What Commandments are in force FOREVER?

[Rick W]

It really takes a bit of wrenching to get around the word "whatsoever" doesn't it?

"whatsoever entereth in at the mouth"

So was Jesus saying the ingesting of drugs was OK? If not why not? Of course it helps to examine the whole chapter in context.

If I'm buzzed on something my witness suffers. Some say, "Do it at home away from everybody." But it's been my experience that things happen when one leasts expects it... a family emergency, someone drops by unexpectedly, anything. I'm told to be ever watchful, to keep my wick trimmed. How can I be watchful if I can't think properly to speak of the Word of God?
And I'm sure there's something in scripture about drunkenness anyway.

Christ said "whatsoever". Nobody can change that. Christ put no condition on that statement. Why should anyone else?
"Hath God said..." I've heard before.

 

[Eccl12and13]

I've answered your few questions but you don't accept it. Nothing I can do there.
I've already told you how "David" was used by the prophets but you don't want to consider it much less believe it.
If you prefer to believe David will be your King and Shepard then again, I can't make you believe otherwise.

Rick:
There will be MANY rulers in Christs' kingdom. Don't believe me, trust the scriptures:

Rev.20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So yes, I know David will be there as a ruler, Jesus (12) disciples will be there as rulers, and as you just read above, those that were beheaded but did not worship the beast not received his mark will reign with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[Rick W]

It really takes a bit of wrenching to get around the word "whatsoever" doesn't it?

"whatsoever entereth in at the mouth"

So was Jesus saying the ingesting of drugs was OK? If not why not? Of course it helps to examine the whole chapter in context.

So your objection by using extreme examples gives you license to twist Christ's words into something more to your liking? You yourself have known that ploy to be used on these forums yet you now do the same thing?
"whatsoever" includes a food known as pork. Pork is not an extreme example. Pork can be bought in any market.

.... my body is no different than an Israelites, or no different than Noah's...

Your body isn't any different, that hasn't changed, but spiritually you are quite different from the ancient Israelites. The veil in the Holy of Holies is no longer intact. No longer is a priest required to intercede for the people.

My eating a ham sandwich doesn't make me unclean before the Lord. Partaking of bacon at a Men's Breakfast sponsored by the church doesn't make anyone unclean nor the church.
I remember some years ago I said I'd never be a member of any church and I don't like to cook. So what happened? I found myself in a church frying bacon at 8am.

 

[Rick W]

 

[Eccl12and13]

?????????????

 

[rstrats]

Rick,

re: “My eating a ham sandwich doesn't make me unclean before the Lord. Partaking of bacon at a Men's Breakfast sponsored by the church doesn't make anyone unclean nor the church.â€Â


Perhaps not, but it does make one disobedient.

 

[Rick W]

rstrats,
If that's how you feel then it's certainly your choice to abstain and it's not my place to judge you. If I were to invite you to dinner I would not serve ham out of respect for your belief.

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Romans 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Romans 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Romans 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Romans 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

 

[RND]

Rick, did Christ give His life so you could eat green eggs and ham?

Does Paul's statement in Romans 14:14 that "I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself" mean the early Church made no distinction between clean and unclean meats?

An understanding of Greek terminology can help us here.

It is important to realize that the New Testament writers referred to two concepts of unclean in the New Testament, with different Greek words used to convey those ideas. Unclean could refer to animals God did not intend to be used as food (Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14). Unclean could also refer to ceremonial uncleanness.

In Romans 14 Paul uses the word koinos, which means "common" (W.E. Vine, Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, "Unclean," p. 649). In addition to the meanings of "common" and "ordinary," as used in English (Acts 2:44; 4:32; Titus 1:4; Hebrews 10:29; Jude 3), the word also applied to things considered polluted or defiled. This word, along with its verb form koinoo, is used in Mark 7:2,15-23, where it obviously refers to ceremonial uncleanness in the incident when the disciples ate without having first washed their hands.

Through a concordance or similar Bible help you can verify that koinos and koinoo appear throughout the New Testament to refer to this kind of ceremonial uncleanness. Something could be "common"-ceremonially unclean-even though it was otherwise considered a clean meat.

An entirely different word, akathartos, is used in the New Testament for animals Scripture specifies as unclean. In the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament in wide use in Paul's day), akathartos is used to designate the unclean meats listed in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.

Both words, koinos and akathartos, are used in Acts 10 in describing Peter's vision of the sheet filled with "all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air" (verse 12), both clean and unclean. Peter himself distinguished between the two concepts of uncleanness by using both words in verse 14. After a voice told Peter to "kill and eat," he replied, "I have never eaten anything common (koinos) or unclean (akathartos)." Most Bible translations distinguish between the meanings of the two words used here. Peter used the same terminology in verse 28 and Acts 11:8 in discussing this vision.

