What Commandments are in force FOREVER?

[RND]

Rick, you didn't offer an answer.

He died to free me from the Law.

Did Jesus die so you could eat pork? Yes or no. I'll assume anything other than a firm "no" means you think He died to allow you to eat pork.

 

[RND]

9 of the commandments

The "nine" commandments?

The Sabbath was left out

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All means all.

 

[dadof10]

There are many more references, but I have to assume you had already looked those up before you said you didn't believe. If you don't believe the plain warnings from the Bible, then I won't argue...nothing more I can do about that.

I think you need to re-read my post. I AGREE with you. We CAN lose our salvation. Where we disagree is when you say that if a believer lives a moral life (or whatever you want to call keeping the commandments, charity, love of neighbor, etc.), God is OBLIGED to save the person. It was in response to this:

God is obligated to save anyone who repents and turns from sin in order to wilfully walk in obedience to the gospel program. God is also obligated to allow one to be condemned that turns from Him in order to fulfill the lusts of the flesh

The verses you gave say nothing about obliging God. Can you show any verses that put God under obligation to save those who obey Him?

 

[Rick W]

RND,
If the only reason he died was so I could eat pork then all of us are in a lot of trouble.

I keep telling you I'm not under the Old Covanent but the New. If you want to remain under a Covenant that has been superceded by another then that's entirely up to you.

 

[XTruth]

There are many more references, but I have to assume you had already looked those up before you said you didn't believe. If you don't believe the plain warnings from the Bible, then I won't argue...nothing more I can do about that.

I think you need to re-read my post. I AGREE with you. We CAN lose our salvation. Where we disagree is when you say that if a believer lives a moral life (or whatever you want to call keeping the commandments, charity, love of neighbor, etc.), God is OBLIGED to save the person. It was in response to this:

God is obligated to save anyone who repents and turns from sin in order to wilfully walk in obedience to the gospel program. God is also obligated to allow one to be condemned that turns from Him in order to fulfill the lusts of the flesh

The verses you gave say nothing about obliging God. Can you show any verses that put God under obligation to save those who obey Him?

Oh, sorry. I should have gone after the "obligation" aspect... I knew that, my mistake

This is simple... God cannot lie (Tit.1:2; Heb.6:18) and has never sinned (2 Cor.5:21; 1 Pt.2:22; 1 Jn.3:5). Everything written in the Bible is true. Everything God has promised, whether of curses for disobedience or blessings for obedience, He is obligated to act upon every time. If He did not, then He would be showing favoritism, partiality, or respect to person, which He does not do (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25; 1 Pt.1:17). If God did not enforce everyone of His words, then He would be a liar and unjust. God would be a transgressor, a sinner, and guilty (Jas.2:9-10).

Heb.5:9 -And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thess.1:8 -In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

If God says eternal salvation is for those who repent from sin, turning from their wicked ways, and follow Christ in obedience, then He is obligated to do so, lest He is a liar. But no lie is of the truth (1 Jn.2:21), and He is Truth (Jn.14:6). There is absolutely zero darkness in light (1 Jn.1:5). All liars are condemned (Rev.21:8, 27; 22:15). God is no liar (Tit.1:2; Heb.6:18) ;therefore, He is obligated to fulfill ALL HIS promises, whether for curses to the disobedient, or blessings to the obedient... simple right?

 

[RND]

RND,
If the only reason he died was so I could eat pork then all of us are in a lot of trouble.

Yes or no Rick? It's really that simple. You avoidance of answer either in the affirmative or the negative shows that you believe Jesus died so you can east pork.

Since "bestiality" or "child abuse" is not specifically mentioned in the "New Testament" I'll defer on whether you believe those things are OK.

I keep telling you I'm not under the Old Covanent but the New.

The "New" covenant dosen't permit "law breaking" any more than the old did.

If you want to remain under a Covenant that has been superceded by another then that's entirely up to you.

What was contained in the "other" Rick?

 

[XTruth]

9 of the commandments

The "nine" commandments?

The Sabbath was left out

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All means all.

I'm not sure there is a question per say. Yes, all 9 of the moral laws have been re-established in the New Covenant between man and God by the blood of Christ. This covenant supercedes the one made to the natural seed of Abraham by the blood of an animal. The Sabbath was never re-established, we are free to worship and rest on any day we want...doesn't even have to be on the same day for both. The Old covenant called the Mosaic Law has been abolished (Acts 15:1, 24; Rom.7:6; 10:4; 2 Cor.3:6-15; Gal.4:19-31; Eph.2:15; Col.2:14-17; Heb.7:12, 18-19; 8:6-13; 10:9 (10:1-18)).

The Mosaic Law could not justify (Gal.2:16; 3:11; 5:4), brings only a curse (Gal.3:10), is not of faith (Gal.3:12), cannot give an inheritance (Gal.3:18), was added only to make sin sinful (Gal.3:19; Rom.3:19-20; 7:13; 1 Jn.3:4), was given only until Christ came (Gal.3:19, 23-25; Heb.7:28; 9:9-10; Lk.16:16), could not give life or righteousness (Gal.3:21), was a schoolmaster to lead to Christ (Gal.3:24-26; Mat.11:11; Lk.16:16), is not for Christians (Gal.3:19-25), makes servants, not sons (Gal.4:1-3), brings bondage (Gal.4:9, 24; 5:1), was a religion of days (Gal.4:10), could not give the new birth (Gal.4:28-30), was cast out (Gal.4:21-31), demanded circumcision (Gal.5:2-3), if observed, cancels grace (Gal.5:4).

But yes, 2 Tim.3:16 is certainly true.

 

[Rick W]

The work Christ did on the cross allows me the freedom to eat pork. That work also allows you to abstain from eating pork if that's what you want to do.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Mark 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Romans 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Romans 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Romans 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.



Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Again, I will not judge you for your dietary selection but will respect your choice.

 

[Rick W]

I'm not sure why you think I copied and pasted from a site... I have only copy and pasted from the book I wrote, which is on file on my computer. I do hope that is not against this forums rules to quote something I have previously written.

Yes, I have written a book and post from it. I don't know what thenetgathering is or what it has to do with post I have written myself, but I will look it over. Thanks

Yes, I'd say you should. "thenetgathering" isn't a forum. You may have a legal complaint.



The Net Gathering Ministries


http://www.thenetgathering.org/Beliefs.html

6. The Doctrine of Salvation:
See "Life in the Son" by Robert Shank

A. Repentance and Belief.

There is no Salvation apart from Biblical Repentance that is manifested by a change of direction, attitudes and lifestyle, and that is in agreement with the Holiness moral of God’s eternal truth, His Word.


B. Salvation is a Person, Jesus Christ (John 14:6, Romans 1:16).


We completely reject the unbiblical teaching of Calvinism, the so-called Five points of Calvinism. Also we are against any teaching that teaches “Cheap grace†at the expense of God’s holiness. Only those who remain a faithful witness to Jesus Christ, overcoming till the end of their earthly lives or when the Lord’s returns are called “saved†and will reign with Him in the Millennium and then in Eternity future, that is the New Heaven and Earth as the Scriptures teach.

C. Grace - See the article "The Truth about Grace" PDF Word

PDF
http://www.thenetgathering.org/Teaching ... 0Grace.pdf

Word
http://www.thenetgathering.org/Teaching ... 0Grace.doc

Copyright © 2006 The Net Gathering Ministries - All Rights Reserved

From the article on the site: (Prefacing what you have already posted)

The Truth about Grace
(From Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible pages 100 and 226)

1 Thes. 3:5 – For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labor be in vain.

Why would His labor be in vain if there was no possibility of Satan tempting Christians, causing them to fall and be lost? Surely Paul understood the grace of God and its limitations to those who refuse to obey the gospel, for he used the word 110 of the 156 times the Greek Charis (grace) is found in the N.T.
It is true that grace cannot be withheld from man because of demerit, lessened by demerit, or be mixed with the law of works; but this does not prove that there are no conditions men must meet in order to get the benefits of grace. Not one scripture teaches unconditional grace, or that God gives grace to men who disobey the gospel. If so, then God is under obligation to save all, even sinners who disobey if He saves even one (Rom 2:11). God is under obligation to saints only when they walk in the light and remain true to the gospel (1 Jn 1:7). He is not under obligation to sinners until they come to full obedience of the gospel. Grace teaches men to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously, and godly here and now (Titus 2:11-12). If men do not obey its teaching grace can go no further.

