What am I supposed to make of John 17:3

[Imagican]

Ok Mondar. You say that 'first born' refers to does NOT refer to 'first created' but rather a 'position'. Now, out of ALL the words that could have been used to depict such a 'title', the HEAD, for example, why do you SUPPOSE that 'firstborn' was USED? Do you really mean to tell me and others that FIRST has significance but BORN doesn't?

In the Chapter that you refer to SO MUCH you will find the words as offered. I believe it's somewhere within the first ten verses of John or so.

God IS in heaven so OBVIOUSLY the verses do not LITERALLY mean what you would have me BELIEVE that they do. God IS the head of Christ so He, obviously couldn't have MADE God the HEAD. The Father KNOWS information that the Son doesn't. And Christ stated CLEARLY that what He offered was GIVEN Him by the Father and that He LEARNED what He knew FROM the Father. These statements CLEARLY show that EVERYTHING was NOT created by Christ.

Mondar, Christ being in existence at the time of the creation of man does NOT offer anything so far as 'trinity' is concerned. If it offers ANYTHING, then that would be a sort of duality rather than a 'trinity'.

No, the angels did NOT create us and it was indeed in the image of God that we were created.

I will not get into this argument concerning the accuracy in which scripture was translated. That is one that could take many hours of my time that I do NOT have to spend. Suffice is to offer that IF you 'truly' desire to KNOW, the information is READILY available for you to see. And the implications are JUST as obvious as to WHY certain things were alter to suit the desires of those that altered them. Enough said on this subject.

It is VERY likely that we were given attributes of both God AND His Son. And in this respect, it would make PERFECT sense that we were created in THEIR image, (plural).

So, if we decide to 'create' a concept, it's irrelevant as to HOW we create it so long as it FITS? The twelve apostles and Christ Himself offered no such concept. But THREE hundred years AFTER Christ's death, God or Christ DECIDED to THEN allow the understanding of this concept of 'trinity'? And then, NOT BY those of Jewish decent, (like ALL of the apostles and Christ Himself), but revealed this concept to Gentiles instead? Hmmm. ... Makes perfect sense to me. The Word was unable to communicate to us what a specific group of men WAS. And then a group of men that were willing to destroy others who refused to accept THEIR concept. It's getting clearer and clearer now.

Mondar, I don't believe that you truly want to 'go there'. For I do NOT BELIEVE that YOU are able to define the 'trinity' correctly. In this I mean NO insult. What I mean is that if I asked TEN people to 'tell me what 'trinity' is and what it isn't', (and these BEING those that profess a belief in such), I don't believe that I would get the SAME answer from ANY ONE OF THEM. Been there and done that.

So, if you think that you are trying to offer something that I haven't already heard about a 'thousand times' or so, then you are probably mistaking me for 'someone else'.

Once again, not trying to be 'silly' or uncooporative simply for the sake of such, but I have studied and prayed and find that 'trinity' has NOTHING to offer in addition to what was offered by Christ and His apostles. I find NO benefit to this 'creation' of a concept of a 'triune God'. NONE. God is the Father of Christ and we are His Children. This much I KNOW and need no further attempt at defining them beyond what has been offered up IN scripture. It's so EASY a 'child could understand'. But when we attempt to understand and accept such things as 'trinity', it then takes on the complexity of 'rocket science' and I personally don't believe that this was 'meant to be' in order to receieve what God has to offer through His Son. This IS, of course, my personal opinion.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Paidion]

Tell us, was Isaiah lying ?

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:6)

Its amazing how those professing belief in God cannot accept HIS word that shows very much so that the trinity concept is fact....

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:6)

maybe Isaiah was a lunatic...

Follower, are you sure that Isaiah wrote that the child born would be called "The everlasting Father"? If so, what is the basis for your certainty? Just because you find it that way in your Bible? Your Old Testament was translated from the later Masoretic text. Have you ever noticed that Jesus' quotes from the OT differ considerable from the OT passages which He quoted? That's because the original Hebrew, the Egyptian text, and the text found in the Dead Sea Scrolls found in Cave 4 are similar to Jesus' quotes and similar to the Septuagint translation from Hebrew into Greek several hundred years B.C. However, the Masoretic text, the basis of modern Old Testaments differs considerably.