When Paul said in Romans 14:14 that "I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean (koinos, or 'common)' of itself," he was making the same point he had made earlier to the Corinthians: Just because meat that was otherwise lawful to eat may have been associated with idol worship does not mean it is no longer fit for human consumption. As seen from the context, Paul wasn't discussing biblical dietary restrictions at all.

Paul goes on to state in Romans 14:20 that "all food is clean" (New International Version). The word translated "clean" is katharos, "free from impure admixture, without blemish, spotless" (Vine, "Clean, Cleanness, Cleanse, Cleansing," p. 103). Clean meats as such aren't addressed in the New Testament, so there isn't a specific word to describe them. Katharos is used to describe all kinds of cleanliness and purity, including clean dishes (Matthew 23:26), people (John 13:10) and clothing (Revelation 15:6; 19:8,14), "pure" religion (James 1:27), gold and glass (Revelation 21:18).

Realize also that, in both verses 14 and 20 of Romans 14, the word food or meat isn't in the original wording. No specific object is mentioned relative to cleanness or uncleanness. The sense of these verses is merely that "nothing (is) unclean (koinos: common or ceremonially defiled) of itself," and "all is clean (katharos: free from impure admixture, without blemish, spotless)."

Paul's point is that any association of food with idolatrous activity had no bearing on whether the food was suitable for eating.

www.ucgstp.org/lit/booklets/clean/understanding.html

 

[Rick W]

Rick, did Christ give His life so you could eat green eggs and ham?

He died to free me from the Law.
And again, I won't judge you if you prefer to abstain from eating certain foods.

 

[Rick W]

We will be presented to the Lord as clean, dressed in white, without spot or blemish. That's what Christ did on the cross. We are clean. Whatsoever entereth in at the mouth does not make us unclean. And that's the whole gist of the matter since I did not enter into the Old Covanent with God but the new one ratified by the blood of Christ shed on the cross.
Christ freed me from the Law, all of it. Not this part or that part but the entire whole through agreement within another Covenant. How much more glory is bestowed upon Christ if He frees me from all the law rather than just some of it? I've also heard Christ died for our sins ... but not all of them. Now I'm hearing Christ died to free us from the law... but not all of it.

 

[XTruth]

Rick, did Christ give His life so you could eat green eggs and ham?

He died to free me from the Law.
And again, I won't judge you if you prefer to abstain from eating certain foods.

Christ died to free all from the penalty of their past sins, which gave the spiritual death penalty to the unrepented person that leads to eternal death if one physically dies in the condition of spiritual death...there are 3 deaths and lifes referred to in Scripture, just as there are many laws referred to. Not all mentions of the law in the New Testament are references to the Mosaic Law only given to Israel from around 1500 years in the last part of the Old Testament and only a little more than 3 years in the New.

So if you were born in the late 70's of the 20th Century, and are not a Jew anyway, then is it the Mosaic Law that Christ freed you from or the penalty of your past sins that damned your soul?

The Mosaic Law has been abolished, but 9 of the commandments have been re-established in the New Testament. The Sabbath was left out. There are actually 1,050 commands in the New Testament. But know the following list of sins, because NO ONE WHO DOES THEM WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD (Mat.15:18-20; Rom.1:29-32; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-10; Rev.21:8). In short, the commandments you are to keep is to merely conform your life completely to the gospel program and sin no more (Mat.5:48; Jn.5:14; 1 Jn.3:1-10), because once you sin, the spiritual death penalt has come back upon your soul (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; Eze.18:4, 20-24; Jn.8:34, 44, 51; Rom.6 (the whole chapter); Jas.1:13-15; 1 Jn.3:4).

 

[Rick W]

because once you sin, the spiritual death penalt has come back upon your soul

I've also heard Christ died for our sins ... but not all of them.

Christ paid the price, once. He died once, He was buried once and He rose again once. He won't do it again.

 

[francisdesales]

The Mosaic Law has been abolished, but 9 of the commandments have been re-established in the New Testament. The Sabbath was left out. There are actually 1,050 commands in the New Testament. But know the following list of sins, because NO ONE WHO DOES THEM WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD (Mat.15:18-20; Rom.1:29-32; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-10; Rev.21:8). In short, the commandments you are to keep is to merely conform your life completely to the gospel program and sin no more (Mat.5:48; Jn.5:14; 1 Jn.3:1-10), because once you sin, the spiritual death penalt has come back upon your soul (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; Eze.18:4, 20-24; Jn.8:34, 44, 51; Rom.6 (the whole chapter); Jas.1:13-15; 1 Jn.3:4).

I agree. Christ came to fulfill the Law, the deeper meaning of the written Mosaic Law. Matthew 5 shows Christ as a New Lawgiver ("You have heard it said...but I tell you this"), giving a spiritual commentary on how one who is Blessed should act. Not even have thoughts of adultery in the mind. Not even call our brother names. This goes way beyond the Old Law - and Christ fulfills the intent God had by giving the Decalogue. Christ said the Prophets and the Law is fulfilled by loving God and neighbor.