Anyone may:

1. Receive Grace in vain. (2 Cor. 6:1)
2. Frustrate it in his life. (Gal 2:21)
3. Fall from It. (Gal. 1:6-8; 5:4)
4. Fail of the grace of God (Heb. 12:15)
5. Turn it into Lasciviousness. (Jude 4)
6. Sin in spite of it. (Rom. 6:1)
7. Continue or discontinue in it. (Acts 13:43)
8. Minister it to others. (I Pet 4:10)
9. Grow or not grow in it. (2 Peter 3:18)
10. Receive or reject it (Jn 3:16; Rev 22:17; Heb 12:15; Jas. 4:6).

II) – Thirty things grace cannot do; It cannot

1. Set aside forever all condemnation for future sins. (Jn 5:14; 8:34; Rom 6:1-23; 8:12-13; Gal. 5:21; 2 Cor 5:10)
2. Set aside failure of saved men to meet the many conditions of salvation. (1 Jn.1: 7; Rom 6:1-23; 8:1-13; Jas. 5: 19-20; Gal 5:19-21; Col 1:23; 2:6-7)
- - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - -

 

[XTruth]

I'm not sure why you think I copied and pasted from a site... I have only copy and pasted from the book I wrote, which is on file on my computer. I do hope that is not against this forums rules to quote something I have previously written.

Yes, I have written a book and post from it. I don't know what thenetgathering is or what it has to do with post I have written myself, but I will look it over. Thanks

Yes, I'd say you should. "thenetgathering" isn't a forum. You may have a legal complaint.



The Net Gathering Ministries


http://www.thenetgathering.org/Beliefs.html

6. The Doctrine of Salvation:
See "Life in the Son" by Robert Shank

A. Repentance and Belief.

There is no Salvation apart from Biblical Repentance that is manifested by a change of direction, attitudes and lifestyle, and that is in agreement with the Holiness moral of God’s eternal truth, His Word.


B. Salvation is a Person, Jesus Christ (John 14:6, Romans 1:16).


We completely reject the unbiblical teaching of Calvinism, the so-called Five points of Calvinism. Also we are against any teaching that teaches “Cheap grace†at the expense of God’s holiness. Only those who remain a faithful witness to Jesus Christ, overcoming till the end of their earthly lives or when the Lord’s returns are called “saved†and will reign with Him in the Millennium and then in Eternity future, that is the New Heaven and Earth as the Scriptures teach.

C. Grace - See the article "The Truth about Grace" PDF Word

PDF
http://www.thenetgathering.org/Teaching ... 0Grace.pdf

Word
http://www.thenetgathering.org/Teaching ... 0Grace.doc

Copyright © 2006 The Net Gathering Ministries - All Rights Reserved

From the article on the site: (Prefacing what you have already posted)

The Truth about Grace
(From Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible pages 100 and 226)

1 Thes. 3:5 – For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labor be in vain.

Why would His labor be in vain if there was no possibility of Satan tempting Christians, causing them to fall and be lost? Surely Paul understood the grace of God and its limitations to those who refuse to obey the gospel, for he used the word 110 of the 156 times the Greek Charis (grace) is found in the N.T.
It is true that grace cannot be withheld from man because of demerit, lessened by demerit, or be mixed with the law of works; but this does not prove that there are no conditions men must meet in order to get the benefits of grace. Not one scripture teaches unconditional grace, or that God gives grace to men who disobey the gospel. If so, then God is under obligation to save all, even sinners who disobey if He saves even one (Rom 2:11). God is under obligation to saints only when they walk in the light and remain true to the gospel (1 Jn 1:7). He is not under obligation to sinners until they come to full obedience of the gospel. Grace teaches men to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously, and godly here and now (Titus 2:11-12). If men do not obey its teaching grace can go no further.

Anyone may:

1. Receive Grace in vain. (2 Cor. 6:1)
2. Frustrate it in his life. (Gal 2:21)
3. Fall from It. (Gal. 1:6-8; 5:4)
4. Fail of the grace of God (Heb. 12:15)
5. Turn it into Lasciviousness. (Jude 4)
6. Sin in spite of it. (Rom. 6:1)
7. Continue or discontinue in it. (Acts 13:43)
8. Minister it to others. (I Pet 4:10)
9. Grow or not grow in it. (2 Peter 3:18)
10. Receive or reject it (Jn 3:16; Rev 22:17; Heb 12:15; Jas. 4:6).

II) – Thirty things grace cannot do; It cannot

1. Set aside forever all condemnation for future sins. (Jn 5:14; 8:34; Rom 6:1-23; 8:12-13; Gal. 5:21; 2 Cor 5:10)
2. Set aside failure of saved men to meet the many conditions of salvation. (1 Jn.1: 7; Rom 6:1-23; 8:1-13; Jas. 5: 19-20; Gal 5:19-21; Col 1:23; 2:6-7)
- - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - -

Wow! impressive! I will definitely look at that site...wouldn't want to set sued for teaching what others have taught me by their notes...backed with tons of Scripture. I actually did reference Dake's Annotated Reference Bible in my book...didn't realize I needed to give constant credit to an intermediate teacher for every post when the focus should be on pointing people to what Scripture really claims throughout. But hey, I know everything is a legal matter and everyone wants credit for everything...or maybe some don't care if the spotlight is ever directed their way. Some just want to reference everything they say with scriptures in order to validate things they say with the Word of God, and not as mere human philosophies of what "I think..."

This isn't against you, I know you are just warning me of the people that would be so self-seeking as to make sure repeats of ANY teachings from God's Word are properly credited to who taught them. In theory, everything we post should tell who taught us that information and what sources they used. In theory, there shouldn't be a time barrier either...such as the writers of the Bible. I noticed a post on this thread from you to me that semi-quoted many Bible verses, but you gave no reference to the writer in the Bible, nor the place they can even be found...such as Romans 7... I responded to the state Paul was really in when writing Rom.7, but it wasn't because you even so much as referenced what you were talking about with a verse.

Now, I know that the writers of the Bible weren't concerned with copywriting or getting referenced by name. They wanted people to spread what they wrote word for word. Dake's Reference Bible was written with the same motives. He has listed 35,000 notes and comments, 9,000 informative headings, 500,000 cross-references, 3,400 small written note columns, 2,000 illustrations, and over 8,000 outlines (All numbers found on the Preface page of the Dake's Annotated Reference Bible). All with the motive of helping Sunday school teachers and scholars with their weekly lessons, and people like me who just want to study Scripture because they hunger and thirst for righteousness and can't find solid food in any nearby churches...then, teach the clearness and truth of what the Word of God does and does not claim. Dake didn't want his name to be mentioned every Sunday from the pulpit in order to give him credit or glory... it was to point people to God in every aspect. If people read my book, I don't want them teaching from what I've written and reference my name...In theory we should reference all our pastor's and teacher's names we learned from after we post from what we learned directly relating to what they taught us.

But I know that you are only trying to protect me from the powers that be that would sue me for teaching something from a study Bible and not referencing the studt Bible used, whether or not a Christian backs up everything by the Word of God is surely irrelevant. Thank you for your shepherd's guide :nod ...I appreciate that. Of course the gas used to come get everything I own wouldn't be worth the gas used :biglol You have made your point with this repeated warning of the legal trouble I might be in from breaking the law of not repeating every source I've ever learned from (though I have given more Biblical referencesfor one claim than most give in an entire post). I'd say I have given credit where credit is due. But I know some would like to take focus off of Biblical truths presented by focusing on this, even though it could've been done in a PM instead of hijacking a thread that was going quite well and teaching a lot of unknown Bible truths to zealous Christians who are just a little misinformed as to the commandments in relation to the covenants throughout the Bible (who they were given to, for how long, why, etc). So yes, I will reference absolutely everything I post from now on as far as humanly possible in relation to who I learned it from.