Not even all Septuagints are identical. One version quotes the Isaiah passage not as "The everlasting Father" but "Father of the age to come." That fits Jesus the Son of God perfectly. For in the coming age, the culmination of the Kingdom of God when the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdom of God and His Messiah, then Jesus will be the Father of that age, since He will rule.

We should also realize that the primary meaning of the prophecy (in context) does not concern Christ, but Isaiah's son (See ch 8:1-4). It is also clear that even the immediate context does not refer directly to Christ.

Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. Isaiah 9:7


Obviously Jesus didn't reign in His kingdom from Isaiah's time forth. The Septuagint renders it "from now on". Isaiah is writing about his son. Was Isaiah's son "the mighty God" and "the everlasting Father"?

 

[sk0rpi0n]

That's true. There is distinction between Jesus the man and Jesus the Word of God. To My wife I'm her husband, to my boss I'm the employee and to the IRS I'm the taxpayer. I'm many but one.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Yes, you can be husband, employee and taxpayer and still be the same person. I know thats a popular technique used to explain the concept of the trinity in general. But considering John 17:3, that analogy doesnt help your argument, because said verse CLEARLY distinguishes Jesus as being sent by the only true God.
And further more God remains God to ALL throughtout the old testament and the new testament. He may have sent agents throughout history, Jesus being the most important and special one, but God remains God, period. With no one like Him. (Plenty of OT evidence to support this)

Is God's Word of God or is God's Word separate from God?

"word of God" is NOT as interchangeable with Jesus Christ, as you are trying to make it seem.

Because apparently, the word of God was sent to several others before Jesus. Its not an exclusive title of Jesus.

Im sure you wont understands the following OT verses as

In the eighth month of the second year of Darius, Jesus Christ came to the prophet Zechariah son of Berekiah, the son of Iddo.
-Zechariah 1:1



But this Jesus Christ came to Shemaiah the man of God:
-1 Kings 12:22



And the Levites carried the ark of God with the poles on their shoulders, as Moses had commanded in accordance with Jesus Christ.
-1 Chronicles 15:15


That said, its better and more honest to just read John 17:3 the way it is written, instead of bringing in the "word of God" angle into it.

 

[Cornelius]

Now can you answer the question, if Jesus was not God, then why does Paul teach...

Col 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

Wow, nice scripture so if we take THIS fullness of Christ , then and compare it with this one, what do we get?

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:


Kind of makes my head spin...............

 

[Rick W]

sk0rpi0n,
Again, do you believe Christ is the Word of God or not?

 

[SonByAdoption]

Imagican wrote:

“Most would contend that when 'we' have been offered something concerning eternity that it means a 'literal' eternity. But in reality, could eternity NOT simply be in reference to the existence of man?â€Â

No, eternity doesn’t just have to do with the existence of man. Before we were created and our world, heaven and the rest of the universe and all the angels were already created. He’s just not the Creator of out planet but of everything. I believe time started when God created the first created thing whatever that was whenever that was so before that was when there was just God and no time then that’s when eternity was.

So Imagican let me ask you something about your God. Would it have been possible for your God to have an only begotten Son who’s not created, not made out of nothing like all created things are but actually born out of God so having the same nature and equally divine and having self existence so he could exist outside of time in eternity? Even though there is no trinity and Jesus is not a part of God that doesn’t take away from his divinity in any way.

 

[SonByAdoption]

Truly the Word was God but the Word was not "the God" who he was with.
I'm seeing so much confusion on this John 17 post about John1:1,2 I think you will get a better understanding

If you will please look at a greek interlinear bible at your local bookstore,library or even free online you should see that two definite articles"the's" were left out of most of the english translations of John 1:1,2

En archE eime ho logos kai ho logos emi pros Ho theos kai theos eimi ho logos houtos eimi en archE pros ho theos

In beginning was the word and the word was with the God and God was the word the same was beginning with the God

John thought it was important to seperate the Word who was God (equally divine with his Father who He got his nature from)with "The God" The Supreme Being his Father

 

[SonByAdoption]

Rick W: wrote
Is Christ
the Word of God or isn't He?

The verse could also be read as:
only true God, and "His Word"

I thought "the Word of God" was a good description of Christ. Hey, if it's good enough for the apostles in that they referred to Him as such then it's certainly good enough for me.

Yes the apostle John did refer to Jesus as the symbol of the Word but the apostle Paul called him the Wisdom.