And if I can continue to expound on what you have said, disobedience to the Law of Love, the "royal law", indicates a person is not abiding in Christ. One who does not have Christ does not have Life - and a lifeless person is dead. Spiritually. Christ did not come to allow us to sin at will, (as some imply when they say Christ paid the price and we don't have to now) but to free us from the POWER of sin. It's slavery and separation from God, happiness and meaning in life.

If Christ "paid the price" for all sin, hell would be empty, since the wages of sin is death - eternally without God... Jesus Himself said the road to salvation is narrow and difficult, so we can presume that hell is occupied. He is our representative, the New Adam. He didn't give us the freedom to sin and not be punished.

Regards

 

[XTruth]

because once you sin, the spiritual death penalt has come back upon your soul

I've also heard Christ died for our sins ... but not all of them.

Christ paid the price, once. He died once, He was buried once and He rose again once. He won't do it again.

Francisdesales had a great post after yours.

Rick, Christ did die for all our sins.
All past sins are forgiven (Rom.3:25)...all future sins have been atoned for, so that there is no more need for the shedding of blood (Heb.10:10-18; 1 Jn.2:1-2), but repentance is always required for future sins to be forgiven (Lk.13:1-5; 1 Jn.1:6, 9). Grace does do a lot, but there are things that grace never claimed to do.

GRACE CANNOT:
1) Set aside forever all condemnation for future sins (Jn.5:14; 8:34; Rom.6:1-23; 8:12-13; Gal.5:21; 2 Cor.5:10).
2) Set aside failure of saved men to meet the many conditions of salvation (1 Jn.1:7; Rom.6:1-23; 8:1-13; Jas.5:19-20; Gal.5:19-21; Col.1:23; 2:6-7).
3) Cancel free moral agency (Col.1:23; 1 Jn.1:7; Rom.6:16-23; Rev.22:17).
4) Keep men saved when they sin (Rom.8:12-13; 1 Cor.6:9-11; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Jas.5:19-20; Heb.6:4-6; 10:26-29; 2 Pt.2:20-21).
5) Cancel the death penalty when saved men break the law (Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; Heb.10:26-29; Jas.5:19-20; Eze.18:4, 20-24; 33:12-13, 18).
6) Make God a liar who said every man that sins must die (Eze.18:4; Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Rev.21:8).
7) Cancel the law of confession of sins before they are forgiven (1 Jn.1:7, 9; Rev.2:5, 16; 3:19; Lk.13:1-5; Acts 2:38).
8) Forgive future sins, for transgression and confession are necessary before forgiveness (1 Jn.1:9; Rev.2:5, 16, 22; 3:19; Lk.13:1-5; Acts 2:38; Mk.6:12; Rom.2:4-6; 2 Cor.7:10).
9) Cancel the responsibility of saved men concerning sin (Rom.14:10; 2 Cor.5:10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Rom.14:12).
10) Be responsible if saved men backslide (1 Tim.2:4; 2 Pt.3:9; Rev.2:5; 3:2; Jas.5:19-20; Gal.5:19-21).
11) Free saved men from condemnation for future sins unless confessed (1 Jn.1:7, 9; Rev.2:5, 22; 3:2; Jas.5:19-20).
12) Permit God to forgive unconfessed sin (2 Chr.7:14; 2 Cor.7:9-10; 1 Jn.1:9; 2 Tim.2:25; Rev.2:5; 3:2).
13) Bind men so that they cannot sin if they choose to do so (Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; 1 Jn.1:7; Heb.6:4-9; 10:26-29).
14) Guarantee any man eternal life if he refuses to obey (Jas.5:19-20; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:19-20; 9:27; Eze.33:12-20).
15) Force obedience (Rev.22:17; Jn.3:16-20; Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal.1:6-8; 1 Jn.1:7).
16) Make any man a child of God in the sense that Jesus was (Jn.1:14, 18; 3:16).
17) Force God to continue blessing any man who sins (Eze.18:4; Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal.5:19-21; Jas.5:19-20).
18) Make the sins of the saved different than the sins of the unsaved (Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; 1 Cor.6:9-11; Gal.5:19-21; Col.1:5-10; 2 Pet.2:20-22).
19) Condemn sinners and excuse saints who commit the same sins (Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; 14:10-12; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Eze.18:4, 24-28; 33:12-16; Rev.2:5, 16, 22; 3:2).
20) Operate in the life of a free moral agent without his consent (Jn.3:16-20; 7:17; 8:34, 2 Pt.3:9; Rev.22:17).
21) Impart eternal life to men who serve sin and Satan (Mat.6:24; Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; 1 Jn.3:8).
22) Keep men from moral falls if they willfully sin (Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; Heb.6:4-9; 10:26-29; Eze.33:12-20).
23) Force God to go contrary to His own program of grace (Rom.1:16; 1 Jn.1:7; Heb.3:6, 12-14; 10:26-29).
24) Cancel the law of sowing and reaping (Gal.6:7-8; Rom.6:16-23, 8:12-13, Eze.18:4, 24-28; 33:12-16; Rev.2:5-22).
25) Guarantee unconditional favor to anyone (2 Cor.6:1; Gal.1:6-8; 2:22; 5:4; Heb.12:15; Jas.5:19-20).
26) Guarantee unforfeitable eternal life without conditions being met (Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; Gal.5:16-26; 6:7-8; Jas.5:19-20; Heb.10:26-29).
27) Guarantee sinlessness to men unless conditions are met (1 Cor.3:16-17; Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; Gal.5:16-26; 6:7-8; Heb.6:1-9; 10:26-29; 12:14-15).
28) Encourage anarchy in God's government (Gen.2:17; Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8).
29) Force God to be lenient to rebels (Eze.18:4; Rom.6:23; 8:12-13; Gal.6:7-8).
30) Give any man a pardon that guarantees him salvation and eternal life regardless of how he lives in sin and rebellion (Ex.32:32-33; Eze.18:4; 33:10-20; Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8).