Back to the actual thread please

 

[Rick W]

Good. No, you don't need to credit all that you find on the net but you really shouldn't take credit for writing it either. Twice. The first time I may question but the second time I'll research.

The opening paragraph demonstrates a belief in God's obligation. I find that interesting nonetheless. And it's a belief you hold to and have posted.

It is true that grace cannot be withheld from man because of demerit, lessened by demerit, or be mixed with the law of works; but this does not prove that there are no conditions men must meet in order to get the benefits of grace. Not one scripture teaches unconditional grace, or that God gives grace to men who disobey the gospel. If so, then God is under obligation to save all, even sinners who disobey if He saves even one (Rom 2:11). God is under obligation to saints only when they walk in the light and remain true to the gospel (1 Jn 1:7). He is not under obligation to sinners until they come to full obedience of the gospel. Grace teaches men to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously, and godly here and now (Titus 2:11-12). If men do not obey its teaching grace can go no further.

 

[RND]

9 of the commandments

The "nine" commandments?

The Sabbath was left out

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All means all.

I'm not sure there is a question per say. Yes, all 9 of the moral laws have been re-established in the New Covenant between man and God by the blood of Christ. This covenant supercedes the one made to the natural seed of Abraham by the blood of an animal. The Sabbath was never re-established, we are free to worship and rest on any day we want...doesn't even have to be on the same day for both. The Old covenant called the Mosaic Law has been abolished (Acts 15:1, 24; Rom.7:6; 10:4; 2 Cor.3:6-15; Gal.4:19-31; Eph.2:15; Col.2:14-17; Heb.7:12, 18-19; 8:6-13; 10:9 (10:1-18)).

The Mosaic Law could not justify (Gal.2:16; 3:11; 5:4), brings only a curse (Gal.3:10), is not of faith (Gal.3:12), cannot give an inheritance (Gal.3:18), was added only to make sin sinful (Gal.3:19; Rom.3:19-20; 7:13; 1 Jn.3:4), was given only until Christ came (Gal.3:19, 23-25; Heb.7:28; 9:9-10; Lk.16:16), could not give life or righteousness (Gal.3:21), was a schoolmaster to lead to Christ (Gal.3:24-26; Mat.11:11; Lk.16:16), is not for Christians (Gal.3:19-25), makes servants, not sons (Gal.4:1-3), brings bondage (Gal.4:9, 24; 5:1), was a religion of days (Gal.4:10), could not give the new birth (Gal.4:28-30), was cast out (Gal.4:21-31), demanded circumcision (Gal.5:2-3), if observed, cancels grace (Gal.5:4).

But yes, 2 Tim.3:16 is certainly true.

Let's study in truth and light........

First of all, here's the words of Yeshua himself:

Matthew 5:17-19
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you don't like the New Living Translation, here's the New King James:

NKJV Matt. 5:17-19
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And of course, here's my favorite, the CJB/Stern:

Matt. 5:17-19
“Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah – not until everything that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Essentially, all of these versions agree. Yeshua DID NOT COME TO ABOLISH TORAH. And we KNOW He had the authority to do so, from this passage:

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
“ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested ADONAI your God, ‘Don’t let me hear the voice of ADONAI my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!’ On that occasion ADONAI said to me, ‘They are right in what they are saying. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. Whoever doesn’t listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.

Yeshua is that prophet "like unto Moses" and if He had wanted to abolish the Torah itself, He could have and would have, but here it says He chose not to, according to Matthew. So, even if he appears to be changing Torah, we have to remember that He said he did not come to do that, so maybe, just maybe, there's something we're missing through 20 centuries of time and culture.

Tim, on a side-note, you mentioned earlier you "weren't sure" or words to that effect with the "fill up with meaning" definition of "fulfilled." So I researched it for discussion.

In the Matthew quote above, Yeshua says He has not come to abolish but to fulfill/complete. The frequent Messianic rendering is "to fill up with meaning." Well, I went to no lesser authority than Strong's Concordance for you. Here's the Greek word being used in that passage, rendered as fulfilled/completed, is Strong #4137 - PLEROO:

4137 pleroo {play-ro'-o} (Sorry, the Greek font didn't transfer)
• from 4134; TDNT - 6:286,867; v
• AV - fulfil 51, fill 19, be full 7, complete 2, end 2, misc 9; 90
• 1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full 1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally 1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied 2) to render full, i.e. to complete 2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim 2b) to consummate: a number 2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect 2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking) 2c) to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize 2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute 2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish 2c3) to fulfill, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment

That's the complete definition, and please note that "to fill up" and similar renderings make up most of the preferred translations.

So now, if you still are not sure about it, your issue is with Strong's Concordance, not with me.

Still, some might continue to question whether Yeshua did or did not change/abolish the Torah, since some passages seem to indicate that. Let's use a great and oft-misunderstood example:

Here's my favorite translation:

Mark 7:6-19
Yeshua answered them, “Yesha‘yahu was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites!– as it is written, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man–made rules as if they were doctrines.’ You depart from God’s command and hold onto human tradition. Indeed,†he said to them, “you have made a fine art of departing from God’s command in order to keep your tradition! For Moshe said, ‘Honor your father and your mother, ‘and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.‘ But you say, ‘If someone says to his father or mother, “I have promised as a korbanâ€Â’†“‘“what I might have used to help you, â€Â’ then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus, with your tradition which you had handed down to you, you nullify the Word of God! And you do other things like this.†Then Yeshua called the people to him again and said, “Listen to me, all of you, and understand this! There is nothing outside a person which, by going into him, can make him unclean. Rather, it is the things that come out of a person which make a person unclean!†When he had left the people and entered the house, his talmidim asked him about the parable. He replied to them, “So you too are without understanding? Don’t you see that nothing going into a person from outside can make him unclean? For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and it passes out into the latrine.†(Thus he declared all foods ritually clean.)

Here's a more familiar King James rendering

Mark 7:6-19
He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of menâ€â€the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.†He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corbanâ€Ââ€â€Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ (that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.†When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!†When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?â€Â

Interestingly, no version of the King James (AV, KJV, NKJV, 21KJV, AKJV) that I looked at includes that parenthetical comment about "thus He declared all foods ritually clean." It seems to have popped up with the NIV and caught hold from there in all modern translations since, including the Stern/CJB.

Whether that parenthetical statement belongs there or not, though, doesn't matter to my point, which is this:

This statement, this passage is NOT about pork, lobster, shrimp and other foods God declared unclean for human consumption. You see, you HAVE to take that statement in context! That's why I quoted so much of it. The discussion had been about HAND-WASHING, not pork!

There exist many Oral Torah teachings - the traditions of men, which is what Yeshua railed against, not the written Torah of Moses - that talk about the RITUAL WASHING OF HANDS and how, if someone fails to do it, they are just really bad people. But it's nowhere in the Torah.

This ritual washing of hands was not what we think of today. Even if you had taken a complete bath, you had to do this hand-washing ritual to handle food... if you did not, the food itself was declared unclean. (I didn't copy down these Oral Torah traditions, I'm just summarizing them.)

Yeshua and his disciples wouldn't have even considered pork food. This whole thing is about whether what is outside your body (food touched by ritually unwashed hands) can make you unclean, or whether it is what comes out of the body that makes you unclean. Pork and other unclean foods have NOTHING to do with it. It is imposed on the text by those who wish to win a debate on whether the Torah was done away with... and apparently, the paranthetical statement was never in the KJB, Young's Literal, or any of the older translations, so that appears to be a modern invention.

But either way, it doesn't matter. The passage was about hand-washing making foods unclean (a tradition of man), not about Yeshua abolishing the clean/unclean foods teaching of Mosaic law (a command of God).