“…Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.â€Â†But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:â€Â1st Corin 1:24,30

Solomon talked about Wisdom’s birth in eternity

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth ... Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth ... When he prepared the heavens, I was there ... when he appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. (Proverbs 8:22-25, 27, 29-31)

If Solomon was talking about God's literal wisdom than that would mean that there was a time in eternity that God didn't have wisdom. Surely this is Jesus talking about himself being born from the Father in eternity for He is "God's only begotten Son"

 

[Imagican]

Thankyou so much for making this topic. I'd like to talk about the word true.

According to Strong's the word "true" in greek is "ἀληθινÌ alÄ“thinos...b)it contrasts realities with their semblances"

Paul says that the sanctuary that was on earth was a copy of the ORIGINAL one that was in heaven. "... the TRUE tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man""For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the TRUE; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us" Hbr8:2;9:24

Jesus might not be the "only true/original God" but he is God's only true Son.

"Adam... begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth" Gen5:3 Like all humans Adam's son looked alot like him but when God had his "only begotten son" in eternity He was exactly like God in everyway for the Bible tells us that Jesus is "is the image of the invisible God""and the express image of his person"Col 1:15; Hbr 1:3

Firstly, God IS Spirit. Second, God IS Love. Christ obviously exists in the IMAGE of God IN THE FLESH. But this is NOT an offering that Jesus IS God. Christ came and offered us a 'glimpse' into the TRUE LOVE of God. Just as a man is able to have a son that is in HIS image, that son will NEVER be HIM.

But, when we consider that Christ HIMSELF offered that the THINGS that He offered were NOT His OWN but GIVEN HIM by The Father, we can CLEARLY see that the use of the word 'image' is NOT in relation to 'an exact duplicate' but one with a reflection of that which God IS. Christ stated that what He offered was that which He had LEARNED from the Father. Now, I ask, IS God ABLE to LEARN? How can one be 'all knowing' IF they are STILL ABLE TO LEARN?


According to Strong's the greek word for "express image" is "ÇαÃÂακÄήàcharaktÄ“r...precise reproduction in every respect"

Jesus was born in eternity with self existance just like God knowing all things just like God and having all power and having omnipresence.

I find it amazing that such a statement could be offered. For Christ OPENLY admitted that there were things that HE did NOT KNOW but ONLY the Father.

So even if Jesus is not the only true God or any part of any triune God he is equal with God in divinity because just as we give our children our human nature God gave His Son His divine nature.

Another statement that is not completely accurate from a Biblical standpoint. For we KNOW that God IS The Head of Christ. We also know that what power Christ possessed was GIVEN Him BY The Father. And we have the words of witness that Christ PRAYED TO The Father.

How one can assume from these FACTS that Christ was EQUAL to God is beyond my understanding. A statement from those that did NOT EVEN BELIEVE that Christ was The Son is hardly PROOF of ANYTHING other than their OWN 'lack of understanding'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Imagican wrote:

“Most would contend that when 'we' have been offered something concerning eternity that it means a 'literal' eternity. But in reality, could eternity NOT simply be in reference to the existence of man?â€Â

No, eternity doesn’t just have to do with the existence of man. Before we were created and our world, heaven and the rest of the universe and all the angels were already created. He’s just not the Creator of out planet but of everything. I believe time started when God created the first created thing whatever that was whenever that was so before that was when there was just God and no time then that’s when eternity was.

So Imagican let me ask you something about your God. Would it have been possible for your God to have an only begotten Son who’s not created, not made out of nothing like all created things are but actually born out of God so having the same nature and equally divine and having self existence so he could exist outside of time in eternity? Even though there is no trinity and Jesus is not a part of God that doesn’t take away from his divinity in any way.

I would not nor have I EVER denied the 'divinity' of Christ. As heir, as the 'only begotten', that He now sits at the right hand of God, that His attributes were given Him by the Father, that He was sent BY the Father, all these point to His divinity.

But we also have the words offered up that God is the HEAD of Christ. This is PURE indication that He is NOT COMPLETELY EQUAL in that even HE has a Father. The ONLY way in which He could be COMPLETELY equal would be to BE The Father.

Christ IS The Son of God. God IS The Father of Christ. These things are without arguement between ANY two persons that have read The Word. But there are those that say that Jesus IS God. Not a 'part of the Godhead', but GOD Himself. This leads to a 'belief' in a 'false Christ' by replacing God WITH Christ.

