Bible Study what does it mean to be born again?

[leroy]

As for the made up answer it was the use of heritage and lineage. this has no substance and was a distinction without a difference.

I would ask how did the different biblical translations using 'children' or 'descendants' support the idea that Jesus had any different kind of flesh than Mary? How did Mary come to be a child or descendant of Abraham? The Greek word "spermah" refers to blood line or genetics.
My son married a lady that already had a little boy. My son is the only father Dillan has ever known and is treated no differently than his own children but he is not a son according to his 'spermah'. Matthew and Cassy are of his'sperma' they are his according to the flesh. Dillan is his son or 'child' but not according to the flesh for he is not of his 'spermah'.
You are your parents child as a result of 'spermah' you have their genetics, and that goes all the way back to Adam.
So also is Mary's son.
Trying to make a distinction between children and seed is a futile argument. You seem to be an educated person so it seems only through abstinence that you pursue this.
The fact that Jesus had the same flesh that you and I have, which was corrupted or made weak by Adam's disobedience, does not make him any less of a Savior but actually more of a Savior because he is one with us. And God did it work in him through His own divine Son that he is willing to do in the same way within you and I

Was Jesus the product of long-dead David's semen introduced into Mary?

This is facetious and not productive. It is only pu forth to prop up a distinction that has no difference.

Christ, however, did not occupy an already-existing human body with a consciousness,

Yes he did otherwise he was just a skin suit without any genetically inherited traits which would contribute to his wholeness as a human.

as the Holy Spirit does each born-again person today. No, Jesus "took on flesh" after the manner of every human soul, his body growing in the womb of Mary until birth after which he endured the normal process to physical maturation. It is quite inaccurate - or, perhaps, misleading is a better word - to say, then, that as "temples" of the Holy Spirit, we are "God in human flesh" in the sense in which Jesus was.



This is very much the sort of thing I encountered often with my High School English students who would try to bluff their way through an essay assignment for which they had not done appropriate reading and study. See above.

Which is exactly what you have done. That is why I described it as made up. Do you think your english teacher would have accepted your essay in the light of what the Greek lexicon and Websters dictionary presents?

This is not by any means evident in your exchange with me so far. Quite the opposite, it seems to me.

Jesus was pretty direct with people at times and yet he desired for them to be converted and become his followers. If you think I want to alienate you, you are mistaken.

No, your "skin suit" description does not fit with what I've pointed out from God's word. Christ was not God merely "wearing flesh" as a kind of costume.

If Mary's son was not sentient and a child of David then he was no more than a skin suit which I reject completely.

I agree that He intimately sees and feels every thing we do. That is how He bears the sin of the world every day in every unregenerate soul. And how He is crucified afresh daily in billions of soul temples. Humanity abuses Him daily and He bears it all out of love.

In the same way, there is no equality between we born-again people and the Holy Spirit who has made of us his "temples." We are indescribably inferior to the Spirit and must always be "walking in step" with him accordingly (Galatians 5:16, 25). He leads, we follow (Romans 8:14; Galatian 5:18). He controls, we yield to His control (Romans 6:13-18). He transforms, we submit to his changes (2 Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 5:22-23). Only when we are "living sacrifices" to the Spirit's - to God's - will and way do we discover the abundant life offered to us in Jesus Christ (Romans 12:1; Ephesians 3:14-21).

God dwelling in you does not make you God. His indwelling is ever leading you to your cross. You must decrease as He increases. This is how Christ is glorified in His saints. Scripture refers to God is invisible and when you become invisible to yourself then God is all that is seen. He will live and move and find His being in you. Willing and doing according to His good pleasure. Just as He did in Jesus.

But, again, as born-again people, we share our body with the Holy Spirit; we are two distinct beings within the same human form. Jesus, in contrast, was a single being - God - possessing two distinct natures.

Yes two distinct beings but married into one John 17

It is clear that we have no agreement in almost everything and it is unnecessary to carry on like this. I believe that you have been intellectually dishonest in regard to some difficult concepts that I have presented which might bring light to you and I suppose you feel the same about me. You have what you want and I am content with that.

 

[leroy]

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

• While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

To anyone who can answer this question:


Was Cornelius and those who were present, born again before they were baptized in water?

I would say converted from pagan influence.

JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Really just because I would not use the easily misunderstood words, "I don't sin any more"?

What's to misunderstand ?
Either you do or you don't commit sin...seems like a pretty easy quetion to answer.

If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
There is none good but God.

How on earth is "I obey God" self-justifying ?
Was Jesus in fact 'good' ?

I too hade a glimmer of hope that you might have eyes to see something new and wonderful. Everything I have discovered and shared has magnified the Gift of God's sacrifice and shines a light on the pathway back to Him. The fact that you digressed to labeling what I shared with numerous ...isims rather than considering that what I shared just might shatter the tiny box God is confined to by religion and so called higher learning.