So, what is the potential cost of misunderstanding this? Again, it's not a salvation issue, but an obedience issue. But I would take into consideration this warning:

NLT Deut. 29:19
Let none of those who hear the warnings of this curse consider themselves immune, thinking, 'I am safe, even though I am walking in my own stubborn way.' This would lead to utter ruin!

And here's the NKJV:

NKJV Deut. 29:19
"and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, 'I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart' -- as though the drunkard could be included with the sober.

And here's the Stern/CJB:

CJB Deut. 29:19 (29:18)
If there is such a person, when he hears the words of this curse, he will bless himself secretly, saying to himself, ‘I will be all right, even though I will stubbornly keep doing whatever I feel like doing; so that Ialthough “dry, â€Â(sinful,)will be added to the “watered†(righteous).’

Such variances!

But the point remains valid in all three: Yes, we can continue to cling to our human traditions over the commands of God and be saved... but we might not get that "well done, thou good and faithful servant" most of us are expecting when we do. Utter ruin? A drunk among the sober? To be dry among the watered? None of that sounds particularly desirable... and eternity's forever, baby!

 

[XTruth]

Good. No, you don't need to credit all that you find on the net but you really shouldn't take credit for writing it either. Twice. The first time I may question but the second time I'll research.

The opening paragraph demonstrates a belief in God's obligation. I find that interesting nonetheless. And it's a belief you hold to and have posted.

It is true that grace cannot be withheld from man because of demerit, lessened by demerit, or be mixed with the law of works; but this does not prove that there are no conditions men must meet in order to get the benefits of grace. Not one scripture teaches unconditional grace, or that God gives grace to men who disobey the gospel. If so, then God is under obligation to save all, even sinners who disobey if He saves even one (Rom 2:11). God is under obligation to saints only when they walk in the light and remain true to the gospel (1 Jn 1:7). He is not under obligation to sinners until they come to full obedience of the gospel. Grace teaches men to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously, and godly here and now (Titus 2:11-12). If men do not obey its teaching grace can go no further.

You used this before and I don't understand why. I think we must be reading the same thing, but looking at it differently. I agree with the paragraph and the underlined. Correct me if I am understanding what you are thinkikg poorly. It seems that you think I'm saying that God is obligated to keep one in His grace no matter what. I have clearly said the opposite in my short stay in this forum. God is obligated to all His promises whether the person is righteous or not. When God says He will forget His people who forget His laws, then He is obligated to keep that promise. When one is righteous and promised to be swued out of His mouth like lukewarm water for being a dormit Christian, then He must. When the righteous is promised to spiritually die for sinning, then it must be so. When the righteous are told that they will be cut away from Christ for producing zero fruit and then thrown into hell, then God is obligated to do so. When the sinner is told that the spiritual death penalty will be taken away when they repent and follow righteousness, then God is obligated to do so. When the saint is told to keep following Christ's sayings all the way through the narrow gate, lest they fall from grace, then God is obligated to do so. When God says He will not forsake those who abide in Him, but will forsake those who end up forsaking His ways, then He is obligated to do so. All the promises in the Bible come with conditions. If the conditions for blessings are not met, then the promises cannot be fulfilled. In that case, the individual must be in disobedience to the conditions, therefore God is still obligated to keep His promises, but these promises are the ones to the disobedient. Are we saying the same thing or not?

 

[Rick W]

I've known people who didn't care about the Gospel much less live by it that were saved. And I do mean just that... saved. Pastor Terry Long of Calvary Chapel in Salt Lake City is just one example. He was a hoodlum totally in rebellion against God with no time to read the bible before being saved let alone pursue a Gospel driven life. Two others, very close friends who discipled me in scripture, testified to the same thing. I too was leading a life of sex, drugs and loud rock-n-roll but in a moment all that changed and I was born-again.
There are many in Salt Lake City who you would be hard put to say their lives weren't in accordance to the Gospels but yet I have little doubt you would claim they are saved or ever will be. If these people who read the Gospels on a daily basis have it wrong then how can one expect an unbeliever to lead a Gospel driven life?
God is sovereign. Not us.
If it's your claim that by grace we are given the chance to be saved then I honestly believe you advocate a works-centered doctrine. Those people in Salt Lake City are taught exactly the same thing. In fact it's their culture. Do good always, treat your neighbor with respect, pay your tithes, attend church on a regular basis, pray to God giving thanks for everything with the belief that Christ died, was buried and rose again and you will receive your just reward of salvation. And I can tell you their lives and what they do can put many Gospel-believing Christians to shame. On a regular basis. No question of that I assure you.
Many other religions teach the very same thing. Do this and/or that and you will become worthy to stand before the judgment seat and claim what God is obligated to give you, everlasting life.

 

[XTruth]

I've known people who didn't care about the Gospel much less live by it that were saved. And I do mean just that... saved. Pastor Terry Long of Calvary Chapel in Salt Lake City is just one example. He was a hoodlum totally in rebellion against God with no time to read the bible before being saved let alone pursue a Gospel driven life. Two others, very close friends who discipled me in scripture, testified to the same thing. I too was leading a life of sex, drugs and loud rock-n-roll but in a moment all that changed and I was born-again.
There are many in Salt Lake City who you would be hard put to say their lives weren't in accordance to the Gospels but yet I have little doubt you would claim they are saved or ever will be. If these people who read the Gospels on a daily basis have it wrong then how can one expect an unbeliever to lead a Gospel driven life?
God is sovereign. Not us.
If it's your claim that by grace we are given the chance to be saved then I honestly believe you advocate a works-centered doctrine. Those people in Salt Lake City are taught exactly the same thing. In fact it's their culture. Do good always, treat your neighbor with respect, pay your tithes, attend church on a regular basis, pray to God giving thanks for everything with the belief that Christ died, was buried and rose again and you will receive your just reward of salvation. And I can tell you their lives and what they do can put many Gospel-believing Christians to shame. On a regular basis. No question of that I assure you.
Many other religions teach the very same thing. Do this and/or that and you will become worthy to stand before the judgment seat and claim what God is obligated to give you, everlasting life.

Okay, I do advocate a works-centered doctrine...not to be saved from past sins, but to remain justified by my works of obedience to the gospel commands so that I won't be condemned by sin again. It is only by Christ that we can be justified (made innocent). After that, it is us who must continue to follow Christ in order to stay on the narrow path, which is only accomplished by following His ways, words, sayings, authority, and commandments. Do you see that it is works that justifies, and not faith alone? Sounds like a one on one debate time as far as works and salvation...OSAS.

 

[Rick W]

Do you see that it is works that justifies, and not faith alone? Sounds like a one on one debate time as far as works and salvation...OSAS.

Debate? To what end? You'll believe as you will and so will I.
I now know exactly where you are coming from.

 

[RND]

Here is a great study from a Messianic rabbit that is very illuminating regarding the topic.

ARE ALL FOODS CLEAN?

In Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 God gives us a list of animals that are not to be eaten as food. Included in this list declared "unclean" are some of man's favorites: swine, shrimp, lobster, crab, catfish, as well as squid, rabbit, squirrel, etc. However, there are several places in the New Testament where God seems to indicate that He has changed His mind on these things:

MARK 7:18 And he said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (NASU)

ROMANS 14:14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. (NIV)

ACTS 10:10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." 14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." (NIV)

On the surface, it looks pretty clear, doesn't it? Go ahead and eat what you want, God has given you the green light. But has God really changed his mind? Are these animals listed in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 now OK to eat?

In Malachi 3:6, God declares that He does NOT change. This would seem to indicate the opposite of what's stated above. In order to determine if God has really changed His position on the issue of clean and unclean foods (considered important enough to be included in the Torah twice), let's look at the passages above (and a few others) in more detail. You may be surprised at what the Scriptures really say on this topic.

Let's begin in the seventh chapter of Mark. In order to fully understand Yeshua's words, we'll start at the first of the chapter and get the context:

MARK 7:1 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled [koinais], that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" (NKJV)

This passage is the background context for what Yeshua states afterward. As the Scripture shows, the problem that arose was related to Messiah's disciples not washing their hands in the traditional way. The reason for this specialized washing was for ceremonial purity, not cleanliness.

