What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[atpollard]

@Atpollards doctrine, who keeps giving you likes, will not save him.

Since I am being dragged into this ... doctrine saves nobody. God already saved me and then sent a 'teacher' (the Holy Spirit) to guide me into Doctrine [The quest to systematically understand the truths of God]. SALVATION precedes SANCTIFICATION and "Doctrine is part of the "walk" [Ephesians 2:10] that comes AFTER the "saved" [Ephesians 2:8-9]. Without Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:10 is pointless "legalism".

 

[GodsGrace]

Since I am being dragged into this ... doctrine saves nobody. God already saved me and then sent a 'teacher' (the Holy Spirit) to guide me into Doctrine [The quest to systematically understand the truths of God]. SALVATION precedes SANCTIFICATION and "Doctrine is part of the "walk" [Ephesians 2:10] that comes AFTER the "saved" [Ephesians 2:8-9]. Without Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:10 is pointless "legalism".

Agreed on Eph 2:10

Let me ask you this:

If a person knows no doctrine, is simple and not concerned with theology,
loves God, obeys Him to the best of their ability, goes to a church or maybe doesn't,
keeps a cross of Jesus or a crucifixion, has never read the bible...
what do you think they're chances of going to heaven are?

Assuming that predestination, as YOU understand it, is left out of the pix....
(othewise the reply is too easy for you).

 

[GodsGrace]

Since I am being dragged into this ... doctrine saves nobody. God already saved me and then sent a 'teacher' (the Holy Spirit) to guide me into Doctrine [The quest to systematically understand the truths of God]. SALVATION precedes SANCTIFICATION and "Doctrine is part of the "walk" [Ephesians 2:10] that comes AFTER the "saved" [Ephesians 2:8-9]. Without Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:10 is pointless "legalism".

Oh A,
you weren't dragged into this.
You've been reading these posts all along.
Be nice.

 

[atpollard]

All denominations believe in sola scriptura...

Respectfully, no. All denominations at least pay 'lip service' to believing in "Scriptura" (Scripture), but "SOLA Scriptura" is "Scripture ALONE" ... as in Scripture WITHOUT Tradition or a Magisterium. All denominations most certainly do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

 

[GodsGrace]

Respectfully, no. All denominations at least pay 'lip service' to believing in "Scriptura" (Scripture), but "SOLA Scriptura" is "Scripture ALONE" ... as in Scripture WITHOUT Tradition or a Magisterium. All denominations most certainly do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

Scripture ALONE does not seem to be working A.
How come there are so many denominations?
How come we all use the same bible and come up with differing doctrine?
Is there more than one Holy Spirit?
Are we purposefully all being taught something different?
You believe God decreed everything that happens...is this His form of a joke on us?

Have you ever read the Didache?
The ECFs?
You're missing a lot.
If you studied them, you'd have to give up being reformed...
that might be difficult for you - I understand.

I left the CC many many years ago and became Protestant.
Then I realized some problems there too.
I now consider myself non-denominatinal and will attend any church except -you know which one.

There's only one God. Why do we want to split Him up like this...

 

[atpollard]

If a person knows no doctrine, is simple and not concerned with theology,
loves God, obeys Him to the best of their ability, goes to a church or maybe doesn't,
keeps a cross of Jesus or a crucifixion, has never read the bible...
what do you think they're chances of going to heaven are?

I base my answers on either what Scripture states or on my personal empirical experience. So let me answer this way:

As I was exhausted with my Nihilistic life and facing the choice of how to die (slow rot in prison or suicide by cop, as those were the only two outcomes for EVERYONE that I had grown up with). I chose to construct my last incendiary device ... a trigger for an "Oklahoma City" scale bomb that would end my pain and eliminate as many of my enemies as was humanly possible ... about 5000 people was my estimate. While perfecting the trigger, Jesus Christ literally SPOKE to me and made several STATEMENTS OF FACT.