I see that you want to hide what God could have done for you.

I would love to see you made free

And I you.
But I have been free for many years, and am not ashamed to admit it..

 

[Tenchi]

I would ask how did the different biblical translations using 'children' or 'descendants' support the idea that Jesus had any different kind of flesh than Mary?

??? I never said Jesus had "different flesh than Mary." He was not conceived of the seed of Joseph, but Jesus was still just as biologically human as his mother or Joseph.

How did Mary come to be a child or descendant of Abraham? The Greek word "spermah" refers to blood line or genetics.

I've already explained to you from Scripture that "seed" is used by the apostle Paul as a synonym for "children" or "descendants." It sounds here like you're acknowledging this.

My son married a lady that already had a little boy. My son is the only father Dillan has ever known and is treated no differently than his own children but he is not a son according to his 'spermah'. Matthew and Cassy are of his'sperma' they are his according to the flesh. Dillan is his son or 'child' but not according to the flesh for he is not of his 'spermah'.

Uh huh. Glad you understand all this.

You are your parents child as a result of 'spermah' you have their genetics, and that goes all the way back to Adam.
So also is Mary's son.

Who has said otherwise? I haven't.

Trying to make a distinction between children and seed is a futile argument.

??? This is a very strange and very obvious Strawman. I've never tried to make a distinction between these two terms, but the very opposite. Are you actually reading and understanding what I'm writing?

The fact that Jesus had the same flesh that you and I have, which was corrupted or made weak by Adam's disobedience, does not make him any less of a Savior but actually more of a Savior because he is one with us. And God did it work in him through His own divine Son that he is willing to do in the same way within you and I

Jesus had a human nature, yes. Just like you and I. But he had a second, divine nature, too. And that higher, greater nature ordered his lesser human nature such that it was impossible for Christ's humanness to cause him to sin. This is, as I've said, quite obvious. It is a denial of the plain declaration of God's word to think that Jesus did not have the supreme advantage of a divine nature that we don't have.

This is facetious and not productive. It is only pu forth to prop up a distinction that has no difference.

See my last post to you.

Yes he did otherwise he was just a skin suit without any genetically inherited traits which would contribute to his wholeness as a human.

This is both bizarre on its face and entirely scripturally unfounded. Jesus did not possess a human being, a human male, who had his own consciousness separate from Christ's. Jesus was impregnated into Mary, gestated to birth and then grew to adulthood solely as himself. He did not take over some other human person's body within Mary. Such a thing is not even hinted at in the Bible.

Which is exactly what you have done.

Saying so doesn't make it so. Show that this is "exactly what I've done." You haven't even come close to doing so yet. Instead, you seem to think merely asserting that it is so somehow makes it so. It doesn't.

Do you think your english teacher would have accepted your essay in the light of what the Greek lexicon and Websters dictionary presents?

Of course. Because, unlike you, my English teachers could properly comprehend what they were reading. Unfortunately, you seem to be having serious trouble doing this.

Jesus was pretty direct with people at times and yet he desired for them to be converted and become his followers. If you think I want to alienate you, you are mistaken.

Well, you're doing a very poor job of carrying on as someone who is not wanting to alienate others. A suggestion: Actually try to understand what I've been putting forward.

If Mary's son was not sentient and a child of David then he was no more than a skin suit which I reject completely.

What you do or don't reject concerns me not at all. I care only about what God's word actually says. And it says, as I've demonstrated from it, that Jesus was the God-Man, possessed of two natures, not two consciousnesses, his God-nature totally subduing and directing his Man-nature.

I agree that He intimately sees and feels every thing we do. That is how He bears the sin of the world every day in every unregenerate soul.

??? This is nowhere stated in God's word. He bears the sin of the world because, as I've already explained from Scripture, he was infinite and perfect, not because he understands what is to be tempted as we are. From this understanding he can sympathize with us, but it doesn't do anything to enable him to atone for the sin of the world.

Humanity abuses Him daily and He bears it all out of love.

??? No he doesn't. His face is against any and all who do evil. Read 1 Peter 3:12, or Psalm 66:18, or Isaiah 59:2. Read Revelation 2-3. Read Hebrews 10:28-31. Goodness! God does not tolerate sin in anyone, including and especially in His own children. And those who sin and are not His children will suffer eternal separation from their holy Maker should they die unrepentant in their sin.

God dwelling in you does not make you God. His indwelling is ever leading you to your cross.

Of course the Spirit within doesn't make you God. I've never said otherwise. Just the opposite, in fact.

God is not leading me to my cross, but to the cross - the cross of Christ upon which I was spiritually co-crucified with him, as Paul explained in several places in his various letters (Romans 6; Colossians 2:10-12; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Galatians 6:14, etc.) The one who picks up his cross daily is the one who lives, by faith, in the truth of his already being crucified with Christ, dying to the old Self and living in new life in the Savior (2 Corinthians 5:17; Colossians 3:3).