I can sit here and quote scripture all day long that offers a DISTINCT DIFFERENCE between Father and Son, between Christ and His Father. If that distinction exists, then Christ is NOT God HImself. A 'part of God'? No doubt. But God IS God and Christ IS Christ. God IS The Father and HEAD of the Son who IS Christ. And, in this, there is no need to 'talk around in circles'. For this is so very basic that even 'child could understand it'. But try to explain a 'triune God' to a child. Explain to them that The Father and Son are simply two part of the SAME God and that there is even this 'third entity', The Spirit, and that IT is God as well. Tell a child that the Father and Son are the SAME and see what strange look will come upon their face. A look of bewilderment. For this is NOT plain and clear understanding to the adults that profess a belief in it, so how much MORE confusing to a child?

There IS God, The Father, and then there is Christ, His Son. It's REALLY that simple. We also know that The Son now SITS at the right hand OF God, His Father. This plainly shows that the Father, God, IS the Head of Christ as Christ IS The Head of man.

We have words that offer indication if not outright understanding in that man was created FOR Christ. Taking into consideration that order of preiminence offered up in scripture, it points to nothing other than Christ being a PART of the Godhead but ONLY in that He IS The Son, a part of the family of God. But this NEVER takes away from the Father, God Himself, BEING The Father or HEAD of Christ.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

For those that seem unfamiliar or choose to ignore:

John 1:14 (King James Version)
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 15:15 (King James Version)
15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; .for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you
John 17:23 (King James Version)
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 19:7 (King James Version)
7The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 4 (King James Version)
24And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 16
25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Now, if EVERY statement that I have made has NOT been here backed by scripture, then I stand reproved.

But, for them that ARE able to read and understand, DO SO. Regardless of the attempts at MAKING Christ GOD Himself, these scripture PURELY show that God IS The FATHER and Christ IS HIS SON. Both PARTS of the SAME Godhead but God AS the Head and Christ AS THE SON.

These are NOT MY words folks. These words are offered as plain as can be.

You CANNOT have it both ways. Either Christ IS God Himself, which would make Him the FATHER as well, or He is 'something different'.

Christ is a PART of God as EVERY child is a PART of HIs FATHER. That is wihtout doubt. But this 'trinity' would make God and the Son TWO parts of the SAME God. This is simply NOT offered up in scripture.

Does ANYONE NOT KNOW what the word MADE means? Do I NEED to offer definition of such a SIMPLE word?

What I have offered above is ONLY the beginning. Now, let us move on. For the sake of NOT offering posts of eccesive length, I'll break em up.

So, read on:

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Here is MORE to show the relationship of Christ to the Father; GOD Himself;

1 Corinthians 1
1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
2 Corinthians 5
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Galatians 4
1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Philippians 2
1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Boy, does it GET any clearer than this? EVERYTHING that Christ IS. Everything that Christ HAS. All that concerns Christ was GIVEN Him BY the Father. And WHO IS The Father? GOD!!!

NOt over yet. There is MUCH more to come.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Rick W]

I'll ask you also MEC,
Do you believe Christ is the Word of God?
Not what you prefer. Is He or Isn't He?

 

[sk0rpi0n]

sk0rpi0n,
Again, do you believe Christ is the Word of God or not?

Yes.

Now, does that mean that I should understand these OT quotes with "word of God" as...

In the eighth month of the second year of Darius, Jesus Christ came to the prophet Zechariah son of Berekiah, the son of Iddo.
-Zechariah 1:1

But this Jesus Christ came to Shemaiah the man of God:
-1 Kings 12:22

And the Levites carried the ark of God with the poles on their shoulders, as Moses had commanded in accordance with Jesus Christ.
-1 Chronicles 15:15

If not, why so?

---------------------------------------------------------------
And also, if Jesus is the word of God and if (according to John 1:3) the word became flesh, its logical that Jesus is God. But, why is it John 17:3 (and a lot of other NT verses) refer to Jesus, the word of God as being sent by/ subordinate/unequal to God.
Sounds like a contradiction to me.

 

[Rick W]

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. What God spoke (that is, His intent, His purpose, His will) in the OT became as man. Christ is God's Word. Therein lies the mystery.
In The NT Christ has become as man. Without the incarnation there is no man, the Christ.

You believe Christ is God's Word, that's good. How do you separate God's will from God? For through His Word, sent to be in the flesh, incarnate, we know His will. The Word of God became Jesus Christ.