1. I did not know him.
2. He understood my pain and had come with an offer.
3. From this day forward, I belonged to him. Everything I HAD, was now HIS and everything HE has was now mine. An even exchange of all for all:
   • my death for His life.
   • my despair for His hope.
   • my want for His plenty.
   • ...

It becomes VERY HARD to believe in Atheism (there is no God) and Nihilism (all morality is relative and there is no ultimate meaning) when one has MET GOD. So I dismantled the device and you have never heard of me like you have heard of Timothy McVeigh or other mass murderers. All I knew of Jesus and the Gospel I learned in EXACTLY 20 church services (Christmas and Easter from birth to 10 years old) and what I knew of THEOLOGY was that it was as false as Santa and the Easter Bunny that you learned about at those exact same times.

However, at that moment, I KNEW that Jesus was real, He was God and I was His. Period. Full Stop. NOTHING ELSE MATTERED!!!

So you tell me, what were my chances of getting into Heaven at that point?
(100% ?)

 

[Fastfredy0]

One gospel has to be correct and the others have to necessarily be ANOTHER GOSPEL.
Which one is the big question.

I like to think the correct gospel is the one the early Christians followed.
The REALLY early Christians.

You don't agree?
Why not?

No, I don't agree for 4 reasons that come to mind.

• Paul says the Christians were immature in their knowledge/theology .... Paul had to give them 'milk' instead of 'solid food' being the analogy. This indicates they had more to learn and that we should not take them as our example.
• John in Revelations speaks to 7 churches and only one didn't have some sort of reprimand. This indicates they had more to learn and that we should not take them as our example.
• even Peter's behavior was reprimanded by Paul and Pete was an apostle no less
• basing theology on the behavior of men is always a bad idea (see history of men .... giggle)

Aside: not trying to be too personal ... but maybe your original R.C. upbringing has given you a bias.


Re: God is the authority. God's word is therefore the authority.

Oh yeah.
Then why do you believe something totally different than I do?

Aside: Our belief are not totally different. We just choose to spend time on the differences and not the similarities.
Why do our beliefs differ ... .... can't say for sure .... initial indoctrination would be part of it, who we were trained by and respect, our parents, books we've read, personal bias, varying presuppositions. (Heck, I don't know why so many people now think men and turn into women)

Including Manechaenism - of which Augustine was one.
(had to get that in there...)

Apparently Augustine changed his mind
From: https://www.gotquestions.org/Manichaeism.html
In fact, one of the first major Christian apologists, Augustine, was a convert from Manichaeism. Prior to committing to Christ, Augustine was part of Manichaeism as a “hearer,” or someone who participated without making any overt vows toward the faith.

 

[atpollard]

How come there are so many denominations?

History. Denominations arise for historical reasons. Some exist because they were started in different countries and served people that spoke different languages. Some denominations split over the question of Slavery during the Civil War. Most split over cultural practices (artwork or no artwork, instruments or human voices only).

Why did the Catholic Church split 500-1000 years before Luther was born? Protestants did not INVENT schisms.

 

[atpollard]

How come we all use the same bible and come up with differing doctrine?

As Jethro pointed out, there are really only TWO doctrines ... MONERGISM (God does it all) or SYNERGISM (God requires people to help save ourselves). There are just LOTS of shades of lipstick to put on that "Free Will" pig (including Catholic).

 

[atpollard]

Is there more than one Holy Spirit?

No.

 

[GodsGrace]

I base my answers on either what Scripture states or on my personal empirical experience. So let me answer this way:

As I was exhausted with my Nihilistic life and facing the choice of how to die (slow rot in prison or suicide by cop, as those were the only two outcomes for EVERYONE that I had grown up with). I chose to construct my last incendiary device ... a trigger for an "Oklahoma City" scale bomb that would end my pain and eliminate as many of my enemies as was humanly possible ... about 5000 people was my estimate. While perfecting the trigger, Jesus Christ literally SPOKE to me and made several STATEMENTS OF FACT.

