Bible Study What "belief" means in the Gospels- Seed&Sower

[cyberjosh]

**Please note first of all that I have actually written this originally in a paper/presentation format in a word document so this arguement is coherent from beginning to end. It does not so much propose a solution as does an extensive study on the word "belief/believe(s)" in the context of the Gospels (thus refining the arguement to what Jesus said specifically concerning faith and salvation). So please don't just jump in with some quote from a Pauline epistle or otherwise without first evaluating my argument in its given context which I bring to focus for you. Unfortunately in my Word document it is 4 pages long, and would make for a whopper of a post, so I will make several smaller posts. But remember what I said, that this is a coherent study from beginning to end and evaluates the openning question by refining it to present the final questions, which will hopefully result in a verdict from the reader which we can discuss.

Now without further adieu:

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The Seed and the Sower

In the parable of the Seed and the Sower what is the objective reality of the person’s salvation who was represented by the seed that fell on stony ground? Did they really have salvation or was their faith in vain and not unto salvation? Matthew 13:20-21 says of this example, “And the one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word, and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediatelyhe stumbles.†Luke 8:13 a parallel verse also says, “And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. †Now we see here that they had something that could be called “belief†but that evaporated in times of testing and they stumble.
Now in the Gospel of John after Jesus fed the 5000 he is revisited by the people he fed on the other side and they seek the bread of life, which Jesus offers. Jesus says to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst†(John 6:35). He goes on to say “All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out†(John 6:37), “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up on the last day†(John 6:40), “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day†(John 6:44), “Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me†(John 6:45), “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life†(John 6:47), “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever†(John 6:51), and “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him†(John 6:56).
So we see that those who hear and learn the words of Jesus (who speaks for the Father – John 12:50) comes to Jesus (John 6:45), and all those who come to Jesus were drawn by the Father and believe. And those who drink his blood and eat his flesh (which is to say receive His message of who He is) are the same who believe and have eternal life, and Jesus will by no means cast them out because they abide in Him. We see this also again in summary in the next chapter in John 7:37-39, “If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.†Those who drink of his blood believe in Him, and will receive the Spirit a a promise. Here “belief†is a definite sense of that which belongs to a person genuinely called by God the Father and whom Jesus will accept and abide in.

 

[cyberjosh]

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However we also see John’s use of “belief†in a more questionable sense. While Jesus was at the Passover, John tells us, many people saw his signs and “believed in his name,†but Jesus, for his part, refused to entrust himself to these “believers†because “he knew all people†(2:23-24) . John seems to mean by this that Jesus knew their faith to be inauthentic. This does not describe the promised abiding in Him, and He in them. Jesus said, “ If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.†Jesus seems here to want to distinguish between his true disciples who follow him and those who believe shallowly, and follow after him yet do not abide in him. Could that be the dead faith which James mentions? In addition Jesus made the condition for eternal life not only those who hear him, come to him, and eat and drink his blood but also to obey (keep) his word (commandments). Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death†(John 8:51) and “Blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it! †(Luke 11:28). John later says, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments†(1 John 2:3). So when Jesus spoke of men hearing and coming to him in his discourse on the bread of life, and believing in him, must of necessity also meant obedience in keeping his word, because all of those things, he says, result in eternal life. This test of true discipleship and belief culminates when Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven†(Matthew 7:21). Jesus says that not all those who regard him as Lord and do all those things which follow that sentence (prophesied, cast out demons, performed miracles) will be saved (enter the kingdom), yet Judas most certainly did all those things and did not enter the kingdom, and he even stayed when others left yet he was a false disciple. Jesus surely didnâ¬â„¢t include such a person in his list of those who “believe†in his sermon on the “bread of life†did he?