In the OT God spoke to..
In the NT God spoke through...

 

[SonByAdoption]

follower of Christ wrote

That Jesus acknowledges the Father as the 'One True God' doesnt negate other scriptures that show that Jesus is PART of that 'One True God, now does it ? [quote:1h042jbc] :naughty

Exactly why I don't believe in the trinity. It teaches that Jesus is only one third god. Well the Father is one hundred percent God all by himself. Even though the only begotten Son is called God sometimes because he inherited his Father's divine nature when he was born in eternity he still never is called "The only True God"Jn17:3"One God"1st tim2:5"One God and Father of All"Eph4:6 "Most High"Luke8:28"Ancient of Days"daniel 7:9

If you would say that the Only Begotten Son is God over all created things i would have to agree with you. But that still doesn't make the trinity true. For the Father is not only God over all created things but He's God over his only begotten Son as well and that's why the Bible calls him the God and Father of all and the only true/original God.

[quote:1h042jbc]Tell us, was Isaiah lying ?
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:6)

Its amazing how those professing belief in God cannot accept HIS word that shows very much so that the trinity concept is fact....

God’s only begotten Son born from His person in eternity is Our Mighty God

Follower of Christ quoted

“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.†John 20:28

[/quote:1h042jbc][/quote:1h042jbc]
But Our Mighty God is not His own God or His own Father.

“…I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to]my God, and your God.†John 20:17


Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet.Psalms 110:1"World English Bible

You quoted Hebrews 1:8 but I’d like to quote the next verse

“Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even]thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.†Hebrews 1:9

The Father calls himself the God of His Son but the Father has no God and no Father.

The prophecy of Jesus being “the everlasting Father†could not have started until his death and resurrection.

“I[am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore…†Revelation 1:18

Even though He is not His own Father He is our Father because His Father gave us to Him.

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.†John 17:9
“And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, [colr=#FF0000]Behold I and the children which God hath given me.â€Â[/color] Hebrews 2:13

 

[Imagican]

I'll ask you also MEC,
Do you believe Christ is the Word of God?
Not what you prefer. Is He or Isn't He?

Rick,

I will answer this question to the best of my ability.

YES. Christ IS The Word of God, but this is NOT to say that The Word of God IS Christ.

Now, the difference in MY understanding and that of many others is that I do NOT believe The Word to BE what many have chosen, (due to being TAUGHT 'trinity'), to believe that it MEANS.

As I offered above, Christ came and gave us information that had been GIVEN Him of His Father; God; HIS WORD. This is without doubt, TRUE? This being the case, what Christ offered WAS God's Word, NOT HIS OWN.

Using the title Word, is NOT the same as saying that the Word of God IS Christ. For the Word of God IS The Word of God and it was simply delivered to mankind BY Christ, His Son, whom God had GIVEN to deliver.

Is Christ LITERALLY The Word? Only in TITLE so far as a descriptive use of His purpose. In other words. I believe that God's Word IS a PART of God. And I believe that Christ came and GAVE us God's Word. God's Word existed PREVIOUS to Christ. For it to be GIVEN Him, IT must have existed PREVIOUS to being GIVEN.

An easier way to discern what I offer is to ask these questions:

Can Christ exist WITHOUT God, the Father? Can God exist WITHOUT Christ? I believe the answer to these questions is that NO, Christ could NOT have exsited without God. But God most certainly could exist WITHOUT Christ. For every indication from a BIBLICAL standpoint offers that Christ was GIVEN what He possesses and given His attributes BY God; The Father. For this to BE truth, there HAD to be 'a time' BEFORE Christ obtained what He was GIVEN.

As with ANY son, there MUST be a Father FIRST. The concept of Father and son is ONLY able to be demonstrated IN THIS MANNER. The TERMS Father and Son HAVE significant AND SPECIFIC conotation in their VERY definition. There Cannot BE a Son WITHOUT a Father. But there can CERTAINLY BE a God, who is NOT a Father. For PREVIOUS to OUR creation, God was NOT 'Our Father'. Only AFTER our CREATION did HE BECOME Our Father.

We have the WORD of God offered THROUGH Christ that STATES that what Christ offered to US was GIVEN Him BY THE FATHER. This is NOT some mystical 'guess work'. These are the words offered up by CHRIST Himself.