GRACE CAN:

1) Save the world (Gen.6:8; Eph.2:8-9).
2) Give one all good things (Ps.84:11).
3) Bring men to repentance (Zech.12:10).
4) Impart great blessings (Acts 4:33).
5) Bring salvation (Tit.2:11-12; Eph.2).
6) Impart faith (Acts 18:27).
7) Justify (Rom.3:24-25; Tit.3:7).
8) Overcome sin (Rom.5:20).
9) Reign in life if permitted (Rom.5:21).
10) Make one God’s elect (Rom.11:5-6).
11) Give boldness (Rom.15:15).
12) Make partaker of Christ (1 Cor.10:30).
13) Give power (1 Cor.15:10).
14) Inspire liberality (2 Cor.8:1-2, 6-9; 9:8).
15) Give endurance (2 Cor.12:9).
16) Call to the ministry (Gal.1:15).
17) Impart riches (Eph.2:7).
18) Inspire singing (Col.3:16).
19) Give seasoning to speech (Col.4:6).
20) Give strength (2 Tim.2:1).
21) Teach (Tit.2:11-12).
22) Give aid in suffering (Heb.2:9).
23) Help in time of need (Heb.4:16).
24) Give stability (Heb.13:9).
25) Give life (1 Pt.3:7).
26) Help give true service (Heb.12:28).
27) Become abundant (1 Tim.1:14).
28) Bring hope (2 Thes.2:16).
29) Give ability to preach (Eph.3:8).
30) Change lives (1 Cor.15:10).

 

[Rick W]

Xtruth,
From the site you're copying/pasting from...

There is no Salvation apart from Biblical Repentance that is manifested by a change of direction, attitudes and lifestyle, and that is in agreement with the Holiness moral of God’s eternal truth, His Word.

If I do the above, that is come to "a change of direction, attitudes and lifestyle, and that is in agreement with the Holiness moral of God’s eternal truth, His Word." then is God obligated to save me or is this a sign I have been saved?
There is a difference. In the former I work to become worthy by what I do but in the latter it is Christ in me that does these things and not of myself.

 

[XTruth]

Xtruth,
From the site you're copying/pasting from...

There is no Salvation apart from Biblical Repentance that is manifested by a change of direction, attitudes and lifestyle, and that is in agreement with the Holiness moral of God’s eternal truth, His Word.

If I do the above, that is come to "a change of direction, attitudes and lifestyle, and that is in agreement with the Holiness moral of God’s eternal truth, His Word." then is God obligated to save me or is this a sign I have been saved?
There is a difference. In the former I work to become worthy by what I do but in the latter it is Christ in me that does these things and not of myself.

I'm not sure why you think I copied and pasted from a site... I have only copy and pasted from the book I wrote, which is on file on my computer. I do hope that is not against this forums rules to quote something I have previously written.

God is obligated to save anyone who repents and turns from sin in order to wilfully walk in obedience to the gospel program. Free will was not exchanged for salvation. God is also obligated to allow one to be condemned that turns from Him in order to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Eze.3:18-21; 18:4, 20-24; 33:12-13; Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Jas.4:4; etc.). You haven't bothered looking up the reference verses I just gave... you've had no time in between my two posts, yet you respond with an argument. I'm not coming at you with human philosophy of my own opinion. I use the Word of God with many references to back up the claims I know you haven't understood. Let those answer your argument, not me.