1. I did not know him.
2. He understood my pain and had come with an offer.
3. From this day forward, I belonged to him. Everything I HAD, was now HIS and everything HE has was now mine. An even exchange of all for all:
   • my death for His life.
   • my despair for His hope.
   • my want for His plenty.
   • ...

It becomes VERY HARD to believe in Atheism (there is no God) and Nihilism (all morality is relative and there is no ultimate meaning) when one has MET GOD. So I dismantled the device and you have never heard of me like you have heard of Timothy McVeigh or other mass murderers. All I knew of Jesus and the Gospel I learned in EXACTLY 20 church services (Christmas and Easter from birth to 10 years old) and what I knew of THEOLOGY was that it was as false as Santa and the Easter Bunny that you learned about at those exact same times.

However, at that moment, I KNEW that Jesus was real, He was God and I was His. Period. Full Stop. NOTHING ELSE MATTERED!!!

So you tell me, what were my chances of getting into Heaven at that point?
(100% ?)

At that point your chances were 100%.

Doctrine does not save.
Our faith in God saves us.

I had a similar experience.
Less dramatic and I was a wife and mother of 2.

 

[GodsGrace]

History. Denominations arise for historical reasons. Some exist because they were started in different countries and served people that spoke different languages. Some denominations split over the question of Slavery during the Civil War. Most split over cultural practices (artwork or no artwork, instruments or human voices only).

Why did the Catholic Church split 500-1000 years before Luther was born? Protestants did not INVENT schisms.

Right.
But they sure did perfect them.
The split in 1000AD was over the authority of the Pope and the filoque, an important part of a creed.

Now a split could be over unimportant teachings and so we have hundreds of denominations. If not thousands as some state.

You reminded me of a parable.
Who is forgiven of much will be more grateful.
God is good.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But don't YOU also have representatives of God?
Wouldn't those be your primary theologians?

If God gave us official "representatives' then YES, those would be my primary theologians. But this relies on the premise the God has assign such a thing, which I do not agree to. God does give the gift of teaching to some but that is in no way infallible.

When did the CC have multiple Popes?

You're probably much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.

In 1409, There Were Three Simultaneous Popes - The Historian's Hut​

Source: https://thehistorianshut.com/2017/02/21/in-1409-there-were-three-simultaneous-popes/

Aside: Maybe this is protestant propaganda ... giggle

OK. I think I could agree with this.
We are saved by faith in Christ.
AND by following Him and His teachings. (as best we can).

Well ... I clarify the need for WORKS to be saved
WORKS are an effect of FAITH, not a cause of salvation. No works indications you were not saved (unless you were the thief on the cross... giggle) Your statement would have works as a cause of salvation and I have it as an effect.
Lot of verses saying we are not saved by works ... you do have James going for your side .. no need to dig further for now

 

[GodsGrace]

As Jethro pointed out, there are really only TWO doctrines ... MONERGISM (God does it all) or SYNERGISM (God requires people to help save ourselves). There are just LOTS of shades of lipstick to put on that "Free Will" pig (including Catholic).

That's not very nice of you.
I don't care to debate this right now, but free will starts in Genesis and ends in Revelation.

And I'm not sure Jethro believes in monergism.

 

[GodsGrace]

No.

Right.
So if the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth...
Why do we differ?
Then HOW do we know THE TRUTH?
There can only be one truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

If God gave us official "representatives' then YES, those would be my primary theologians. But this relies on the premise the God has assign such a thing, which I do not agree to. God does give the gift of teaching to some but that is in no way infallible.



You're probably much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.

In 1409, There Were Three Simultaneous Popes - The Historian's Hut​

Source: https://thehistorianshut.com/2017/02/21/in-1409-there-were-three-simultaneous-popes/

Aside: Maybe this is protestant propaganda ... giggle



Well ... I clarify the need for WORKS to be saved
WORKS are an effect of FAITH, not a cause of salvation. No works indications you were not saved (unless you were the thief on the cross... giggle) Your statement would have works as a cause of salvation and I have it as an effect.
Lot of verses saying we are not saved by works ... you do have James going for your side .. no need to dig further for now

Will have to read my post again.
Too tired now.
Signing off...