You must decrease as He increases.

I must do more: I must die. See above. Read John 12:24-25. Because I am, in Christ, already dead. See above.

Scripture refers to God is invisible and when you become invisible to yourself then God is all that is seen

What Romans 8:29 tells me is that God's goal for me is that I am changed such that Christ is seen in me more and more. See 2 Corinthians 4:7-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18. I am to be a vessel in, and through, whom Jesus is communicated.

Yes two distinct beings but married into one John 17

No. False. See what I've already shown you from God's word.

It is clear that we have no agreement in almost everything and it is unnecessary to carry on like this.

Unfortunately, it is necessary when you publicly propose things about God and His Truth that are in error.

I believe that you have been intellectually dishonest in regard to some difficult concepts that I have presented which might bring light to you and I suppose you feel the same about me.

It is not what I feel about you; it is what you are shown to be in the light of God's word and of our discussion of it.

You have what you want and I am content with that.

Uh huh.

 

[leroy]

??? I never said Jesus had "different flesh than Mary." He was not conceived of the seed of Joseph, but Jesus was still just as biologically human as his mother or Joseph.

Then you do agree that his flesh was no different than Mary, and that he had a human nature just like you and I.
You and I and Mary were born with a fallen nature. Do you believe that Jesus had the same nature? As the scripture states he took part of the same?

Jesus had a human nature, yes. Just like you and I. But he had a second, divine nature, too. And that higher, greater nature ordered his lesser human nature such that it was impossible for Christ's humanness to cause him to sin. This is, as I've said, quite obvious. It is a denial of the plain declaration of God's word to think that Jesus did not have the supreme advantage of a divine nature that we don't have.

2 Peter 1:4 States that we will become partakers of the divine nature does that give us the same advantage?

This is both bizarre on its face and entirely scripturally unfounded. Jesus did not possess a human being, a human male, who had his own consciousness separate from Christ's. Jesus was impregnated into Mary, gestated to birth and then grew to adulthood solely as himself. He did not take over some other human person's body within Mary. Such a thing is not even hinted at in the Bible.

As I've read the Bible it seems very clear to me that since we are created to be temples for God's habitation and the plan of redemption has offered us the Son to live in us and be our life, our eternal life. Do you believe this?

What you do or don't reject concerns me not at all. I care only about what God's word actually says. And it says, as I've demonstrated from it, that Jesus was the God-Man, possessed of two natures, not two consciousnesses, his God-nature totally subduing and directing his Man-nature.

According to scripture are we not also possessed of two natures?

??? This is nowhere stated in God's word. He bears the sin of the world because, as I've already explained from Scripture, he was infinite and perfect, not because he understands what is to be tempted as we are. From this understanding he can sympathize with us, but it doesn't do anything to enable him to atone for the sin of the world.

Part of my understanding was formed by this text, "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt 8
When you consider the enormous amount of diseases that can infect the human body I don't think Jesus displayed any them.
But if the Son dwells within humanity he certainly could 'bare our sicknesses'. It makes our Creator far more intimately connected to us personally and it expresses such a tender caring love that He would bare it right along with us. In our misery we could take comfort that we are not alone for He truly bares it with us.

What Romans 8:29 tells me is that God's goal for me is that I am changed such that Christ is seen in me more and more. See 2 Corinthians 4:7-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18. I am to be a vessel in, and through, whom Jesus is communicated.

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
In my understanding of the Bible, the Son can possess or live in us because He is a spirit Being and we are a vessel made for His abiding.
The question is how can Jesus a God-man live in you?

 

[leroy]

What's to misunderstand ?
Either you do or you don't commit sin...seems like a pretty easy quetion to answer.

I knew a man you had found the gift of deliverance and one night during prayer meeting he gave the testimony, "I don't sin anymore". I suggested at the time testimony should not be about what "I" do or don't do, but about what God is doing in me. The following week after church he 'cornered me'. He was a large man with a commanding presence with a deep voice. As he spoke to me in his usual commanding way, I responded by saying. "I feel like I'm in trouble with the school principal and if you are going to talk to me I think you need to blink once in a while. I kind of doubt that anyone had ever reject his "authority" before, as he seemed shocked that I was not under his control. It kind of knocked him off his horse and he began talking like a normal person. Although he was revered by many people I was not impressed. He had an arrogance or pride about him. It was not long before he fell very hard and left the church.
I will say my Father keeps me.

How on earth is "I obey God" self-justifying ?