 

[cyberjosh]

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After Jesus finished his discourse on the bread of life many of his disciples grumbled and said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?†(John 6:60). Jesus then asked them, “Does this cause you to stumble†(John 6:61)? Because of this hard teaching, which caused them to stumble, many left him (John 6:66). Jesus attributes this to their unbelief saying, “There are some of you who do not believe†because “Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray him†(John 6:64). This sounds an awful lot like the description of those in the Parable of the Seed and the Sower who heard the calling to follow Jesus, “believed†like those at Pentecost, and even received the word with joy (because they understood it – unlike the seed that fell by the wayside – that is the news of the kingdom coming), but then during difficult times stumbled as did the disciples in this incident (which doesn’t picture perseverance in keeping his commandments), whom Jesus then says were unbelieving from the very beginning, and thus not true disciples who abide.
And as for what Jesus said of salvation, in the context of enduring trials, he said, “And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved†(Matthew 10:22). The terminology parallels that of the seed that fell on stony ground in that they received the word, yet when persecution arises (being hated by all) because of the word (on account of His Name) they stumble. Yet it is those that do not stumble and endure to the end which will be saved. As for the joy that the person felt, it can be superficial and non-dedicatory, as Jesus spoke of someone else who sowed the Word of God: John the Baptist. Jesus said about him, “He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light†(John 5:35). Notice that their rejoicing didn’t last, but only for a little while. Jesus though, soon thereafter, said about the people accepting his own message, “And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent†(John 5:38). They may rejoice at the word but did they repent and believe (willing to make sacrifice)? I am inclined to say no.
So what then is the proper interpretation? Is there an exception to what Jesus said about those who come to Him are called by the Father, and that those who come drink and have eternal life, and those are the same that keep his commandments and abide in Him? Or do we have an exception with the use of “believe(s)†in which there can be a shallow, non-genuine belief (like the Jews at Pentecost) and the other the genuine one spoken of by Jesus in John 6:35-56?
Later as Jesus was speaking with the people again, “many believed on him†(John 8:30). “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, ‘If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed’†(John 8:31). So after they “believed†on him then Jesus tells them that they must then abide in him to be true disciples. Is he testing their belief to see if it is genuine (to see if they will stumble at a “hard teaching†and prove themselves “unbelieversâ€Â)? This seems to be different from what Jesus said earlier that those who come to him and believe are those who eat of the bread which gives eternal life, which then results in abiding. Is there an exception here in what Jesus was saying earlier? Is there a different way to understand what he was trying to say earlier? Perhaps, but I am not sure. But let us also consider the fact that these same Jews who “believedâ€Â, whom Jesus spoke to, immediately thereafter degenerated in their mood to unhapiness with Jesus’ words (8:33), then resorted to name-calling (claiming that he had a demon – 8:48), and then subsequently attempted to stone him (8:59). This type of “belief†looks a lot like unbelief.

 

[cyberjosh]

It seems then that either this faith/belief was non-genuine (yet for lack of a better word John calls it “beliefâ€Â), and is the only type of faith/belief that falls away (perhaps the case with the seed sown on stony ground) while the other type of belief is genuine and never falls away - or – it really was genuine faith/belief, but is merely the first step of which the subsequent step is to abide in Him, but is the type of faith/belief which you could fall from, though genuine. But if the latter possibility is true then why does Jesus speak so certainly in John 6:35-56 that those who come to him are called and believe, having eternal life, and abide in him? Where is the exception clause if this is so?
And if genuine belief is only the first step toward abiding in him then how can that parallel us saints today who when we first believed immediately received the Holy Spirit and began abiding in Him, and He in us?