And no, my catholicism has nothing to do with anything. More in the AM.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We are not chosen.
We are not elected.
At least not the way you understand it.

We ARE chosen but based on something God let us know about.
He let us know HOW to become saved since that's why Jesus died.
Why have Jesus be sacrificed if salvation didn't depend on Him?
Why all those OT sacrifices if, anyway, God knew by chosing the person, who would be saved and who would not.
Whimsical God you believe in.
He's not even honest with His favorite creation...us.
Even prepared a Garden for us and all.

Yeah, we disagree on this one. You have 6-8 verses relying on ambiguous words ALL, EVERYONE and WORLD and conjecture of Prevenient Grace ... I have 400 verses, logic and the attributes of God that are contrary to your position
.... IMO

I've said it many times to you, so I'm not repeating it here.
Read Ephesians 2:8 AGAIN.

I have. We will agree to disagree

At least I have a 99% chance of knowing of my salvation.
YOU do NOT.
Must I explain why,,,,again?

No ... (there are many verses alluding to Assurance of Salvation for both sides of the argument.

Nothing is dependent on our understanding anything.

This is untrue. Faith requires knowledge of something to believe in by definition. (maybe you are thinking along another line, not a major point)

You think only scholars can be saved?

No. My point was that God favors people of less intelligenced ... I gave the verse. Again.... this is not a big deal ... going on tangent

You have a problem with the above because of your belief in Limited Atonement.
I can explain it again if you wish...not that it would do any good.

Limited Atonement and whether Muslim (who don't know God/Christ) are apples and oranges.
Limitied Atonement NOT EQUAL 'anyone without salvific faith'

If a Muslim believes in God Father, the creator, and worships Him and obeys Him....
He is also worshipping Jesus.
Is Jesus God or not?
Or, maybe they believe in Jesus too but are afraid to get their head cut off.
Only God knows the heart.

Muslim's doctrine say Jesus is NOT GOD. Therefore, they do not know God and do not worship God. They don't have faith in God which is needed for salvation. I can give 10ish verses saying Christ is the ONLY way. By definition Muslims deny 'the Way'. The logic is black and white ... they're toast.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Will have to read my post again.
Too tired now.
Signing off...

Phew .... I was about to concede do to attrition

You can have the LAST WORD tomorrow .... I surrender ... *giggle*

 

[Hopeful 2]

I can't help it that the Catholic church can't make the proper distinction between justification and sanctification. But, call it what you want, a person is not made righteous as Paul explains the receiving of the gift of God's righteousness by what Catholics call progressive justification.

A person is made perfectly righteous, one time for all time, immediately upon believing in the gospel message. And it is on that basis, alone, that a person has the perfect righteousness required to be translated into the kingdom of light. You do not work for the righteousness of God by which a person becomes saved that was already gifted to you the moment you believed.

The Catholic church is guilty of the sin of the Galatians who started out in the Spirit (assuming Catholics start out in the Spirit), and who then sought to accomplish through rituals and works what had already been accomplished for them when they first believed the gospel message, thus making Christ of no value to them in justification. They had fallen from grace. They were severed from Christ.

So much for gradual sanctification... eh?

 

[Hopeful 2]

wondering , I'm pretty sure this is where the rub is for those who think you work by faith to achieve the righteousness by which you are allowed to enter into the kingdom of God.

If you ( meaning anybody) do not believe that you receive the perfect righteousness of God required to enter the kingdom of God the moment you believe the gospel, one time for all time, not needing it to be given again, then you literally have not believed the gospel of Christ. You have believed another gospel, one of justification by means of faithful works. You are by definition an unbeliever.

Are you perfectly righteous?
A non-sinner?