The word translated "defiled" in verse 2 is a form of the Greek adjective koinos. Like many words, this word and the related verb koinoo (along with their variations) can be used positively or negatively. In the positive sense, these related words mean "common," such as in Acts 2:44 and 4:32, where the disciples of Messiah were said to have had "all things in common." In a negative context, these words are used to contrast the "holy" with that which is "common," "defiled," or "profane." This is the sense in which koinais is used in Mark 7:2.

Yeshua uses the Pharisees' criticism of his disciples over a non-biblical ritual to launch a scathing attack on their use of human traditions to override the scriptural commandments of God. He then spoke a parable to the crowd to illustrate the true cause of spiritual defilement:

MARK 7:14 When he had called all the multitude to himself, he said to them, "Hear me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile [koinosai] him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile [koinounta] a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"(NKJV)

As with most parables Yeshua used, this one was not readily understood (Matt. 13:10-15). The disciples asked Yeshua for a further explanation of what he meant:

MARK 7:17 When he had entered a house away from the crowd, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. 18 So he said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile [koinosai] him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" 20 And he said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles [koinoi] a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile [koinoi] a man." (NKJV)

Yeshua explained to his disciples that those things which go into a man's body from the outside (such as dirt from unwashed hands) do not keep a man from being holy. Instead, the evil things that come out of a man's heart and lead him to commit sin are the things that prevent him from being holy.

Now let's look more closely at verse 19. The New King James Version renders this verse differently than does the New American Standard Bible 1995 update cited at the beginning of this article. The NASU (and most other modern translations) ends Yeshua's quotation after "eliminated" (ekporeuetai) and sets off the final phrase as an explanatory comment by Mark. According to this interpretation, Yeshua was using the parable to declare all animals to be edible, in contradiction to Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. However, the NKJV considers this entire verse to be the words of Yeshua.

Why is there a difference between the two?

The reason for the differing translations is a ONE letter variation between the Greek manuscript base used by the NKJV translators and the manuscript base used by the translators of other modern versions (such as the NASU). The vast majority of the Greek manuscripts of Mark end verse 19 with the conclusion to Yeshua's statement being ". . . thus cleansing all foods" (Gr. katharizon panta ta bromata). The "o" in katharizon (καθαÃÂιζον, "cleansing") is the Greek letter omicron (ο). However, a very few Greek manuscripts instead have katharizon (καθαÃÂιζÉν) spelled with the "o" being the Greek letter omega (É) instead of omicron. The omega changes the word's gender from neuter to masculine, allowing for the difference in translation.

Without getting into a technical debate regarding Greek grammar or the pros and cons of each manuscript base, the overwhelming textual evidence supports the NKJV rendering of verse 19 over the NASU translation.

Most Greek manuscripts of Mark 7:19 literally read: "Because it does not enter into his heart, but into the stomach, and into the toilet passes, cleansing all foods." It is clear that Yeshua is not declaring all foods "clean" here, because the cleansing process he refers to is digestion, which ultimately leads to defecation. Yeshua' point here appears obvious: Breaking God's law defiles a man, not non-adherence to man-made traditions. This parable has nothing to say about eating unclean animals.

Next, let's look at the experience of Peter recorded in Acts 10 to see if it supports eating unclean animals. As we did with Mark 7, let's start at the beginning to get the proper context:

ACTS 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do." 7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually. 8 So when he had explained all these things to them, he sent them to Joppa. (NKJV)

Here we see that Cornelius, a God-fearing Roman centurion, was given a vision of a holy angel. In the vision, the angel told him to send for Simon Peter and have him come to his house in Caesarea. In obedience to the words of the angel, Cornelius sent THREE men (two of his household servants and one of his soldiers) to get Peter. That particular number will be important a little later in the story:

ACTS 10:9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." 14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common [koinon] or unclean [akatharton]." 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed [ekatharisen] you must not call common [koinou]." 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again. (NKJV)

Notice the situation; Peter went to the rooftop about noon to pray at the same time the three men from Cornelius were drawing near. After he had finished praying, he became very hungry. While those in the house were preparing the noon meal, Peter (still on the roof) fell into a trance and had a vision. In this vision, he saw a sheet being let down from above with all kinds of animals in it, both clean and unclean.

When a supernatural voice told him to rise, kill and eat, Peter responded the way any good Torah-observant Jew of the 1st century would have. He refused, saying that he had NEVER eaten anything "common" (koinon) or "unclean" (akatharton). That statement by itself is interesting, considering that it had probably been at least ten years since the resurrection of Messiah at that time. Clearly, Peter did not take Yeshua's words recorded in Mark 7 (examined above) to mean that any animal could legally be eaten.

Why did Peter differentiate between "common" ("defiled") and "unclean" in his reply? The Greek word akatharton specifically refers to those animals prohibited from being eaten in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, as an examination of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament clearly shows. But "common" referred to a different group of animals altogether. Only clean animals designated as food sources in the Torah could become "common" or "defiled" in such a way that they became inedible.

Peter was saying here that he had never eaten any "unclean" animals or any clean animals that had been "defiled" ceremonially. The angel's answer to Peter is interesting; it conclusively shows that food is not the subject of this vision at all. The angel told Peter not to call "common" that which God had cleansed (ekatharisen). There is no mention of the "unclean" here at all by the angel. This statement was repeated three times before the vision ended.

ACTS 10:17 Now while Peter wondered within himself what this vision which he had seen meant, behold, the men who had been sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate. 18 And they called and asked whether Simon, whose surname was Peter, was lodging there. 19 While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you. 20 Arise therefore, go down and go with them, doubting nothing; for I have sent them." (NKJV)

Notice that Peter did not immediately understand the vision. As he sat on the roof contemplating what the vision meant, the three men from Cornelius arrived. God's Spirit let Peter know that he was to go down and go with the men. At this point Peter likely began to understand the vision and the reason that the angel had repeated his message three times (once for each of the Gentiles sent by Cornelius to fetch him):

ACTS 10:21 Then Peter went down to the men who had been sent to him from Cornelius, and said, "Yes, I am he whom you seek. For what reason have you come?" 22 And they said, "Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you." 23 Then he invited them in and lodged them. On the next day Peter went away with them, and some brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And the following day they entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man." 27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many who had come together. 28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man COMMON [koinon] or UNCLEAN [akatharton]. 29 Therefore I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. . . ." (NKJV)

By the time Peter arrived at Cornelius' house, he fully understood the purpose of the vision given to him on the rooftop. It was not meant to allow the consumption of prohibited animals as food, but rather it was designed to show Peter (and the rest of the messianic Jews) that God was now calling people that they considered to be defiled into His family. No longer could the messianic Jews justify not keeping company with or going to a Gentile (a tenet of the oral law, not the written Torah). Instead, God showed Peter (and through him the rest of the messianic Jews) that he must accept these people as part of His chosen nation Israel.

Peter was told by the angel in Acts 10:15 that what God had cleansed (ekatharisen) he was not to call "defiled." A review of the usage of the Greek root word katharizo ("cleanse") in the Gospels illustrates the point God was making more fully. This word and its variants are used several times to describe the cleansing of leprosy by Yeshua and his disciples (Matt. 8:2-3; 10:8; 11:5; Mark 1:40-42; Luke 4:27; 5:12-13; 7:22; 17:12-19). Just as Yeshua physically cleansed many lepers of their disease, God was showing Peter that He was spiritually cleansing the Gentiles of their impurities (Acts 15:9; Eph. 5:26; Titus 2:14; Heb. 9:14, 22-23; I John 1:7-9) through the blood of Messiah. When properly understood, this passage of Scripture has absolutely nothing to say about the consumption of unclean animals.

Now let's look at Romans 14 in detail. In his letter to the Romans, Paul is addressing a congregation composed of both Jews and Gentiles. Although Paul had never been to Rome to meet with the assembly there (Rom. 1:10-15), he had apparently heard of some problems between the two factions which motivated him to write them. His letter to the Romans is a compilation of instructions and explanations to help these two groups coexist as one unified body.