Sounds like "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I knew a man you had found the gift of deliverance and one night during prayer meeting he gave the testimony, "I don't sin anymore". I suggested at the time testimony should not be about what "I" do or don't do, but about what God is doing in me. The following week after church he 'cornered me'. He was a large man with a commanding presence with a deep voice. As he spoke to me in his usual commanding way, I responded by saying. "I feel like I'm in trouble with the school principal and if you are going to talk to me I think you need to blink once in a while. I kind of doubt that anyone had ever reject his "authority" before, as he seemed shocked that I was not under his control. It kind of knocked him off his horse and he began talking like a normal person. Although he was revered by many people I was not impressed. He had an arrogance or pride about him. It was not long before he fell very hard and left the church.
I will say my Father keeps me.

Keeps you sinless ?

Sounds like "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

Your definition of justify needs work.
Glorifying God by stating what He accomplished in you does not justify anyone but Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
Without the manifestation of what His life, death, and resurrection accomplished, His death, etc., is void of fruit.

 

[Tenchi]

Then you do agree that his flesh was no different than Mary, and that he had a human nature just like you and I.

This is an...odd thing to ask me in light of what I've already written in this thread on this particular point. In answer to your question, I refer you to my past answers to it.

You and I and Mary were born with a fallen nature. Do you believe that Jesus had the same nature?

No, as I've already plainly stated in past posts. Jesus was human but, because he was not conceived by a fallen man but by the miraculous act of the Holy Spirit, he was not afflicted with the spiritual separation from God that is the essence of the "fallen nature."

2 Peter 1:4 States that we will become partakers of the divine nature does that give us the same advantage?

No. We born-again people are, as I already explained, the temple of the Holy Spirit. We are beings in whom resides another discrete being of an enormously different, superior nature, not a single being possessed of two natures, as in Christ's case. Christians are vessels, containers and conduits, inhabited, directed and transformed by God, the Holy Spirit who communicates himself in and through them. In contrast, Jesus is God in his very nature, not a mere vessel containing God. He communicates only himself, needing no transformation of character, desires, thinking or conduct by an external, divine agent.

When we "partake of the divine nature" it is obvious that this partaking can only be very limited since we are not capable of omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence and are created beings, unlike God who exists (and has always existed) as a necessity of His own being. Partakers though we may be, we remain children to heavenly Father, creatures to Creator, servants to Master, sheep to Shepherd, etc. We don't, then, ever have the same advantage of deity that Christ enjoyed, his very nature that of God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.

As I've read the Bible it seems very clear to me that since we are created to be temples for God's habitation and the plan of redemption has offered us the Son to live in us and be our life, our eternal life. Do you believe this?

Yes, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Philippians 1:19), lives in those who trust in Christ as Saviour and yield to him as Lord (Romans 10:9-10; Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5-7) imparting to them his life and work as they remain submitted to his will and way.

According to scripture are we not also possessed of two natures?

Not in the way that Christ is. We possess an old, fallen, self-centered, fleshly nature held impotent on the cross of Christ and a new, Christ-centered, spiritual nature imparted to us and regulated by the Holy Spirit. In contrast, Christ has a human nature, untainted by the Fall, as Adam's was before he sinned, and a self-derived divine nature, not imparted to him and regulated by a superior divine agent (i.e. the Holy Spirit).

Part of my understanding was formed by this text, "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt 8
When you consider the enormous amount of diseases that can infect the human body I don't think Jesus displayed any them.
But if the Son dwells within humanity he certainly could 'bare our sicknesses'.

Matthew 8:17
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.

From what does all our physical sickness (and death) ultimately arise? Sin. Did Jesus bear our sin, the source of all of our diseases, on the cross? Yes, he did. For a brief time prior to the cross, he did more than this, miraculously healing many - but not all (see the pool of Bethesda - John 5) - sick folk. Nonethless, Jesus's healing was spiritual, before and above all else, as Isaiah 53 explains, mending the rift between God and Man caused by their sin. I don't, therefore, subscribe to the idea of physical healing in the Atonement, nor do I see this clearly taught in Scripture. Consider Timothy, Trophimus, Dorcas and Epaphroditus, all of whom suffered illness without miraculous healing.

In our misery we could take comfort that we are not alone for He truly bares it with us.

Well, he certainly understands what it is for us to be physically sick. But I don't see any reason in Scripture to think he endures our illnesses along with us. As an immaterial being, how would the Holy Spirit do this, exactly? He is, by his very nature, immune to physical disease or suffering.

The question is how can Jesus a God-man live in you?

He doesn't. The Holy Spirit does. Jesus, the Son of God, is seated at God's right hand in heaven as our Advocate, always making intercession for us before God (1 John 2:1; Romans 8:34). It is the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, imparting to us strength, conviction, illumination, comfort and transformation (John 16:8; Ephesians 3:16; John 14:26; 2 Corinthians 3:18).

 

[leroy]

This is an...odd thing to ask me in light of what I've already written in this thread on this particular point. In answer to your question, I refer you to my past answers to it.