Don't you understand that being saved is no works (Eph.2:8-9), but that salvation is not eternal, eternal salvation is what we hope for (Rom.8:24-25; 13:11; 1 Tim.1:1; Tit.1:1-2; Heb.3:6; etc.). Once you accept Christ to wash away all your past sins (Rom.3:25), it is a matter of works plus faith to keep you saved (Jas.2:24). Jesus speaks of these works in the 7 epistles to the church (Rev.2-3). To remain obedient to God's Word takes work. We labor for eternal life (Jn.6:27) by not sinning, b/c sin is what God must judge without respect of person (1 Pt.1:17). Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Phil.2:12)...why fear God? The only reason is because of His judgment (Lk.12:4-5). What does He judge? It is only sin, which cannot be judged with respect of persons (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25). Therefore, there is no work we can do to get rid of the penalty from our past sins (Eph.2:8-9), but it does take work to keep ourselves from future condemnation. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone?

The following are the works of keeping salvation and the conditions of eternal life. Salvation isn’t kept and manifested as eternal unless you labor for it (Jn.6:27). We must also: come to Christ (Jn.6:37, 44, 45, 65); eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn.6:50-51, 53, 58); reap (Jn.4:35-38); hate (love less) the life in this world (Jn.12:25); know God and Christ (Jn.17:2-3); enter right gate (Mat.7:13-14); cause no offense (Mat. 18:8-9); keep commandments (Mat.19:17; Jn.8:31, 51); forsake all (Mat.19:27-29; Mk.10:28-30; Lk.18:28-30); live free from sin (Rom.5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Tit.2:11-14); continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom.2:7); sow to the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8); fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim.6:12, 19); be sober and hope to the end for it (Tit.1:2; 3:7; 1 Pt.1:5, 9, 13; Rom.8:24); endure temptations (Jas.1:12); let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn.2:24-25; 5:11-20); love everybody (1 Jn.3:14-15); keep yourself in the love of God, looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24); overcome sin (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21); be faithful unto death (Rev.2:10; Heb.12:14-15); believe and obey the gospel (Jn.3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40; 47, 54; 2 Cor.5:17; Rom.1:5); and be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn.3; 10:27-29).

 

[Rick W]

Xtruth,
When Christ says if you love me you will do my commandments he's not saying do my commandments and I will love you and save you. It's my belief that because I love Christ it's by His nature, not mine, that the good works I do are done. We deny ourselves, we become less that He may become more. When saved it's His nature, replacing ours, that produces a new creature. Apart from Christ I can do nothing. He in the Father, He in us, we in the Father. In heaven it is by His nature that we exist forever unto eternal life for by His nature there is no sin.
I just don't believe works saves us or obligates God to fulfill His promise. Besides, Christ said nobody comes to Him unless the Father draws him and many chose to follow Him no longer. I don't want to get into the debate of freewill or no freewill but I think there is still contention between the carnal and the spiritual. The things I would do I do not but the things I would not these I do as spoken by Paul demonstrates this. And he goes further to give all the glory of victory to Jesus Christ our Lord.

I'm not sure why you think I copied and pasted from a site... I have only copy and pasted from the book I wrote, which is on file on my computer. I do hope that is not against this forums rules to quote something I have previously written.

9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material.

We don't really push that one unless there are circumstances where we must.


But if you wrote that then you need to contact thenetgathering.org unless of course you already know about it.

http://www.thenetgathering.org
http://www.thenetgathering.org/Teaching ... 0Grace.pdf

 

[XTruth]

Xtruth,
When Christ says if you love me you will do my commandments he's not saying do my commandments and I will love you and save you. It's my belief that because I love Christ it's by His nature, not mine, that the good works I do are done. We deny ourselves, we become less that He may become more. When saved it's His nature, replacing ours, that produces a new creature. Apart from Christ I can do nothing. He in the Father, He in us, we in the Father. In heaven it is by His nature that we exist forever unto eternal life for by His nature there is no sin.
I just don't believe works saves us or obligates God to fulfill His promise. Besides, Christ said nobody comes to Him unless the Father draws him and many chose to follow Him no longer. I don't want to get into the debate of freewill or no freewill but I think there is still contention between the carnal and the spiritual. The things I would do I do not but the things I would not these I do as spoken by Paul demonstrates this. And he goes further to give all the glory of victory to Jesus Christ our Lord.

I'm not sure why you think I copied and pasted from a site... I have only copy and pasted from the book I wrote, which is on file on my computer. I do hope that is not against this forums rules to quote something I have previously written.

9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material.

We don't really push that one unless there are circumstances where we must.