Then, we can clearly see as we study further that Christ's very position as The Son was GIVEN Christ. The position that He possesses RIGHT NOW was GIVEN Him BY THE FATHER.

When Satan tempted Christ, we can clearly SEE that the means by which Christ resisted was through The Word of God. Not AS The Word of God. He did NOT offer up 'something NEW'. He simply resisted through the USE of God's WORD, (NOT WORDS OF HIS OWN). Although there is definitely the ability of those that choose to follow a 'concept', rather than what has been directly offered, to BELIEVE that it was the opposite.

Rick, take 'trinity' out of the equation. What has been LOST? From my perspective. NOTHING other than confusion. For I am NOT unable to UNDERSTAND the concept of 'Father and Son'. Not a problem AT ALL. I can clearly understand this relationship and can explain it to others without ANY confusion whatsoever. Even a child.

But, if I interject this 'trinity' concept, at this point I am more or less forced to GUESS as to the relationship. I am most certainly placed in a position to wonder about MY OWN understanding. For IF you ask TEN people; 'What IS 'trinity', you will most likely get TEN DIFFERENT definitions. NOw, what have we been told? We have been told that we ARE to be of ONE mind and ONE heart. How is this even possible through such a concept that cannot even be successfully defined and agreed upon by those that ACCEPT IT?

God did NOT leave us ignorant of HIS IDENTITY. He did NOT leave us ignorant of the identity of HIS SON. That there have been confusion over a few statements and a few words does NOT take away from the FACT that we have NOT been left to our OWN devices to discern WHO God and His Son ARE. He didn't leave the first followers of Christ to DISCERN their OWN understanding of Father and Son and He hasn't left US in this position EITHER.

So, IS Christ THE WORD. In a sense, YES. But, is the Word of God CHRIST, I don't THINK SO. For the Word would have PRE-EXIST if it was even ABLE to be GIVEN.

It says in John that The Word was made the LIGHT of men. So 'the LIGHT of men' would have been a much more descriptive TITLE of Christ. For Christ, THROUGH The Word of God, brought this LIGHT, (word), to men. And to take it one step further, we could substitute the word LIGHT for TRUTH or LOVE. Truth is a tough one without love so they are really unable to be separate when we discuss The Word.

I hope that this is able to be digested WITHOUT throwing out accusation and inuendo. Previous someone stated that they didn't understand how someone could profess a 'belief' in God WITHOUT acceptance of 'trinity'. I question how such a statement could even be offered by ONE OF HIS CHILDREN. For I do NOT only believe in God, I KNOW GOD as HE KNOWS ME. But it only goes to further illustrate how 'dangerous' this doctrine of 'trinity' IS. For there have been, since it's inception, those that would attempt to FORCE others to accept it through practically ANY means at their disposal. Through intimidation, threat of death or bodily harm, through EX-communication, etc..........Whatever means within their abilities. Now I ask THIS of YOU: Is this the example that was offered by Our Savior? Did HE threaten us with punishment IF we did NOT accept 'trinity'? How about ANYTHING? I seem to remember that; as they nailed Him to a cross for being guilty of NOTHING other than 'the TRUTH', His response was to offer up, "Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do''.

Now, isn't Christ to BE our example? This being the case, I can honestly offer up that I have PERSONALLY been treated like a leaper, or WORSE, by those that profess a belief in 'trinity' simply by stating that I DON'T. Reacon this would have been how Christ would have treated someone.

Now, what is the indication of a 'doctrine' that would be instituted by such treatment of others to FORCE them to accept it? what doctrine of such hatred could POSSIBLY BE from ABOVE?

We KNOW that those that created it used force, both harmful and even deadly, to instill this doctrine into the congregation. The evidence and PROOF exist even though many would choose to ignore or deny it.

Other than 'trinity', I have witnessed few other doctrines that have so adamantly been persued to the detriment of OTHERS. Is this what we witness throughout the Word concerning the OFFERING of TRUTH through God's prophets and even His very own Son?

We have been told to compare scripture to scriture to come to understanding. Some would offer that THIS IS what 'trinty' CAME from. i can't believe that for a second. For NO DOCTRINE that separates brother from brother or sister from sister is CAPABLE of being 'from above'. And we can CLEARLY see that once this 'idea' was conceived, that is EXACTLY what it served to DO.