No, as I've already plainly stated in past posts. Jesus was human but, because he was not conceived by a fallen man but by the miraculous act of the Holy Spirit, he was not afflicted with the spiritual separation from God that is the essence of the "fallen nature."

"Jesus was human but, because he was not conceived by a fallen man". His human genetics were that of Mary, who had a fallen nature. that nature came from her, correct?
And you stated "Jesus had a human nature, yes. Just like you and I. But he had a second, divine nature, too." we have a fallen nature so did he. Having a fallen nature and remaining obedient by the power of God is our assurance of a life of continual obedience.

No. We born-again people are, as I already explained, the temple of the Holy Spirit. We are beings in whom resides another discrete being of an enormously different, superior nature, not a single being possessed of two natures, as in Christ's case. Christians are vessels, containers and conduits, inhabited, directed and transformed by God, the Holy Spirit who communicates himself in and through them. In contrast, Jesus is God in his very nature, not a mere vessel containing God. He communicates only himself, needing no transformation of character, desires, thinking or conduct by an external, divine agent.

So you do not believe the Son lives in us?

When we "partake of the divine nature" it is obvious that this partaking can only be very limited since we are not capable of omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence and are created beings, unlike God who exists (and has always existed) as a necessity of His own being. Partakers though we may be, we remain children to heavenly Father, creatures to Creator, servants to Master, sheep to Shepherd, etc. We don't, then, ever have the same advantage of deity that Christ enjoyed, his very nature that of God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.

The presence of God in us does not make us omnipresent etc it provides us with eternal life and the power to live as Jesus did. The divine nature and eternal life are not things but they come in the person of His Son.

Yes, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Philippians 1:19), lives in those who trust in Christ as Saviour and yield to him as Lord (Romans 10:9-10; Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5-7) imparting to them his life and work as they remain submitted to his will and way.



Not in the way that Christ is. We possess an old, fallen, self-centered, fleshly nature held impotent on the cross of Christ and a new, Christ-centered, spiritual nature imparted to us and regulated by the Holy Spirit. In contrast, Christ has a human nature, untainted by the Fall, as Adam's was before he sinned, and a self-derived divine nature, not imparted to him and regulated by a superior divine agent (i.e. the Holy Spirit).

And yet it was destroyed on the cross according to God Romans 6:6

Well, he certainly understands what it is for us to be physically sick. But I don't see any reason in Scripture to think he endures our illnesses along with us. As an immaterial being, how would the Holy Spirit do this, exactly? He is, by his very nature, immune to physical disease or suffering.

We were created for habitation. Satan has hijacked that quality. In Luke 8 the demoniac had full control and used the mans muscles of speech. The demon controlled his physical body and as such was intimately involved with his nervous system that controlled his muscles.
I suspect that demon had an experience in a full body infestation. If God created the human temple to be so available for such an intimate union for His own purposes and a an evil spirit could take advantage of this equipment, Then surely The the Son "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17

He doesn't. The Holy Spirit does. Jesus, the Son of God, is seated at God's right hand in heaven as our Advocate, always making intercession for us before God (1 John 2:1; Romans 8:34). It is the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, imparting to us strength, conviction, illumination, comfort and transformation (John 16:8; Ephesians 3:16; John 14:26; 2 Corinthians 3:18).

God promised His Son to the world to save us, not the Holy Spirit. "This is the record that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He that has the Son has life.
In John 14 the Spirit was promised a few verses later it says, "... my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

 

[leroy]

Keeps you sinless ?

Jude 24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
So do you also claim to be faultless as well as sinless?

Your definition of justify needs work.
Glorifying God by stating what He accomplished in you does not justify anyone but Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
Without the manifestation of what His life, death, and resurrection accomplished, His death, etc., is void of fruit.

I cannot define it any better than this, "If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse."

 

[Tenchi]

"Jesus was human but, because he was not conceived by a fallen man". His human genetics were that of Mary, who had a fallen nature. that nature came from her, correct?

The fallenness of humanity is passed along from Adam through the male side of humanity, not from Eve. Eve was deceived and sinned, as Paul wrote, but Adam took willfully and wittingly of the Forbidden Fruit and sinned, only persuaded to do so because of the entreaty of his wife. (1 Timothy 2:14; Genesis 3:6) And so, Scripture identifies Adam, not Eve, as the one through whom sin entered the world and by whom the separation between Man and God in Eden occurred.

Romans 5:12-14
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Thus it is that a man had nothing to do with Christ's conception, his lineage to David being through Mary's family line and his being conceived a miraculous act of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:20). It is vital that this be so since "the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) had to be perfect, utterly without spot or blemish, a flawless sacrifice, which could not have been the case were Christ tainted in any way by Adam's sin.