But if you wrote that then you need to contact thenetgathering.org unless of course you already know about it.

http://www.thenetgathering.org
http://www.thenetgathering.org/Teaching ... 0Grace.pdf

Yes, I have written a book and post from it. I don't know what thenetgathering is or what it has to do with post I have written myself, but I will look it over. Thanks

There is only one thing I can respond to from your post, since I've already given you many reference verses proving you incorrect (no offense). You used reference from Romans 7 as if Paul were still sinning, yet could still be a saint. " 1 Jn.1:6 -If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." " Gal.6:7-8 -"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." .....I will post your misconception about Romans 7, though it is a little long and I know that is frowned upon. But how else can I give you the Biblical evidence?
Also, Jesus loves a person all the way to hell. His love is not exclusive to His salvation. He loves the saved and the lost (Rom.5:8). His standards of whether or not we love Him is determined by our obedience to His words, sayings, authority (Jn.8:31, 51; 14:15-23; 15:14; 1 Jn.2:3-6; 2:29; 3:7; 4:17; 5:1-18).

Romans 7:7-24
This chapter has taught many misplaced conclusions and false doctrines. They use it to prove that it is impossible for man to live free from sin, even though both testaments teach the righteous to live free from sin, lest you die (Gen.2:17; Ex.20:20; 32:33; Eze.3:18-21; 18:4, 20-24; 33:12-13; Jn.5:14; 8:11, 51; 1 Cor.15:34; 1 Jn.3:4, 9; 5:18; etc.). If this chapter meant Paul still continued in sin, though he was still saved, then it is only the contradiction of all the words in the whole Bible. Paul wasn’t constantly warning Christians to live free from sin to avoid the fall and the nullification of an inheritance in the kingdom of God by the damning their soul (Rom.1:19 – 2:3; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Gal.5:19-21; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10; Eph.5:3-7; Col.3:5-6), while he himself was still walking in the flesh.
The following is proof that the experience Paul wrote about in Romans 7 was not his present experience while writing Romans; it was before he came to Christ, and while he still lived under the Law of Moses. Romans 8 begins with ‘therefore,’ so the writings in Romans 8 conclude the sum of what he had just said in chapter 7. Many have either used his words to either prove Paul was not saved from sin, or that it’s okay if you still sin, because you’ll still be saved like Paul. Both are wrong for several reasons.
He had no condemnation (8:1); was free from the law of sin (8:2); was free from eternal death (8:2); sin was condemned in his flesh (8:3); he fulfilled righteousness (8:4); he had life and peace (8:6); he was Spirit-filled (8:9-11); his body was dead to sin (8:10); his flesh was crucified (8:12-13); and he was walking after the Spirit and not the flesh (8:1-4; Gal.5:16-26). Paul merely did what many righteous people have done; he gave his testimony as an example. He was not in sin when he wrote Romans 7; he was in Christ (Jn.8:31-34, 51). He proves both before and after this that there is complete victory over the law of sin for an obedient Christian (Rom.1:16-18; 2:8-11; 3:5-8, 24-31; 4:1-24; 5:1-11; 6:1-23; 8:1-13).