I have partaken in the LOVE that God has towards usward. No one can 'take this away from me'. So, when someone tried to intimidate me into an unatural belief in ANY doctrine, then I can easily 'STAND UP' and offer that it CANNOT be correct. NO DOCTRINE that teaches ANY SORT of hatred or strife towards one's brothers and sisters CAN BE from above. IMPOSSIBLE.

WE ARE NOT ABLE TO JUDGE THE HEARTS OF OTHERS. But we are certainly given information on how to judge BEHAVIOR. And we are given ENOUGH information to be ABLE to discern the REASON for certain behavior.

At the time this doctrine was introduced, MOST of those exposed to it were NOT even ABLE to READ The Word and discern for themselves. This doctrine, once established, was FORCED upon them by those that created it. And in such a manner that MOST were not even able to discern the truth one way or the other. For there were FEW Bibles and even FEWER that were ABLE or allowed to read them.

Rick, what if 'trinity' were introduced TODAY. What if there had BEEN no doctrine of 'trinity' until TODAY. How well do you think it would 'float' if introduced NOW?

I'll offer an answer to this: It wouldn't. IF those that have been taught of God and His Son had NOT been exposed to this doctrine previous, if it were today, it would be a 'kind of joke' in the Christian community. And Rick, I can assure you that it was NO DIFFERENT when it was introduced seventeen hundred years ago. There were MANY that refuted it until those that insisted upon it were able to gain ENOUGH control to stiffle such resistance.

Is Christ THE WORD OF GOD. In that it was HE that was given to bring such to man, YES. Is The Word of God Christ? Not possible. For Christ Himself offered that what He offered was GIVEN HIM to give to us. So, if the Word of God is Christ, it is ALSO those that have received it. That would make those that have heard and accepted it The Word as well. This being the case, then there are MANY more PARTS of God than THREE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[nadab]

Jesus, when called "Good Teacher" by a man, said in reply: "Why do you call me good ? Nobody is good, except one, God".(Mark 10:18) Hence, Jesus clearly recognized that only God and not himself, was worthy of being "good" in the complete sense, that of moral excellence. He plainly distinguished himself from God, as at John 17:3 in which he calls his Father "the only true God" and then speaks of himself as "the one whom you sent forth". He further prayed that he had "glorified you (his Father and the "only true God") on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do."(verse 4)

When Jesus was visited by Nicodemus during the night, Nicodemus told him: "Rabbi, we know that you as a teacher have come from God; for no one can perform these signs that you perform unless God is with him."(John 3:2) Nicodemus could see for himself that Jesus was not God, but that he came from God and that God was with him. Jesus, in turn, replied that "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son...For God sent forth his Son....for the world to be saved through him."(John 3:16,17)

Jesus clearly identifies himself, not as God, but as his "only-begotten Son" who was "sent forth" by God. This harmonizes with John 17:3, in which Jesus said that he was "sent forth" by God and with John 7:16,17, whereby Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." He further said that "if anyone desires to do His will (and not Jesus own will), he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality."

Jesus, thus distinguished the Father as God and he as "the one sent forth" by God. In speaking with the Jews yet more, he told them that "I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and you do not know him.†(John 7:28) Despite being in a covenant relationship with God (Ex 19:5,6), the nation of Israel, as a whole, did not know God, nor were willing to listen to the “one sent forth†by God, Jesus the Christ, his “anointed oneâ€Â.

Of Jesus, God said: “Look ! My servant, on whom I keep hold fast ! My chosen one, whom my soul has approved ! I have put my spirit in him.â€Â(Isa 42:1) Matthew quotes from this scripture, at Matthew 12:18, and applies it to Jesus. Thus, Jesus is God’s “servantâ€Â, his “chosen oneâ€Â, who has God’s approval, and hence has God’s spirit within him.

 

[Imagican]

nadab,

Exellent post.

You have brought up much that PLAINLY shows the DISTINCTION between God; The Father, and Christ: His Son. How so many are inable to clearly SEE this is beyond me.

At one time, there was a definite FORCE placed upon the Christian community to BELIEVE in this 'trinity'. But NOW that there is NO LONGER the ability of others to FORCE their beliefs upon others, I find it difficult to understand WHY anyone would CHOOSE to follow such a concept or docrine.