So of even more concern is the serious question of, “Does the discipleship and belief held by Jesus’ followers before his sacrificial atonement on the cross parallel us, the saints, on the other side of the cross?†This is necessary to ask because the promise of the Spirit had not yet come upon those who followed Jesus at that time. And if the second of the two possibilities given the last paragraph is correct (of genuine faith being the first step, but that you could fall from it) then we see that the disciples would have had to endure in belief without falling away first to receive the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said “concerning the Holy Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given†(John 7:39). This would mean that even if they had genuine belief in Jesus (which Jesus said will bring about eternal life) that if they didn’t persevere (keep his commandments?) with it that they could fall from it, and fail to receive the Holy Spirit.
When Jesus gave a later promise of the Holy Spirit to his 12 disciples he promised to send “The Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father†which he said “would testify of Meâ€Â, and also told them, “and you also will bear witness†on the basis that “you have been with Me from the beginning†(John 15:26-27). He gave a similar explanation of his basis for promising something to them at the Last Supper when he promised that they would be with him in his kingdom and judge the 12 tribes of Israel saying “you are those who have stood by Me in My trials†(Luke 22:28). But if the disciples had to first endure trials of their faith and belief before they received the Holy Spirit and the promise of the kingdom how could we possibly parallel that to our situation post-Calvary, who seemingly receive the Holy Spirit immediately upon confession of Jesus as Lord and confession of sins unto repentance? Why did Jesus wait to see their perseverance before committing the promises to them while those who are born again immediately receive the Holy Spirit as a seal and promise of the future kingdom?
The disciples had a “buffer zone†before they could receive the Spirit, but only because Jesus was with them, though it was to their advantage that he go away so that the Spirit would come and guide them into all truth (John 16:13) and because the Spirit could convict the world of sin and righteousness where Jesus presently was not successful (John 16:8-10) because Jesus was judged and rejected (vs. 11). But we have no such buffer zone post-Calvary. And we have the Holy Spirit in us who convicts more effectively, so can we really say that we are in as delicate a position as some of the disciples who “believedâ€Â, either with a non-genuine belief – or – a genuine belief which can be thrown away? Do we too have to persevere first before we receive the promises of Jesus by the Spirit on the basis of our perseverance, as a “buffer zoneâ€Â, or are we assured that we have been given eternal life and salvation through the Spirit now (who is given to us as a seal) which could be thrown away afterwards? Or can it even be thrown away at all with the Holy Spirit, the promise of the disciples, in us? Or if we are parallel to the disciples’ situation then would we not also upon genuine belief not receive the Holy Spirit until some yet future event just like our yet future salvation (which is shown nowhere else in Scripture) to test our perseverance? But if it can be thrown away then why do we not see an exception clause in John 6:35-56 where those who are called also believe, and are given eternal life and abide in Him? And if there is no exception clause then those who had the seed fall on stony ground had only a non-genuine belief, and such belief would also apply to what John calls “belief†twice (John 2:23-24, 8:31) but which is non-commital. And those incidents seem to parallel the event of when the disciples forsook Jesus and Jesus said they never had belief in the first place.

So what is the final analysis here?

 

[TanNinety]

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

I am assuming this is the exact part where you are trying to find the exception clause. Correct me if I am wrong and I will broaden the scripture that I am looking at.

Let’s consider these statements:
A:
“Every one who will come to the party will have a great time. You will personally be fitted with the party costumes at your arrival. Make sure you don’t drink too muchâ€Â


B:
“Everyone is invited to the party. It’ll be great, costumes and music and all. Those who drink moderately and remain sober will remain and unruly drunks will be kicked outâ€Â.

Based on the above statements, you are saying that statement B has an exception clause which is missing from A. I say there is an exception clause in A. Subtle but there still is one. “Make sure you don’t drink too muchâ€Â.

Now coming back the scripture you provided and searching through it there is a subtle exception clause that I can see. Let me run a parallel.

A1: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
A2: Every one who will come to the party will have a great time.

B1: They will all be taught by God.
B2: You will personally be fitted with the party costumes at your arrival.

C1: Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
C2: Make sure you don’t drink too much

Now, my conclusion is that, the consequence of “not making sure that you don’t drink too much has been specified as ‘you will be kicked out of the party’â€Â. Similarly, the subtle exceptional clause says that you have to listen and learn to what the Father teaches. And those who listen and learn from Him are the ones that “come to meâ€Â. The consequence of this exceptional clause is if you hear the call of the Father drawing you and come yet fail to listen and learn then you will eventually fail to come to me.

Does that make sense? Or do I need to refine anything?

 

[cyberjosh]

Now, my conclusion is that, the consequence of “not making sure that you don’t drink too much has been specified as ‘you will be kicked out of the party’â€Â. Similarly, the subtle exceptional clause says that you have to listen and learn to what the Father teaches. And those who listen and learn from Him are the ones that “come to meâ€Â. The consequence of this exceptional clause is if you hear the call of the Father drawing you and come yet fail to listen and learn then you will eventually fail to come to me.

Does that make sense? Or do I need to refine anything?