Leviticus 22:17-22
17 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
18 “Speak to Aaron and his sons and all the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of the house of Israel or of the sojourners in Israel presents a burnt offering as his offering, for any of their vows or freewill offerings that they offer to the LORD,
19 if it is to be accepted for you it shall be a male without blemish, of the bulls or the sheep or the goats.
20 You shall not offer anything that has a blemish, for it will not be acceptable for you.
21 And when anyone offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.
22 Animals blind or disabled or mutilated or having a discharge or an itch or scabs you shall not offer to the LORD or give them to the LORD as a food offering on the altar.

Hebrews 9:14
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And you stated "Jesus had a human nature, yes. Just like you and I. But he had a second, divine nature, too." we have a fallen nature so did he. Having a fallen nature and remaining obedient by the power of God is our assurance of a life of continual obedience.

No. See above. And my last post to you.

So you do not believe the Son lives in us?

??? This is an odd question in light of what I've written. I've already stated my view on this question very clearly. Please refer to those statements. You might also read Romans 8:9 and Philippians 1:19 as I already suggest that you do.

The presence of God in us does not make us omnipresent etc it provides us with eternal life and the power to live as Jesus did. The divine nature and eternal life are not things but they come in the person of His Son.

Right. The life and work of the Holy Spirit in us imparts to us the desire and ability to do God's will.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Ephesians 3:16
16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being,

2 Corinthians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

And so on. Unlike Jesus whose holy perfection was an intrinsic feature of his nature, you and I must consciously choose, by our submission to the Spirit's control (James 4:7; Romans 6:13-18; Romans 12:1; 1 Peter 5:6), to be transformed by him, progressively becoming more and more like Jesus as the Spirit works in us to make us so.

You're correct, too, that the Spirit does not dole out packets of power, or peace, or faith, or whatever. He is himself all that we need to be who God wants us to be. And as he is in control of us, he works to make us godly, being for us what we cannot ever be for ourselves.

And yet it was destroyed on the cross according to God Romans 6:6

"Destroyed" - the word used in the KJV version of Romans 6:6, but not in more accurate versions of the Bible - is, in the Greek, katargeo which means "made entirely idle" (argeo) (kata being merely a verb particle).

Romans 6:6 (ESV)
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 6:6 (NASB)
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Romans 6:6 (AMPC)
We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross with Him in order that [our] body [which is the instrument] of sin might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be the slaves of sin.

Romans 6:6 (YLT)
this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

We were created for habitation. Satan has hijacked that quality. In Luke 8 the demoniac had full control and used the mans muscles of speech. The demon controlled his physical body and as such was intimately involved with his nervous system that controlled his muscles.

This is destructive, coercive possession, not the habitation of the Holy Spirit in us described in the NT.

If God created the human temple to be so available for such an intimate union for His own purposes and a an evil spirit could take advantage of this equipment, Then surely The the Son "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17

We aren't "equipment" but living beings made in the imago dei which the demonic purposefully violates by wresting control of a person to their harm. Do we read in the NT that the demons that drove the demoniac of Gadara wild, cutting himself, crying aloud and roaming graveyards, suffered along with him? No, we don't. If the demons suffered in tandem with their host, why would they compel their host into near-constant pain and destruction? Well, being immaterial, these devilish spirit-beings were not susceptible to the physiological phenomena we call disease, injury and pain. And so, they could torment and injure their host with impunity, delighting in the physical harm and madness they caused, not suffering it also.

And so, again, how would the non-physical, spirit-being called the Holy Spirit be susceptible to our physical diseases and suffering? And do we see him taking away the suffering of Epaphroditus, or Timothy, or Dorcas, or Trophimus, all of whom suffered from various illnesses and were not miraculously healed (Dorcas died from her illness)? No, we don't.

God promised His Son to the world to save us, not the Holy Spirit. "This is the record that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He that has the Son has life.
In John 14 the Spirit was promised a few verses later it says, "... my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

I've already cited in this thread many verses that indicate very clearly to us that it is in the Person of the Holy Spirit that we interact with Jesus. Fellowship with God is fellowship with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of God. (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 3:17). We are given the Spirit of Christ in the third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. But these two Persons are not identical to one another, mere modes of a single Being. As the Bible says, Christ is in heaven at God's right hand making intercession for us as our Advocate. The Holy Spirit is on earth, within each of God's children, and by his presence in them making them "new creatures in Christ."

John 14:16-17
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 16:7
7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

 

[leroy]

The fallenness of humanity is passed along from Adam through the male side of humanity, not from Eve. Eve was deceived and sinned, as Paul wrote, but Adam took willfully and wittingly of the Forbidden Fruit and sinned, only persuaded to do so because of the entreaty of his wife. (1 Timothy 2:14; Genesis 3:6) And so, Scripture identifies Adam, not Eve, as the one through whom sin entered the world and by whom the separation between Man and God in Eden occurred.

So what you're saying is that no woman has a fallen nature!???

No. See above. And my last post to you.