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.After Paul gave his testimony of how he was bound in sin under the law (7:6-24), he now gives the reason for divine deliverance from both the Law of Moses and sin. Remember that passages of scripture are always in view of the previous scriptures when beginning with the word ‘therefore.’ The reason there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ is that the past sins have been completely washed away into the sea of forgetfulness (Mic.7:19). The righteous saints of the Old Testament only had their sins hidden, not annihilated. They were still separated from living with God until Jesus went to the center of the earth where Abraham’s bosom was (Lk.16:19-31) and set the captives free. But we must come to the biblical understanding of what it means to be ‘in Christ.’
Not everyone who professes Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is ‘in Christ.’ It’s true that Jesus takes away your sins when you first come to Him. So by coming to Jesus to repent from your sins, you have become righteous because He is the Lord of our righteousness and eternal life (Jer.23:6; 1 Jn.5:20). Not everyone who has called upon the name of the Lord will be eternally saved (Mat.7:21-23; Lk.13:24-27). To be ‘in Christ’ means to be sinless, because no one can say they abide in Him if they don’t walk as He walked (1 Jn.2:6; 3:5).
To be ‘in Christ’ means to possess the blessings of eternal life (2 Tim.2:1), salvation (2 Tim.2:10), grace (2 Tim.2:1), preservation (Jude 1), righteousness (1 Cor.1:30), sanctification (1 Cor.1:2, 30), all spiritual blessings (Eph.1:3), and an eternal purpose (Eph.3:11). And like you learned from the previous paragraph, none of these are eternally manifested if one has sin on their account when they die, even if they profess Christ (Rom.6:23; Rev.22:11). All these things are only a hope that those in Christ possess, but aren’t guaranteed unless they obey the gospel program until they physically die or become Rapture saints (Rom.8:24-25; Tit.1:2; Heb.3:6; 5:9).
There are two laws listed in verse 2. The natural thought of Christians is to think of the Law of Moses when reading the Bible and coming across the word ‘law.’ As a result, they quickly dismiss the context of the verse completely by thinking it doesn’t apply to them because we aren’t under the law anymore. That is partially true. The truth is that the Law of Moses has been abolished (2 Cor.3:6-15; Eph.2:15; Col.2:14-17), but the Gentiles (every breed and race of people other than the Jews) were never under the law. That’s not to say there is no more law at all that governs this majestic universe; there are many. Romans list eight different laws alone.
The two laws in verse 2 are the law of sin and the law of the Spirit of life, that is, the Holy Spirit that works through the redemption of Christ to make free from, and to cancel the law of sin and death in all who are in Christ. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting (Gal.6:7-8).†That was the law of sowing and reaping. Romans 9:31 tells of the law of righteousness. There are laws we must obey if we wish to remain justified until the end. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only (Jas.2:24).â€Â
The law spoken of in verse 3 is the Law of Moses. This law was weak, in that it was powerless to control the flesh, for sin already had control of it before the law came (Gal.3:19; Rom.5:20). Sin would not permit the flesh to obey the law. “Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin (Jn.8:34).†“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness (Rom.6:16)?â€Â
The Mosaic Law could not justify (Acts 13:38-39; Gal.2:16), free from sin, death, or condemnation (Rom.8:1-4), redeem (Rom.3:24-31; Gal.3:13-14), give inheritance (Rom.4:13-14), bring righteousness (Rom.8:4), free from the curse (Gal.3:10-14), control man in sin (Rom.7:7-23; 8:2, 7), make perfect (Mat.5:48; Heb.7:19), or enable a man to obey (Heb.7:18). But the good news is there is a new law in town; the law of Christ that sympathizes with fallen man (Jn.13:34; 15:12; Gal.6:1-2), shows love and mercy to all who come to be in Christ, as Jesus was in His Father, as obedient unto death. “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid (Rom.6:15).â€Â
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Rom.6:1-2)?†We are only in Christ if we don’t walk after the flesh any longer, but instead walk after the Spirit (vs.1; Gal.6:7-8). “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit (Rom.8:5).†All these words are to saved people; they apply to all Christians. If one turns to Christ for salvation, then they have turned from sin and death. We are saved because all our past sins have been forgiven (Rom.3:25), but if we turn to sin and death again, then we’ve turned from righteousness and life.
So, obey the Holy Spirit and walk after Him for life. The flesh only brings corruption. But what are the things of the flesh? “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornicatio, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal.5:19-21).â€Â

 

[dadof10]

God is obligated to save anyone who repents and turns from sin in order to wilfully walk in obedience to the gospel program. Free will was not exchanged for salvation. God is also obligated to allow one to be condemned that turns from Him in order to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Eze.3:18-21; 18:4, 20-24; 33:12-13; Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Jas.4:4; etc.). You haven't bothered looking up the reference verses I just gave... you've had no time in between my two posts, yet you respond with an argument. I'm not coming at you with human philosophy of my own opinion. I use the Word of God with many references to back up the claims I know you haven't understood. Let those answer your argument, not me.

Don't you understand that being saved is no works (Eph.2:8-9), but that salvation is not eternal, eternal salvation is what we hope for (Rom.8:24-25; 13:11; 1 Tim.1:1; Tit.1:1-2; Heb.3:6; etc.). Once you accept Christ to wash away all your past sins (Rom.3:25), it is a matter of works plus faith to keep you saved (Jas.2:24). Jesus speaks of these works in the 7 epistles to the church (Rev.2-3). To remain obedient to God's Word takes work. We labor for eternal life (Jn.6:27) by not sinning, b/c sin is what God must judge without respect of person (1 Pt.1:17). Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Phil.2:12)...why fear God? The only reason is because of His judgment (Lk.12:4-5). What does He judge? It is only sin, which cannot be judged with respect of persons (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25). Therefore, there is no work we can do to get rid of the penalty from our past sins (Eph.2:8-9), but it does take work to keep ourselves from future condemnation. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone?

The following are the works of keeping salvation and the conditions of eternal life. Salvation isn’t kept and manifested as eternal unless you labor for it (Jn.6:27). We must also: come to Christ (Jn.6:37, 44, 45, 65); eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn.6:50-51, 53, 58); reap (Jn.4:35-38); hate (love less) the life in this world (Jn.12:25); know God and Christ (Jn.17:2-3); enter right gate (Mat.7:13-14); cause no offense (Mat. 18:8-9); keep commandments (Mat.19:17; Jn.8:31, 51); forsake all (Mat.19:27-29; Mk.10:28-30; Lk.18:28-30); live free from sin (Rom.5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Tit.2:11-14); continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom.2:7); sow to the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8); fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim.6:12, 19); be sober and hope to the end for it (Tit.1:2; 3:7; 1 Pt.1:5, 9, 13; Rom.8:24); endure temptations (Jas.1:12); let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn.2:24-25; 5:11-20); love everybody (1 Jn.3:14-15); keep yourself in the love of God, looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24); overcome sin (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21); be faithful unto death (Rev.2:10; Heb.12:14-15); believe and obey the gospel (Jn.3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40; 47, 54; 2 Cor.5:17; Rom.1:5); and be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn.3; 10:27-29).