Your analogy made sense (even if not perfectly equivalent), I get what you were saying. And quite frankly I'm relieved that someone actually read that huge chunk of reasoning. Thanks.

Now, the point of "coming to Jesus" speaks to me of first coming to Jesus for salvation. In a supplemental paper which I haven't posted here I explored just the elements of that long string of teachings which Jesus gave in John 6 and I noted that out of all the commands there is a present, active, continuing element (believes, drinks, etc.) which could imply a condition all exept for one element which is used as a one time past event and that is "come" which Jesus uses in a past tense once in his teaching. Thus coming is a one time thing, which signifies to me the initial salvation/regeneration experience. I only see the others in the active sense. But then I see that all those elements (eating, believing, and obeying) all have the same result and are equivalent, thus the condition shows a definate sense of "belief" not that of a false belief. Jesus doesn't once speak of or even imply a false belief in the entire "bread of life" discourse. I went on to show (above) 3 examples in which John in the same Gospel shows a different sense of "belief" which is incompatible via "plug & play" interpretations back into the "bread of life" discourse which describes a completely different reaction (a different sense of "belief"), and definately no "coming, obeying, & abiding" in Jesus. That is what I want to evaluate.

I will stop here until you get a chance to reply so that we can work through the length of the arguement above. Once again thanks for replying, I enjoy feedback.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[TanNinety]

Ah cybershark, I had to skim over your initial posts again and your last post put everything else in perspective for me. I think I understand what you are saying, quite clever I must say or discerning is the word I am looking for.

Tell me if I have wrapped my thoughts right, around what you have presented.
There is an initial group of people who “comeâ€Â. There is no “calling†involved here. This group comprises of John’s authentic and unauthentic believers. They are all believers nevertheless. Now, God who can search the hearts of men draws the authentic believers. This is the special “calling†that Yeshua talks about that the Father will do. Now these who are called “come†and there is no more an exceptional clause of conditions because they will listen and learn of the Father and abide in Christ. Thus their initial call for salvation is secure and there is no falling away seen in John 6:35-56

Do I have it right, so for?

 

[JM]

John 6:44 [This is a classic passage demonstrating importance of God the Father drawing the saints to Christ.] NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6: 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [Notice, ‘except.’ One cannot even see the Kingdom without the new birth.]

They believed because God granted them belief.

Acts 16: 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, [God did it, not Lydia.] that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Acts 18: 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The Greek doesn't allow for any other understanding of this passage, grace AND faith are gifts of God.

Ephesians 2: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Philippians 1: 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, [It was given to them to believe.] but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Timothy 2: 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

John 8: 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD.

And why can’t they hear Christ’s word?

John 8: 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rom. 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

“The Greek word at the base of the major word group meaning, “redeem,†“redeemer†and “redemption†is lou, which means “to loose†or “loosen.†It was used of loosening clothes or unbinding armor. When applied to human beings, it signified the loosing of bonds so that, for example a prisoner by means of a ransom in those casesit meant “to release by payment of a ranson price.†James M. Boice


~JM~

 

[cyberjosh]

Ah cybershark, I had to skim over your initial posts again and your last post put everything else in perspective for me.

I'm glad the last post put it in perspective.

I think I understand what you are saying, quite clever I must say or discerning is the word I am looking for.

Thank you. I really did put alot of effort and thought into this.

Tell me if I have wrapped my thoughts right, around what you have presented.
There is an initial group of people who “comeâ€Â. There is no “calling†involved here. This group comprises of John’s authentic and unauthentic believers. They are all believers nevertheless. Now, God who can search the hearts of men draws the authentic believers. This is the special “calling†that Yeshua talks about that the Father will do. Now these who are called “come†and there is no more an exceptional clause of conditions because they will listen and learn of the Father and abide in Christ. Thus their initial call for salvation is secure and there is no falling away seen in John 6:35-56

Yes, you are catching one of the strong implications of what I suggested. I tried to absolve myself from an absolute statement in the paper as to make the reader evaluate for themselves, but yes. Unless there is an exception to Jesus' bread of life sermon then that is a very strong implication of what the situation was. And to be perfectly honest I lean in that direction.

 

[francisdesales]

This is just a ping to myself to come here later when I have time.