The entire chapter deals with food customs that were dividing the Roman congregation. From the beginning of Romans 14 to the end, food and drink are mentioned 16 times. There were two specific problems related to eating and drinking that Paul addresses in this chapter:

(1) WHAT to eat or not eat, and

(2) WHEN to eat or not eat.

Both of these issues are introduced by Paul in this chapter, along with his solutions to the difficulties they were causing the Roman assembly.

The first problem is mentioned by Paul in Romans 14:2:

ROMANS 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. (NIV)

Paul begins this chapter by telling the Romans not to pass judgment on one another in regards to differences of opinion. He then defines one of the areas where the Roman believers were judging each other (eating meat versus eating only vegetables).

Why would this issue present a problem for the Roman congregation? Romans 14:14 holds the key to answering that question:

ROMANS 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean [koinon] of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean [koinon], to him it is unclean [koinon]. (NKJV)

The underlying Greek word translated "unclean" is koinon. As it is in the passages we've already looked at from Mark 7 and Acts 10, this word would be better translated "common" or "defiled."

Verse 14, when translated properly, should read: "I know and am convinced by the Lord Yeshua that there is nothing defiled of itself; but to him who considers anything to be defiled, to him it is defiled."

This verse is really the key to understanding why some in the Roman assembly would not eat meat. There were those in the congregation that considered the meat sold in the meat markets to be ceremonially "defiled" (koinon).

But what was it that caused some in the Roman congregation to view the meat this way? The most likely reason was that they assumed most of the meat sold in the local market was defiled because it had been offered in sacrifice to idols.

Paul had addressed a similar situation which arose in Corinth (I Cor. 10:18-28). His answer to the Corinthians' concerns over this issue was that they should eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience about whether the meat had been sacrificed to an idol (I Cor. 10:25). But if they knew for certain that meat had been sacrificed to an idol, they were to avoid eating it (I Cor. 10:28).

Paul's advice to the Romans was very comparable. He said he was convinced that nothing was defiled of itself. In other words, he told the Roman believers not to automatically assume that meat sold in the marketplace had been sacrificed to idols. However, he went on, if someone in the congregation could not in good conscience eat such meat (because they could not be certain it had not been sacrificed to an idol), then to him it was defiled and he shouldn't eat it.

Obviously, Romans 14:14 has nothing to do with eating unclean meats.

In Romans 14:5, Paul addresses the second "eating" problem:

ROMANS 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. (NKJV)

What is Paul talking about here? In the first problem, he clearly explains the dispute. But here, the problem is not quite as evident. In verse 6, Paul mentions "he who eats" and contrasts him with "he who does not eat."

The second area of contention over eating in the Roman assembly was a question about when it was proper (or expected) that congregation members would fast. It is in this context that Paul speaks of "one who esteems one day above another" (Rom. 14:5).

The very issue of setting aside particular days for fasting was a contentious one in the early church. The Didache (also known as The Teaching of The Twelve Apostles), written sometime between 80-150 A.D., addresses this exact controversy:

DIDACHE 8:1 Be careful not to schedule your fasts at the times when the hypocrites fast. They fast on the second (Monday) and fifth (Thursday) day of the week, therefore make your fast on the fourth (Wednesday) day and the Preparation day (Friday, the day of preparation for the Sabbath-Saturday). (The Didache, 1998 translation by Ivan Lewis)

"The hypocrites" mentioned here is a reference to the Pharisees. The author of The Didache urged believers in Yeshua to fast on days other than those chosen by the Pharisees. In agreement with The Didache, the Mishnah indicates in tract Taanit that the Pharisees fasted on Monday and Thursday. This is also alluded to in Luke's Gospel:

LUKE 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men – extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' (NKJV)

Paul's point in this passage (Rom. 14:5-6) is that no particular days of the week had been sanctioned by God for fasting. Those who chose to fast regularly on days such as Monday and Thursday (or Wednesday and Friday) would be accepted if they did it to honor God. Likewise, those who didn't view any particular day as mandatory for fasting would be accepted if they ate in the proper spirit and gave thanks to God.

Paul goes on in the rest of chapter 14 to urge the believers in Rome not to judge one another and not to cause their brethren to stumble in these matters. Paul succinctly sums up both problems in the final verse of chapter 14:

ROMANS 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. (NKJV)

From our examination of the Scriptures, it is clear that God did not nullify Leviticus 11 or Deuteronomy 14 in Mark 7, Acts 10, and Romans 14. But there is one other Scripture that appears to show that any animal may now be eaten by believers:

I TIMOTHY 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is SANCTIFIED [hagiazetai] by the word of God and prayer. (NKJV)

This passage by Paul appears very plainly to show that every creature on earth is now edible. However, one very important limiting factor is usually overlooked by those who use this passage to teach that doctrine.

Paul tells us that "every creature of God is good," and is not "to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving" (I Tim. 4:4). But he qualifies that statement in verse 5 by saying that these creatures are "sanctified by the word of God" (I Tim. 4:5).

The Greek word translated "sanctified" in verse 5 is hagiazetai; it literally means "set apart." What creatures of God have been "set apart" by the word of God for use as food? Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 conclusively list those creatures of God which are to be eaten and the ones which are not to be eaten. Instead of contradicting the Torah's prohibition on eating unclean animals, Paul is actually supporting it in this Scripture.

Nowhere in the New Testament can it be found where all foods are conclusively declared clean and fit for human consumption. But is there a passage of Scripture that shows that this prohibition will remain in force past the time of Messiah's first coming? Yes, there is!

In the final chapter of the book of Isaiah, we find a prophecy which speaks of the return of Messiah to pour out God's anger, fury and wrath on those who rebel against Him. A description of some of the identifying activities of this group is revealing:

ISAIAH 66:15 For behold, the LORD will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, to go to the gardens after an idol in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together," says the LORD. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. (NKJV)

God does not change. The prohibition He placed on which animals His people can use for food still exists. As the prophecy from Isaiah 66 shows, those who do not acknowledge these commands will be among those God pours His anger out upon at the time of the Messiah's return. Don't be counted among this rebellious group destined for punishment.

 

[XTruth]

Do you see that it is works that justifies, and not faith alone? Sounds like a one on one debate time as far as works and salvation...OSAS.

Debate? To what end? You'll believe as you will and so will I.
I now know exactly where you are coming from.

No I don't think you do. Why do you say people of other religions do the gospel program too? I know and you know that their gods can't take away sin, the only reason anyone is worthy of hell. You don't understand sin. Therefore you can't possibly understand salvation as God has wanted you to...it really is simple. The whole truth was taught in the first 3 chapters of the Bible. Jesus takes away sin...no works of our own (Eph.2:8-9)...we are then justified (innocent, not guilty). It's up to each individual to remain justified by obeying all God's commands (Jas.2:21-24). If one transgresses God's laws, he is a sinner, not a saint...anytime you break a law, you become guilty...not justified and innocent any longer. The whole story is as simple as Adam and Eve's example. Abraham was confirmed to be justified in Gen.15:6. In Gen.22, he was told to sacrifice Isaac, this is the example being given in Jas.2:21-24 to show us Christians that continued obedience keeps us innocent and sin free. Gen.15 and Gen.22 have about 40 years in between them.

How do you ask me that it seems like I advocate a works salvation as if Jas.2:24 didn't exist...as if works wasn't spoken of by Jesus in Rev.2-3, of which He had told many Christians to repent or else He would personally fight against them (Rev.2:16)? Why do you simply say that you now know where I am coming from as if I were in some cult? You haven't understood that eternal salvation is only a hope to those who have initial salvation. Salvation from God's wrath is only for those who are cleared from all sin. If one sins again, then they are guilty and are in danger of the judgment. Do you believe that future sins are automatically forgiven w/o future repentance?