I agree with most of this, not this part, though:

God is obligated to save anyone who repents and turns from sin in order to wilfully walk in obedience to the gospel program. Free will was not exchanged for salvation. God is also obligated to allow one to be condemned that turns from Him in order to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

At the risk of turning this into a OSAS thread, I think the majority of Paul's Faith/Works chapters are speaking directly in opposition to this attitude that was (and still is) prevelant within Judaism. The attitude of obligation. I do believe we can lose our salvation, yet if we do obey, God is under no LEGAL obligation to save us. He saves us because He loves us and gives us the will and means to come to him for that salvation. Our relationship with God changed with the fulfilment of Christ's mission. We are now adopted sons under His Grace instead of a chosen people fulfilling God's Law.

 

[XTruth]

God is obligated to save anyone who repents and turns from sin in order to wilfully walk in obedience to the gospel program. Free will was not exchanged for salvation. God is also obligated to allow one to be condemned that turns from Him in order to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Eze.3:18-21; 18:4, 20-24; 33:12-13; Rom.6:16-23; 8:12-13; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Jas.4:4; etc.). You haven't bothered looking up the reference verses I just gave... you've had no time in between my two posts, yet you respond with an argument. I'm not coming at you with human philosophy of my own opinion. I use the Word of God with many references to back up the claims I know you haven't understood. Let those answer your argument, not me.

Don't you understand that being saved is no works (Eph.2:8-9), but that salvation is not eternal, eternal salvation is what we hope for (Rom.8:24-25; 13:11; 1 Tim.1:1; Tit.1:1-2; Heb.3:6; etc.). Once you accept Christ to wash away all your past sins (Rom.3:25), it is a matter of works plus faith to keep you saved (Jas.2:24). Jesus speaks of these works in the 7 epistles to the church (Rev.2-3). To remain obedient to God's Word takes work. We labor for eternal life (Jn.6:27) by not sinning, b/c sin is what God must judge without respect of person (1 Pt.1:17). Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Phil.2:12)...why fear God? The only reason is because of His judgment (Lk.12:4-5). What does He judge? It is only sin, which cannot be judged with respect of persons (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25). Therefore, there is no work we can do to get rid of the penalty from our past sins (Eph.2:8-9), but it does take work to keep ourselves from future condemnation. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone?

The following are the works of keeping salvation and the conditions of eternal life. Salvation isn’t kept and manifested as eternal unless you labor for it (Jn.6:27). We must also: come to Christ (Jn.6:37, 44, 45, 65); eat His flesh and drink His blood (Jn.6:50-51, 53, 58); reap (Jn.4:35-38); hate (love less) the life in this world (Jn.12:25); know God and Christ (Jn.17:2-3); enter right gate (Mat.7:13-14); cause no offense (Mat. 18:8-9); keep commandments (Mat.19:17; Jn.8:31, 51); forsake all (Mat.19:27-29; Mk.10:28-30; Lk.18:28-30); live free from sin (Rom.5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Tit.2:11-14); continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom.2:7); sow to the Spirit (Gal.6:7-8); fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim.6:12, 19); be sober and hope to the end for it (Tit.1:2; 3:7; 1 Pt.1:5, 9, 13; Rom.8:24); endure temptations (Jas.1:12); let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn.2:24-25; 5:11-20); love everybody (1 Jn.3:14-15); keep yourself in the love of God, looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24); overcome sin (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21); be faithful unto death (Rev.2:10; Heb.12:14-15); believe and obey the gospel (Jn.3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40; 47, 54; 2 Cor.5:17; Rom.1:5); and be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn.3; 10:27-29).

I agree with most of this, not this part, though:

God is obligated to save anyone who repents and turns from sin in order to wilfully walk in obedience to the gospel program. Free will was not exchanged for salvation. God is also obligated to allow one to be condemned that turns from Him in order to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

At the risk of turning this into a OSAS thread, I think the majority of Paul's Faith/Works chapters are speaking directly in opposition to this attitude that was (and still is) prevelant within Judaism. The attitude of obligation. I do believe we can lose our salvation, yet if we do obey, God is under no LEGAL obligation to save us. He saves us because He loves us and gives us the will and means to come to him for that salvation. Our relationship with God changed with the fulfilment of Christ's mission. We are now adopted sons under His Grace instead of a chosen people fulfilling God's Law.

Ezekiel 3:17-21-- 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.



Ezekiel 18:4, 24 ------ 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.


Ezekiel 33:12-13------- 12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.


Rom.6:23---- 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Rom.8:12-13----- 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.



There are many more references, but I have to assume you had already looked those up before you said you didn't believe. If you don't believe the plain warnings from the Bible, then I won't argue...nothing more I can do about that.