I read this in your own words. "A human nature just like you and I"

??? This is an odd question in light of what I've written. I've already stated my view on this question very clearly. Please refer to those statements. You might also read Romans 8:9 and Philippians 1:19 as I already suggest that you do.

A simple yes or no will do.
In reading your posts you have used only "the Holy Spirit in you". Even with the scripture you have sited I am still not sure if you believe that the Son lives in your body.
Perhaps you can do me the kindness and answer.

And so on. Unlike Jesus whose holy perfection was an intrinsic feature of his nature, you and I must consciously choose, by our submission to the Spirit's control

In Gethsemane he prayed for the cup to be taken away. never the less not my will but yours. Sounds like he had to make a choice to be in submission.
What do you think?

You're correct, too, that the Spirit does not dole out packets of power, or peace, or faith, or whatever. He is himself all that we need to be who God wants us to be. And as he is in control of us, he works to make us godly, being for us what we cannot ever be for ourselves.

So it is only the Spirit that lives in you? The Son does not?

"Destroyed" - the word used in the KJV version of Romans 6:6, but not in more accurate versions of the Bible - is, in the Greek, katargeo which means "made entirely idle" (argeo) (kata being merely a verb particle).

On the cross death was the outcome. I have sat in a room with a dead lady, she was "entirely idle" because her fallen nature was destroyed she could never again disobey or obey. Another distinction without a difference.
Scriptures states, "... if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
It seems that the old man is passed away not made idle.
When you are crucified and buried the old man is destroyed, never to see the light of day. That is as far as God sees it, unless you make provision for the flesh.

We aren't "equipment" but living beings made in the imago dei which the demonic purposefully violates by wresting control of a person to their harm. Do we read in the NT that the demons that drove the demoniac of Gadara wild, cutting himself, crying aloud and roaming graveyards, suffered along with him? No, we don't. If the demons suffered in tandem with their host, why would they compel their host into near-constant pain and destruction? Well, being immaterial, these devilish spirit-beings were not susceptible to the physiological phenomena we call disease, injury and pain. And so, they could torment and injure their host with impunity, delighting in the physical harm and madness they caused, not suffering it also.

interesting point, I will ponder that. However the scripture clearly states The the Son "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17 As our Savior and Redeemer It make more clearly the love of God that He bear it with us. Also, if He was made sin who knew no sin it appears that he took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses. This is by His living in us from Eden onward. A far greater sacrifice than a day on the cross. Does this reach your heart?

And so, again, how would the non-physical, spirit-being called the Holy Spirit be susceptible to our physical diseases and suffering? And do we see him taking away the suffering of Epaphroditus, or Timothy, or Dorcas, or Trophimus, all of whom suffered from various illnesses and were not miraculously healed (Dorcas died from her illness)? No, we don't.

Have you not read, "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:"
There are those who will suffer much and curse God for it but God has His silent witnesses who will testify that they went through great suffering and still rested theeir case with the one who loves them.

I've already cited in this thread many verses that indicate very clearly to us that it is in the Person of the Holy Spirit that we interact with Jesus. Fellowship with God is fellowship with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of God. (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 3:17). We are given the Spirit of Christ in the third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. But these two Persons are not identical to one another, mere modes of a single Being. As the Bible says, Christ is in heaven at God's right hand making intercession for us as our Advocate. The Holy Spirit is on earth, within each of God's children, and by his presence in them making them "new creatures in Christ."

but you have not believed 1 John 5:11-12

John 14:16-17
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

You skipped over verse 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
This is the fulness of the God head bodily in the believer. All three of the representatives of heaven.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jude 24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
So do you also claim to be faultless as well as sinless?

My repentance from sin was real, so I am sinless.
Does my check book always agree with my bank statement ?
No.
But Jesus didn't suffer and die so I could do perfect math.

I cannot define it any better than this, "If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse."

If you can't glorify God with your submission to Him, there is a problem.
Using the words of an OT man, who had no choice but to walk in and after the "flesh", makes no sense now that we can destroy the "flesh" and be reborn of God's seed.

 

[Tenchi]

So what you're saying is that no woman has a fallen nature!???

Obviously not. Please read again what I wrote.

I read this in your own words. "A human nature just like you and I"

I've written a good deal more about Christ's nature than this one statement. Just as you ought to do with Scripture, take all of what I've written together, not in this piecemeal manner.

A simple yes or no will do.
In reading your posts you have used only "the Holy Spirit in you". Even with the scripture you have sited I am still not sure if you believe that the Son lives in your body.
Perhaps you can do me the kindness and answer.

What do the verses I suggested you read say?

In Gethsemane he prayed for the cup to be taken away. never the less not my will but yours. Sounds like he had to make a choice to be in submission.
What do you think?

Not really. Being God-in-the-flesh, Jesus was already fully yielded to God the Father's will. His submission was, I believe, mostly for our sake, showing us the Real Battle of Christian living -submission to God - and how to win it.