 

[Rick W]

Condemned again? No. Condemned already as always. The flesh and the spirit are condemned by the sinful nature and disbelief in the promise of God. Salvation is the saving of the spirit. The flesh is still condemned, always will be and not again.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Yes, I know. Does this mean I can sin as much as I want?
Of course not. For by the spirit I know what sin is. Therein lies the struggle, the warring against the flesh, within every Christian whereas before there was no struggle except satisfying the flesh. It's not an easy believism as some accuse.
Will we stumble? Will we sin? Yes. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? "
The flesh is buried. The body is sown corruptible, the spirit raised incorruptible unto eternal life.
My body is the same, condemned from the beginning, not again. The spirit is changed in nature, from what it was to the nature of Christ. And it is the spirit that is judged for the body is dead already.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Can I lose the spirit of Christ? Can I lose his nature?

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mark 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mark 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Do you know where your seed has fallen?

I do and I assure you as the sun will rise in the morning that I could never go back as I once was over 10 years ago standing alone on a back porch in Clinton, Utah on August 21, 1998.

 

[XTruth]

Condemned again? No. Condemned already as always. The flesh and the spirit are condemned by the sinful nature and disbelief in the promise of God. Salvation is the saving of the spirit. The flesh is still condemned, always will be and not again.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Yes, I know. Does this mean I can sin as much as I want?
Of course not. For by the spirit I know what sin is. Therein lies the struggle, the warring against the flesh, within every Christian whereas before there was no struggle except satisfying the flesh. It's not an easy believism as some accuse.
Will we stumble? Will we sin? Yes. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? "
The flesh is buried. The body is sown corruptible, the spirit raised incorruptible unto eternal life.
My body is the same, condemned from the beginning, not again. The spirit is changed in nature, from what it was to the nature of Christ. And it is the spirit that is judged for the body is dead already.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Can I lose the spirit of Christ? Can I lose his nature?

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mark 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mark 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Do you know where your seed has fallen?

I do and I assure you as the sun will rise in the morning that I could never go back as I once was over 10 years ago standing alone on a back porch in Clinton, Utah on August 21, 1998.

Romans 7:7-24
This chapter has taught many misplaced conclusions and false doctrines. They use it to prove that it is impossible for man to live free from sin, even though both testaments teach the righteous to live free from sin, lest you die (Gen.2:17; Ex.20:20; 32:33; Eze.3:18-21; 18:4, 20-24; 33:12-13; Jn.5:14; 8:11, 51; 1 Cor.15:34; 1 Jn.3:4, 9; 5:18; etc.). If this chapter meant Paul still continued in sin, though he was still saved, then it is only the contradiction of all the words in the whole Bible. Paul wasn’t constantly warning Christians to live free from sin to avoid the fall and the nullification of an inheritance in the kingdom of God by the damning their soul (Rom.1:19 – 2:3; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal.5:19-21; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-6), while he himself was still walking in the flesh.
The following is proof that the experience Paul wrote about in Romans 7 was not his present experience while writing Romans; it was before he came to Christ, and while he still lived under the Law of Moses. Romans 8 begins with ‘therefore,’ so the writings in Romans 8 conclude the sum of what he had just said in chapter 7. Many have either used his words to either prove Paul was not saved from sin, or that it’s okay if you still sin, because you’ll still be saved like Paul. Both are wrong for several reasons.
He had no condemnation (8:1); was free from the law of sin (8:2); was free from eternal death (8:2); sin was condemned in his flesh (8:3); he fulfilled righteousness (8:4); he had life and peace (8:6); he was Spirit-filled (8:9-11); his body was dead to sin (8:10); his flesh was crucified (8:12-13); and he was walking after the Spirit and not the flesh (8:1-4; Gal.5:16-26). Paul merely did what many righteous people have done; he gave his testimony as an example. He was not in sin when he wrote Romans 7; he was in Christ (Jn.8:31-34, 51). He proves both before and after this that there is complete victory over the law of sin for an obedient Christian (Rom.1:16-18; 2:8-11; 3:5-8, 24-31; 4:1-24; 5:1-11; 6:1-23; 8:1-13).

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
After Paul gave his testimony of how he was bound in sin under the law (7:6-24), he now gives the reason for divine deliverance from both the Law of Moses and sin. Remember that passages of scripture are always in view of the previous scriptures when beginning with the word ‘therefore.’ The reason there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ is that the past sins have been completely washed away into the sea of forgetfulness (Mic.7:19). The righteous saints of the Old Testament only had their sins hidden, not annihilated. They were still separated from living with God until Jesus went to the center of the earth where Abraham’s bosom was (Lk.16:19-31) and set the captives free. But we must come to the biblical understanding of what it means to be ‘in Christ.’
Not everyone who professes Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is ‘in Christ.’ It’s true that Jesus takes away your sins when you first come to Him. So by coming to Jesus to repent from your sins, you have become righteous because He is the Lord of our righteousness and eternal life (Jer.23:6; 1 Jn.5:20). Not everyone who has called upon the name of the Lord will be eternally saved (Mat.7:21-23; Lk.13:24-27). To be ‘in Christ’ means to be sinless, because no one can say they abide in Him if they don’t walk as He walked (1 Jn.2:6; 3:5).
To be ‘in Christ’ means to possess the blessings of eternal life (2 Tim.2:1), salvation (2 Tim.2:10), grace (2 Tim.2:1), preservation (Jude 1), righteousness (1 Cor.1:30), sanctification (1 Cor.1:2, 30), all spiritual blessings (Eph.1:3), and an eternal purpose (Eph.3:11). And like you learned from the previous paragraph, none of these are eternally manifested if one has sin on their account when they die, even if they profess Christ (Rom.6:23; Rev.22:11). All these things are only a hope that those in Christ possess, but aren’t guaranteed unless they obey the gospel program until they physically die or become Rapture saints (Rom.8:24-25; Tit.1:2; Heb.3:6; 5:9).
There are two laws listed in verse 2. The natural thought of Christians is to think of the Law of Moses when reading the Bible and coming across the word ‘law.’ As a result, they quickly dismiss the context of the verse completely by thinking it doesn’t apply to them because we aren’t under the law anymore. That is partially true. The truth is that the Law of Moses has been abolished (2 Cor.3:6-15; Eph.2:15; Col.2:14-17), but the Gentiles (every breed and race of people other than the Jews) were never under the law. That’s not to say there is no more law at all that governs this majestic universe; there are many. Romans list eight different laws alone.
The two laws in verse 2 are the law of sin and the law of the Spirit of life, that is, the Holy Spirit that works through the redemption of Christ to make free from, and to cancel the law of sin and death in all who are in Christ. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting (Gal.6:7-8).†That was the law of sowing and reaping. Romans 9:31 tells of the law of righteousness. There are laws we must obey if we wish to remain justified until the end. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (Jas.2:24).â€Â
The law spoken of in verse 3 is the Law of Moses. This law was weak, in that it was powerless to control the flesh, for sin already had control of it before the law came (Gal.3:19; Rom.5:20). Sin would not permit the flesh to obey the law. “Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin (Jn.8:34).†“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness (Rom.6:16)?â€Â
The Mosaic Law could not justify (Acts 13:38-39; Gal.2:16), free from sin, death, or condemnation (Rom.8:1-4), redeem (Rom.3:24-31; Gal.3:13-14), give inheritance (Rom.4:13-14), bring righteousness (Rom.8:4), free from the curse (Gal.3:10-14), control man in sin (Rom.7:7-23; 8:2, 7), make perfect (Mat.5:48; Heb.7:19), or enable a man to obey (Heb.7:18). But the good news is there is a new law in town; the law of Christ that sympathizes with fallen man (Jn.13:34; 15:12; Gal.6:1-2), shows love and mercy to all who come to be in Christ, as Jesus was in His Father, as obedient unto death. “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid (Rom.6:15).â€Â
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Rom.6:1-2)?†We are only in Christ if we don’t walk after the flesh any longer, but instead walk after the Spirit (vs.1; Gal.6:7-8). “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit (Rom.8:5).†All these words are to saved people; they apply to all Christians. If one turns to Christ for salvation, then they have turned from sin and death. We are saved because all our past sins have been forgiven (Rom.3:25), but if we turn to sin and death again, then we’ve turned from righteousness and life.
So, obey the Holy Spirit and walk after Him for life. The flesh only brings corruption. But what are the things of the flesh? “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal.5:19-21).â€Â

