to heaven. One or two verses say one must believe Christ is God. It is of the gravest warning that Muslims stress Christ is not God.

Premise 1: One must believe Christ is God to get into heaven
Premise 2:

Conclusion: Muslims don't, to put it in your words:

Therefore, they are "TOAST".
LOL
You must love toast!
(As long as it's not you 😁 )
Magnana.
 
Think of all the denominations Protestants enjoy.
There's a church/denomination for every little idea somebody got that didn't match up with the rest.
And so, here we are.
There are only two denominations.

One is composed of those who believe you are made righteous and, therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom by being forgiven your unrighteousness and receiving the declaration of his righteousness, not by working out your own righteousness. The other denomination is composed of those who believe that you are made righteous and, therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom by working righteousness in yourself through satisfactory performance of various rituals and deeds of righteousness.

You can tell which denomination you are in by which belief is abhorrent to you. It's a test. God is testing hearts to see who believes that the only way to be righteous is to be forgiven and to receive God's declaration of righteousness apart from your own efforts to be righteous. The Bible tells us most people fail the test.
 
How small you make God to be.
Get Him out of that little box you have Him locked in.

Exodus 33:18-23​
[NKJV] 18 And he said, "Please, show me Your glory." 19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." 21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 "So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 "Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."​
Romans 9:14-18 [NKJV]​
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

I will not REPENT for believing the WORD OF GOD when it describes His character ("name").
 
By definition every denomination thinks other denominations are following another gospel. That's why they separate and form a another denomination. Also, few there are that find the narrow gate.
Not that either comment determines "what is truth".

Here's the problem as I see it:

One gospel has to be correct and the others have to necessarily be ANOTHER GOSPEL.
Which one is the big question.

I like to think the correct gospel is the one the early Christians followed.
The REALLY early Christians.

You don't agree?
Why not?

Agreed. God is the authority. God's word is therefore the authority.

Oh yeah.
Then why do you believe something totally different than I do?
(please don't speak about being brought up-bringing in the family - I think we here have studied enough on our own).

Many of the churches are similar... but your point is valid. Revelation seemed to have a complaint against all the churches but one. Paul gave warnings of people coming in to corrupt congregations.

Gnostics at that point.
But there were also many others.
Including Manechaenism - of which Augustine was one.
(had to get that in there...)

I don't have a solution for coming together as one. Setting up men as God's representatives like the R.C.s do leads to corruption. (Aside: The R.C.s had multiple popes for awhile.)

But don't YOU also have representatives of God?
Wouldn't those be your primary theologians?

When did the CC have multiple Popes?

I am a little worried. I know many are deceived. Logically, it could be me.

I'd like to post something Mr. Calvin wrote in book 3, but I feel it would be too mean of me.
I have my limits.

Some doctrine saves, some are not relevant to being born again. Doctrine says we are saved by faith in Christ. If you get that wrong you're toast.

OK. I think I could agree with this.
We are saved by faith in Christ.
AND by following Him and His teachings. (as best we can).

I believe God ensures we get it right if we are chosen so not much I can do about it.

We are not chosen.
We are not elected.
At least not the way you understand it.

We ARE chosen but based on something God let us know about.
He let us know HOW to become saved since that's why Jesus died.
Why have Jesus be sacrificed if salvation didn't depend on Him?
Why all those OT sacrifices if, anyway, God knew by chosing the person, who would be saved and who would not.
Whimsical God you believe in.
He's not even honest with His favorite creation...us.
Even prepared a Garden for us and all.

You, IMO, believe you must save yourself so if that is correct you best get the appropriate salvific doctrines correct. Your eternal destiny is on your shoulders; again, if you are right that you choose God and not the other way around.

I've said it many times to you, so I'm not repeating it here.
Read Ephesians 2:8 AGAIN.

At least I have a 99% chance of knowing of my salvation.
YOU do NOT.
Must I explain why,,,,again?

Interesting that God favors the feeble minded and yet your way is dependent upon understanding properly as determined by yourself.
Nothing is dependent on our understanding anything.
You think only scholars can be saved?
I told you all we need:
Love God
Obey Him
Love Others
Treat them as you would have them treat you.
It can correct errors. For example, if might have ideas of about two doctrine. When I compare the two ideas I find there is a contradiction. I then must find an explanation of my error. God is rational.
Oh my. I'll have to get back to this...dinner time here.
I think reformed doctrine causes many contradictions.

Hmmmm.... if suppose so. I don't think they care too much as long as we don't interfere with their agenda. To some degree, we are jokes in that Christians disagree on many subjects; but they agree on many things too. Forum highlight disagreement.

Re: The bible says God favors the weak minded (1 Corinthians 1:26-30)
Well then, I'm getting in!
LOL

LMAO .... well, that's not the only qualification ...lol ...
LOL too bad!

Re: Muslims going to heaven
Well, there are many verses saying one must know Christ to go to heaven. One or two verses say one must believe Christ is God. It is of the gravest warning that Muslims stress Christ is not God.

You have a problem with the above because of your belief in Limited Atonement.
I can explain it again if you wish...not that it would do any good.

Premise 1: One must believe Christ is God to get into heaven
Premise 2:

Conclusion: Muslims don't, to put it in your words:

Therefore, they are "TOAST".
If a Muslim believes in God Father, the creator, and worships Him and obeys Him....
He is also worshipping Jesus.
Is Jesus God or not?
Or, maybe they believe in Jesus too but are afraid to get their head cut off.
Only God knows the heart.
 
We are saved by faith in Christ.
AND by following Him and His teachings. (as best we can).
The important matter here is that you are not justified by following Him and His teachings.

You do not become righteous - righteous enough to enter the kingdom - by faithfully performing rituals and doing works.

A person is justified solely by faith in God's promise of His Son, as that was true of Abraham, our example of justification by faith in God's promise, apart from works.
 
The important matter here is that you are not justified by following Him and His teachings.

You do not become righteous - righteous enough to enter the kingdom - by faithfully performing rituals and doing works.

A person is justified solely by faith in God's promise of His Son, as that was true of Abraham, our example of justification by faith in God's promise, apart from works.
Jethro, you have to stop this.
That's an order!
:rollingpin

Your problem is that you refuse to understand the difference between justification as understood by Protestants and as it is understood by Catholics BECAUSE they do not use the term SANCTIFICATION.

Maybe Jimmie Akin could convince you.
Notice the difference IN TERMS.
Sanctification is never alluded to, instead progressive justification is used.

Is it still confusing?
PS
There are a few top apologists in the CC. Jimmie Akin is one of them.


 
I am sure a lot do think I have a different gospel; 800 million R.C.s for example. But I follow, for the most part, a systematize theology that makes the topics in the bible fit together. The R.C.s are the only other group that systematizes, but unlike the systematization done by my group that relies on scripture alone, the R.C.s appointed themselves as authority of God's revelation.
If the gospel one adheres to is too far off the mark then you are toast.
My theology and the theology of my group says God insures we done stray to far from the truth.
Freudian slips?


Other groups who have not systematized their doctrine tend to depend on themselves for salvation. Given the diversity of their teachings and contradictions of their doctrines and non adherence to logic .... I am lookin' good (pun intended). Thank you God ... as my theology depends on You alone, whereas others depend upon themselves to figure it out ..... Good Luck ... or God's predestination.

Aside: The bible says God favors the weak minded (1 Corinthians 1:26-30)
... this would be contradictory to a theology that depended upon "figuring it out" for themselves.
Aside: Do you still believe Moslem's who have not heard of Christ can make it to heaven?
 
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