So it is only the Spirit that lives in you? The Son does not?

What does God's word say? Consult the verses I've already presented in response to this question.

On the cross death was the outcome. I have sat in a room with a dead lady, she was "entirely idle" because her fallen nature was destroyed she could never again disobey or obey. Another distinction without a difference.

But death isn't the only circumstance in which being made entirely idle is possible. You're assuming the "destroyed/dead" interpretation of katargeo and then arguing from it. But the term katargeo doesn't actually mean "dead." And both the general experience of Christians throughout the last 2000 years and the record of the NT bear out that the "old Self" isn't utterly eradicated.

Also, if He was made sin who knew no sin it appears that he took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses.

He bore our sicknesses by dealing with the ultimate source of our sickness: Sin. I don't think we can assert much beyond this in what we can claim about his atoning work on the cross.

but you have not believed 1 John 5:11-12

This is a non sequitur.

You skipped over verse 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
This is the fulness of the God head bodily in the believer. All three of the representatives of heaven.

They are present in us in a single member of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, who is called the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, and the Spirit of Christ in the verses I already cited to you. Sharing a single divine nature with the Holy Spirit, neither the Father nor the Son need to be actually physically present in us. If the Holy Spirit is within, in him we have, in essence, the Father and Son, too.

 

[leroy]

I've written a good deal more about Christ's nature than this one statement. Just as you ought to do with Scripture, take all of what I've written together, not in this piecemeal manner.

Thank you for your answer.

This is a non sequitur.

I think it is intellectual dishonesty

They are present in us in a single member of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, who is called the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, and the Spirit of Christ in the verses I already cited to you. Sharing a single divine nature with the Holy Spirit, neither the Father nor the Son need to be actually physically present in us. If the Holy Spirit is within, in him we have, in essence, the Father and Son, too.

Now I understand what you believe

 

[leroy]

My repentance from sin was real, so I am sinless.
Does my check book always agree with my bank statement ?
No.

So you still sin on an occasion and somehow that is labeled 'sinless'?
That is curious

But Jesus didn't suffer and die so I could do perfect math.

I see where you have failed to grasp the gospel. It has nothing to do with your math. His presence within is what produces the same life that He lived in Jesus. Accept this and you will never fall

If you can't glorify God with your submission to Him, there is a problem.

Unless you are watching how I live how would you know?

Using the words of an OT man, who had no choice but to walk in and after the "flesh", makes no sense now that we can destroy the "flesh" and be reborn of God's seed.

A great way to exclude scriptures that are inspired of God to prop up your story.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So you still sin on an occasion and somehow that is labeled 'sinless'?
That is curious

No, I don't.
I walk in God, in Whom is no sin.

I see where you have failed to grasp the gospel. It has nothing to do with your math. His presence within is what produces the same life that He lived in Jesus. Accept this and you will never fall

Talk about curious...
Isn't "never falling" the same as "never falling into sin" ?
Can you admit to never falling ?

Unless you are watching how I live how would you know?

You won't glorify God with a testimony of life without sin !

A great way to exclude scriptures that are inspired of God to prop up your story.

Are you living in Job's time, or Jesus' post resurrection time ?
Job couldn't be perfectly sinless, but we can be in Christ !

 

[leroy]

No, I don't.
I walk in God, in Whom is no sin.

Talk about curious...
Isn't "never falling" the same as "never falling into sin" ?
Can you admit to never falling ?

You won't glorify God with a testimony of life without sin !

Are you living in Job's time, or Jesus' post resurrection time ?
Job couldn't be perfectly sinless, but we can be in Christ !

I appreciate your efforts to communicate your beliefs. As far as, why would a demon want to feel pain while in a human temple... It gives me something to consider . And yet they are there and it seems they would destroy every temple created for God to dwell in. Omnipresence does place God there... I don't see any further reason to banter back and forth for there is no agreement and never will be.

 

[Tenchi]

I think it is intellectual dishonesty

Yes, you've said this before but still you've not shown what you're asserting here. Instead, you've tried to misrepresent my words, or ignore them entirely, or use loaded questions to insinuate things about my thinking that are not actually present in what I've written. When I look through our exchange, this slippery rhetorical stuff you've employed is the only dishonesty that I see.

Now I understand what you believe

I very much doubt it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I appreciate your efforts to communicate your beliefs. As far as, why would a demon want to feel pain while in a human temple..

Where did that topic come from ?

. It gives me something to consider . And yet they are there and it seems they would destroy every temple created for God to dwell in.

If this is a new topic, I'll play along.
Demons can't work in God's temple, the converted, because they can't bind the strong 'man' of Mark 3:27.

Omnipresence does place God there... I don't see any further reason to banter back and forth for there is no agreement and never will be.

Me neither.