Romans 8:6-8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
There is no such thing as a carnal Christian! It’s a total oxymoron. The term ‘Christian’ was given to groups of people in the 1st Century that followed Christ. “He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (1 Jn.2:6).†Jesus followed the Spirit, not the flesh. He was without sin (2 Cor.5:21; 1 Pt.2:22; 1 Jn.3:5). We are to be imitators of Christ and walk as He walked. If we have it in our mind to be carnal, then our flesh will follow, which brings death, not life. Those who set there affections on the sins of the flesh (Mk.7:21-22; Rom.1:29-32; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Col.3:5-6; Eph.5:3-7; Rev.21:8), will naturally fulfill them (Jas.1:13-15). Those who set their affections on the things of the Spirit (1 Cor.12:4-11; Gal.5:22-23; Col.3:12-14), will naturally fulfill them, thus not sin and remain in Christ. No one who has been declared an enemy of God could possibly expect to enter heaven as a child of God (vs.7; Jas.4:4; 1 Jn.3:10). There is no such thing as a carnal Christian!

Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
If it is that the Spirit of God dwell in you (vs.9), and if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin (vs.10), and if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you (vs.11), THEN you owe the flesh nothing. Then it has no more control of your live, because the death penalty has been canceled. But if you commit again, the sins of the flesh, then you are guilty again and spiritually dead. If you die without further sincere repentance of honestly turning from that sin, then you will reap eternal death in hell. This is what God meant when He told Adam and Eve they would die if they ate the fruit (Gen.2:17). That they continued to live physically is not the first act of mercy as some teach. The wages of sin throughout both testaments is always spiritual death. “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die (Eze.18:4).†The spirit is what is born again (Jn.3:3-7), which can obviously be done more than once, since that’s what ‘again’ means.


THE SOWER...YOU USED TO PROVE YOU CANNOT LOSE SALVATION???
Matthew 13:3-8
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
This is the parable of the sower sowing seed. This is one of the most well known parables taught in church, yet the meaning has escaped us. It’s not even a difficult parable to for man to interpret, despite all our doctrinal biases. But just incase, Jesus went on to explain it in verses 18-23. That’s how important it’s meaning is. Jesus placed so much worth in this parable that he implied all other parable interpretations will be rooted from this one (Mk.13:4).
This parable presents an illustration of the age of grace we now are living in. Presented here are four separate kinds of hearts that the Word of God lands on and the results that follow. The sower is Jesus. The seed is His gospel. The earth the seed lands on are the four types of hearts the Word will land on. The believers of eternal security will be shocked to learn that this parable shows a 75% rate of people receiving Jesus, but only a 25% rate of people who will go on to inherit eternal life.
The first kind of heart is compared to the wayside, which is a hard walking path. No seed thrown on a hard path will sprout roots and grow. The hardness of the path represents the hardness of the heart, which is also represented to express a person’s willingness to receive the Truth. So what happens to that seed? Verse 4 says birds eat them up so there are no more. Verse 19 explains the birds as Satan and his minions. They devour all the seed sown on that heart just in case there were a soft area and the seed took root to give life. This person represents a person who never has been saved.
The second heart is compared to a stony place where there is enough dirt to give life to the seed, but not for long. Verse 5 says the Word of God was received immediately and quickly had growth. This is the kind of convert who usually has made their choice to live for Christ at a crusade or camp meeting, but never sticks with this new life for long. Verses 20-21 confirm this by saying they did receive the Word of God quickly, or at that moment.
They did endure for a while, but the sun came up and scorched them. The sun represents tribulations and persecutions Christians must endure in order to survive (Mat.10:22). These people represent backsliders who left the faith due to tribulation (Acts 14:22) and persecution (2 Tim.3:12), which we must go through to enter the kingdom of God. If you can’t endure with patience (Rom.5:3) and you ever take the seemingly easy way out, then you aren’t saved anymore. Though you did receive the Truth once with joy. No unsaved man receives the Word of God and lets it take root in his heart, and remains unsaved. The last thing we hear about this type of person is that he was offended. That’s the Greek word ‘skandalizo,’ which means to be tripped up, enticed to sin, or apostasy. In the Bible, saved men are never once referred to by these words. He was saved and then was not.
The third heart where the Word of God is sown is compared to the ground where thorns grow. Verse 7 says the thorns grew up around this plant and choked it. Thorns don’t choke seeds, only seeds that have taken root and grown into plants. These people were saved. This is confirmed by verse 22, which says they heard the Word and received it. Their salvation is further confirmed by the result the choking thorns had on the plant. It became fruitless. This either means he had been producing fruit, or he hadn’t had the chance to yet. Makes no difference. Either way, he was a plant that took on life from receiving the gospel. If you become fruitless, God rejects you and cast you to hell (Jn.15:1-6). This man was saved, and then was damned by becoming barren.
The last seed was thrown on good soil. They heard and received the Word. The life giving seed of the Word of God produced life and produced fruit. Bearing fruit is the only way to maintain life in Christ. Many people come to Christ, but most fall away. The seed gives life and all who accept it will be free from the penalty of death as long as they abide in good ground and endure. You will automatically do this, if you obey the words of life (Jn.15:10).
Psalms 51:13 says, “Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.†Conversion is when you walk in a new direction. You put off the old man of sin and walk in the righteousness of God. James 5:19-20 says, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.†This verse is talking to the church, which are saved men. Is it possible to be converted more than once? This verse says, yes. Does a saved man need to be converted? No. If one of us walks a direction that is away from God, then we’re in sin, condemned again, and need to be converted again.
“Bride of Heaven, Pride of Hell,†a book by Ray Comfort, has jaw dropping, eye watering statistics that parallel this parable. He wrote that book in 1985, a four-day crusade obtained 217 decisions for conversion in Christ. According to a follow up on these converts from one of the members of the organizing committee, 92% fell away (page 60).
In 1970, a number of churches combined for a convention in Fort Worth, TX and secured 30,000 decisions for Christ. Six months later, the follow up committee could only find 30 going on in their faith (page 62). In 1996, a leading U.S. denomination published that during 1995 they secured 384,057 decisions for Christ, but retained only 22,983 in fellowship. They couldn’t account for 361,074 conversions. That’s a 94% fall away rate (page 62-63). These are people who believe Jesus is God and the all and all. The eternal security doctrine would have to stand firm that all these people will still go to heaven based on their moment of clarity. Nowhere in the Bible does it support this belief, though I am in no way doubting that all those people had enough saving grace faith in Christ to be saved from all their past sins at one point in time.

Matthew 13:20-21
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. This illustrates those who hear the Word and gladly receive it, like those at an altar call. But they have no strength of dedication, no root to endure, no stability to stand persecution, trial, temptation, and misunderstanding, which are sure to come. This is an obvious example of backsliding. Even the holders of the doctrine of eternal security will agree with me that all it takes to receive the saving grace required to be born again is to hear the Word and receive it. But like with all Scripture, we have another plain condition set before us for holding on to this saving grace. If we are offended by the Word, such as someone showing you hundreds of clear-cut verses saying you can lose your salvation when that isn’t the gospel you want to hear or receive, then you will lose your salvation. Many disciples were also offended by the Word and walked no more with Jesus (Jn.6:60-66). Just because you received Christ at some point in your life, doesn’t mean He’s still walking with you. The only reason for that is because you stopped walking with Him in His ways. No backslider has spiritual life leading to eternal life in them (Jn.15:1-6; Rom.8:12-13; Gal.1:6-8; 5:4, 19-21; 6:7-8; 2 Cor.11:3-4; 1 Thes.3:8; 1 Tim.5:11-15; 2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:6, 12-14; 6:4-12; 10:26-29; 12:15; Jas.5:19-20; 2 Pt.2:20-22; 1 Jn.3:8-10; Rev.3:5; 22:18-19).