It is either ONE way or the OTHER. EIther Christ IS God Himself or He is NOT. Yet here we have a concept that offers; ''well, yeah, BUT". I don't believe that ANY doctrine of truth is offered in such a manner. Man is CERTAINLY able to 'create' such 'wishy washy' doctrine. But I PERSONALLY don't believe that God has EVER offered it as such.

Firstborn, Son, Right Hand of God, sent, Light, Truth, Beloved Son, Lord.

Father, God, Creator, Heavenly Father.

We have these distinctions.

And then we have the words of HIM who we ARE to BELIEVE that He IS the Son. We have a 'voice from Heaven' offering: "This IS my Beloved Son in whom """"I"""" am well pleased".

"Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do".

The Father is GREATER than I.

I return to MY FATHER.

We have numerous scripture that offers that God IS, (understand this), God IS The Father.

And we have numerous scripture that offers that Christ IS, (get this), Christ IS The Son.

If the Father is GREATER than The Son, even if these TWO are members of the FAMILY of God, one is most definitely DISTINCT from the OTHER. Since we HAVE God, The Father, and DON'T have God the Son, then this concept is 'man-made' and NOT offered us in scripture. And notice that this title IS USED by those that seek to strengthen this concept of 'trinity', but this title is NEVER offered us in scripture.

Yes, Thomas called Christ God. Ok. The religious leader accused, (or CALLED), Christ 'of the Devil'. But how many out there BELIEVE THIS? Or would USE THIS STATEMENT to form their DOCTRINE?

ndab,

I commend you for your ability to overcome and stand for what you believe. So many have been 'drawn into' this doctrine for the preasure that others place upon them to accept it. Christ NEVER manipulated His followers in this manner and I find it difficult to understand how THIS concept is so difficult to grasp. So many, for so long, ran around spouting out: WWJD. Now, USE this in a disection of the doctrine of 'trinity'. WWJD? Would Jesus have HIDDEN this from us? Would Jesus have offer intimidation to FORCE others to follow the idea? And, wouldn't Jesus have informed His apostles of this doctrine IF it was of such import? Answer these questions and then discern the truth behind such a doctrine.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[nadab]

Hello Imagican,
The trinity doctrine did not originate with Christendom, but came from ancient Babylon. This ancient world power had one triad of gods made up of Sin (the moon-god), Shamash (the sun-god), and the goddess Ishtar (queen of the heavens). Another triad was composed of the devils Labartu, Labasu, and Akhkhazu. Later, ancient Egypt had its trinity of gods, such as the triad of Osiris, Isis (his wife), and Horus (his son), with these being the principal trinity or "holy family" among Egypt's gods and goddesses.

With the arrival of Jesus as the Christ in 29 C.E., he established the "one faith" (Eph 4:5) that is pleasing to God. Yet, Jesus clearly recognized that the "pure religion"(James 1:27, King James Bible) that he himself laid the foundation of, would in matter of centuries following his death, be completely corrupted. He gave an illustration of "a man that sowed fine seed in his field." He then says that "while men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left."(Matt 13:24,25)

Jesus is the "man that sowed fine seed" or established the Christian congregation. Yet, he prophetically stated that, "while men were sleeping" or after the death of the apostles, with the apostle John most likely passing off the scene in about 100 C.E., that a corrupting of the divine teachings would be distorted and eventually unrecognizable. Hence, Jesus prophesied that there would be an apostasizing or "falling away" from the congregation (Mat 16:18) or body of ones chosen to serve as "kings and priests"(Rev 1:6), the "wheat", genuine Christians.

This apostasizing was beginning to show its face even while the apostles were alive. In about 56 C.E., the apostle Paul gave parting counsel and told the Ephesian elders: "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among the flock and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."(Acts 20:29,30)

Hence, from within the Christian congregation, there would arise those who would "speak twisted things". Some forty years later, in about 96 C.E, the apostle John said that this apostasizing was beginning to bloom, for he wrote: "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrist; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour."(1 John 2:18)

What did John mean by the "last hour" ? That within a relatively short period of time, the Christian congregation that Jesus founded, would be corrupted by "antichrist"(meaning "against [or instead of] Christ") influence. By denying Jesus as the "only-begotten Son of God"(John 3:16), but rather placing him on a level equal to God puts individuals in the class as "antichrist", for these deny that "Jesus is the Christ" or God's "anointed one".(Ps 2:2) Placing him equal to God, as part of a trinity, makes Jesus what he himself said he was not - God.(John 3:16; 10:36; 14:28; 20:17)