What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[GodsGrace]

Freudian slips?

Pretty funny Hopeful.
Didn't catch it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, you have to stop this.
That's an order!


Your problem is that you refuse to understand the difference between justification as understood by Protestants and as it is understood by Catholics BECAUSE they do not use the term SANCTIFICATION.

Maybe Jimmie Akin could convince you.
Notice the difference IN TERMS.
Sanctification is never alluded to, instead progressive justification is used.

Is it still confusing?
PS
There are a few top apologists in the CC. Jimmie Akin is one of them.

Justification in Catholic Teaching | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

I can't help it that the Catholic church can't make the proper distinction between justification and sanctification. But, call it what you want, a person is not made righteous as Paul explains the receiving of the gift of God's righteousness by what Catholics call progressive justification.

A person is made perfectly righteous, one time for all time, immediately upon believing in the gospel message. And it is on that basis, alone, that a person has the perfect righteousness required to be translated into the kingdom of light. You do not work for the righteousness of God by which a person becomes saved that was already gifted to you the moment you believed.

The Catholic church is guilty of the sin of the Galatians who started out in the Spirit (assuming Catholics start out in the Spirit), and who then sought to accomplish through rituals and works what had already been accomplished for them when they first believed the gospel message, thus making Christ of no value to them in justification. They had fallen from grace. They were severed from Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Smarty-pants!

I'm 77, by the way .

Smarty-pants!
You just can't beat me!!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A person is made perfectly righteous, one time for all time, immediately upon believing in the gospel message. And it is on that basis, alone, that a person has the perfect righteousness required to be translated into the kingdom of light.

wondering , I'm pretty sure this is where the rub is for those who think you work by faith to achieve the righteousness by which you are allowed to enter into the kingdom of God.

If you ( meaning anybody) do not believe that you receive the perfect righteousness of God required to enter the kingdom of God the moment you believe the gospel, one time for all time, not needing it to be given again, then you literally have not believed the gospel of Christ. You have believed another gospel, one of justification by means of faithful works. You are by definition an unbeliever.

 

[Niblo]

Smarty-pants!
You just can't beat me!!

Pfpfpfpfpfpf

 

[GodsGrace]

I can't help it that the Catholic church can't make the proper distinction between justification and sanctification. But, call it what you want, a person is not made righteous as Paul explains the receiving of the gift of God's righteousness by what Catholics call progressive justification.

A person is made perfectly righteous, one time for all time, immediately upon believing in the gospel message. And it is on that basis, alone, that a person has the perfect righteousness required to be translated into the kingdom of light. You do not work for the righteousness of God by which a person becomes saved that was already gifted to that person the moment they believed.

The Catholic church is guilty of the sin of the Galatians who started out in the Spirit (assuming Catholics start out in the Spirit), and who then sought to accomplish through rituals and works what had already been accomplished for them when they believed the gospel message, thus making Christ of no value to them in justification. They had fallen from grace. They were severed from Christ.

NO.
Not one time and for all.
I know you don't believe in OSAS.
So what's the issue?
You'd rather just go on disliking the CC for a doctrine they don't even teach....?

We are REQUIRED to do good deeds.
James 2:26 Faith without works is dead and of no value to anyone.
Faith ALONE with nothing else does not save.

Why would Jesus have had to teach anything? He could have just said - believe in Me and you'll be saved.
But He didn't say that. He explained HOW we are saved.

Jesus said to keep His commandments.
John 14:15

What are those commandments?
Here are some:

Repent Mat 4:7
Let your light shine (be an example) Mat 5:16

Be reconciled Mat 5:23...

Keep your word Mat 5:37

Love your enemies Mat 5:44...

Do unto others Mat 7:12

Honor your parents Mat 15:4

Forgive Mat 18:21...


and much more...

Did Jesus mean the above?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering , I'm pretty sure this is where the rub is for those who think you work by faith to achieve the righteousness by which you are allowed to enter into the kingdom of God.

If you ( meaning anybody) do not believe that you receive the perfect righteousness of God required to enter the kingdom of God the moment you believe the gospel, one time for all time, not needing it to be given again, then you literally have not believed the gospel of Christ. You have believed another gospel, one of justification by means of faithful works. You are by definition an unbeliever.

So let me ask you:

You now believe that once you're saved, you can never forfeit that salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering , I'm pretty sure this is where the rub is for those who think you work by faith to achieve the righteousness by which you are allowed to enter into the kingdom of God.

If you ( meaning anybody) do not believe that you receive the perfect righteousness of God required to enter the kingdom of God the moment you believe the gospel, one time for all time, not needing it to be given again, then you literally have not believed the gospel of Christ. You have believed another gospel, one of justification by means of faithful works. You are by definition an unbeliever.

Did you read what Jimmie Akin wrote?

No. You didn't.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering , I'm pretty sure this is where the rub is for those who think you work by faith to achieve the righteousness by which you are allowed to enter into the kingdom of God.

If you ( meaning anybody) do not believe that you receive the perfect righteousness of God required to enter the kingdom of God the moment you believe the gospel, one time for all time, not needing it to be given again, then you literally have not believed the gospel of Christ. You have believed another gospel, one of justification by means of faithful works. You are by definition an unbeliever.

Whoa!

I'm an unbeliever (or anyone) if they don't agree to YOUR definition of justification!

What makes someone be an unbeliever is that they DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD.
THAT is an unbeliever.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NO.
Not one time and for all.

Yes, one time for all time, not needing to be repeated - Hebrews 10:14.

I know you don't believe in OSAS.
So what's the issue?

Being justified (made perfectly righteous), one time for all time, not needing for that to be repeated, does not mean you can not lose that justification. It simply means it does not have to be repeated. You have the perfect righteousness of God the moment you believe and you do not have to receive it again. It's a one time good deal that does not peter out over time, or need your help to sustain or make effective, other than to keep believing in it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm an unbeliever (or anyone) if they don't agree to YOUR definition of justification!

It's Paul's description of justification, not mine. And it's his warning of what happens if you don't believe in the way a person is justified (made righteous), one time for all time, not needing to be repeated, by believing the promise, before and apart from and without the aid of your faithful work.

 

[eddif]

There are only two denominations.

One is composed of those who believe you are made righteous and, therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom by being forgiven your unrighteousness and receiving the declaration of his righteousness, not by working out your own righteousness. The other denomination is composed of those who believe that you are made righteous and, therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom by working righteousness in yourself through satisfactory performance of various rituals and deeds of righteousness.

You can tell which denomination you are in by which belief is abhorrent to you. It's a test. God is testing hearts to see who believes that the only way to be righteous is to be forgiven and to receive God's declaration of righteousness apart from your own efforts to be righteous. The Bible tells us most people fail the test.

Well
I like that. I would add riders.
If the earth was seeded by aliens (Gentile background)

99% Old Testament law of Moses (possibly Jewish background)
LOL
Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What makes someone be an unbeliever is that they DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD.
THAT is an unbeliever.

An unbeliever is that they don't believe in God's promise of blessing through his Son. That is what makes an unbeliever. The promise is received through faith, not faithful works. To believe the blessing is achieved through faithful works is to believe another gospel. One that actually severs you from the promised Son, not joins you to him. Paul said this, not me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, one time for all time, not needing to be repeated - Hebrews 10:14.


Being justified (made perfectly righteous), one time for all time, not needing for that to be repeated, does not mean you can not lose that justification. It simply means it does not have to be repeated. You have the perfect righteousness of God the moment you believe and you do not have to receive it again. It's a one time good deal that does not peter out over time, or need your help to sustain or make effective, other than to keep believing in it.

What?

If you forfeit your salvation, you forfeit your justification.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are only two denominations.

One is composed of those who believe you are made righteous and, therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom by being forgiven your unrighteousness and receiving the declaration of his righteousness, not by working out your own righteousness. The other denomination is composed of those who believe that you are made righteous and, therefore, qualified to enter the kingdom by working righteousness in yourself through satisfactory performance of various rituals and deeds of righteousness.

You can tell which denomination you are in by which belief is abhorrent to you. It's a test. God is testing hearts to see who believes that the only way to be righteous is to be forgiven and to receive God's declaration of righteousness apart from your own efforts to be righteous. The Bible tells us most people fail the test.

Well.
I guess I'm in the second catagory.
I don't think Jesus wasted His breath for over 3 years to teach us how to get to Heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

An unbeliever is that they don't believe in God's promise of blessing through his Son. That is what makes an unbeliever. The promise is received through faith, not faithful works. To believe the blessing is achieved through faithful works is to believe another gospel. One that actually severs you from the promised Son, not joins you to him. Paul said this, not me.

No.
An unbeliever means one DOES NOT BELIEVE.

My doctrine will not save me.
Your doctrine will not save you.
@Atpollards doctrine, who keeps giving you likes, will not save him.

In fact, if God is going to be upset with any denomination, it'll be the reformed.

 

[atpollard]

I like to think the correct gospel is the one the early Christians followed.
The REALLY early Christians.

You don't agree?
Why not?

You and he disagree on the definition of "really early Christians".

• You include the ECFs (pre-Augustine).
• He stops at those in the book of Acts and Pauline Letters.

(That pesky "Sola Scriptura' vs 'Church Tradition' rears its ugly head yet again.)

 

[GodsGrace]

It's Paul's description of justification, not mine. And it's his warning of what happens if you don't believe in the way a person is justified (made righteous), one time for all time, not needing to be repeated, by believing the promise, before and apart from and without the aid of your faithful work.

The warning is that if we don't obey GOD,
we will not make it to heaven.
God is the boss, not Paul.

 

[GodsGrace]

You and he disagree on the definition of "really early Christians".

• You include the ECFs (pre-Augustine).
• He stops at those in the book of Acts and Pauline Letters.

(That pesky "Sola Scriptura' vs 'Church Tradition' rears its ugly head yet again.)

All denominations believe in sola scriptura...
The CC adds Tradition.

And I've come to be happy that they do.
Why...
Because, as is plain to see that you and I do not agree on doctrine...
HOW can we discover which one of us is closer to how the Apostles were taught by Jesus?
Perhaps by reading those person whom THEY taught?

We have plenty of writings.
Some almost make it into the NT.

You believe in the Trinity....the early Christians had the task of explaining it.
I haven't ever read anything heretical in their writings.

Why do YOU trust Augustine, but not those that came before him that were "pure" in their understanding?

 

[GodsGrace]

It's Paul's description of justification, not mine. And it's his warning of what happens if you don't believe in the way a person is justified (made righteous), one time for all time, not needing to be repeated, by believing the promise, before and apart from and without the aid of your faithful work.

You haven't answered my question (or I missed it):

Do you believe that once a person is saved they can never forfeit their salvation?