What Commandments are in force FOREVER?

[Eccl12and13]

I had a conversation once with an atheist, along these same lines. He could not understand how God could condemn anyone. I traded posts with him for ever so long, then the answer struck me.

So I told him, suppose you were driving along a highway, where there was a speed limit sign 55mph. You see the sign, but choose to ignore it, and drive 70mph. Soon you hear a siren, and see a blue light, its the law. So the officer pulls you over, and writes you a ticket.

Now you have to appear in front of the judge. He finds you guilty, by what law, the sign of course. You now pay the penalty, for breaking the law of that sign.

Now let me ask, did the officer condemn you, or the judge; NO. You condemned yourself, when you choose to ignore that sign, posted in plain sight, so you have no excuse.

Now what is Gods sign, his son Jesus Christ, if you trust and obey that sign, you pay no penalty. But if you choose to ignore Christ, the penalty is already stated, death. For the wages of sin is death, but life is in the Son, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Judge that offers to pay the fine associated with the ticket that the officer gives out for speeding. Does that mean we can continue to speed because we have a Judge that pays the fine? Is someone pardoned by the governor for a crime allowed to continue to commit the crime he was pardoned for?

Jesus didn't die so people could eat pork.

The only problem RND is that most believe there is no crime to commit because they believe there is no law.

 

[samuel]

No Jesus did not die so those who believe, could continue in sin, who would think such a thing. OSAS does not work, at least the way some see it.

Some just have a hard time seeing the diffrence in a moral law, and a spiritual law. The law was never ment to obey to the letter, but in the spirit.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Isaiah 66 is referring to Gods judgment against both unbelieving Jew, and Gentile. It has nothing to do with the believer, of either Jew or Gentile.

Zechariah 14 - is speaking about the time during Christ reign on earth, during the Millennium (1000 years). When all will revert back to the old principles, of sacrifice and law. During that time all will have to abide by it, both Jew and Gentile.

The present fulfillment of law, is only to believers. Paul said in Romans those under the law, will be judged by the law, those not under law will be judged, without law. But both have to answer to the wages of sin, which is death.

Sorry, there is no distinction between belivers or non. The scriptures only says, 'the slain of the LORD shall be many.", and "..."They that". We can only go with what the scriptiures say.

Because if we go with your line of thinking, a believing Jew or Gentile will not be punished for eating swine, while the unbelieving WILL be punished. Is that a fair judge? Let's hear what the bible has to say on the matter:

Gen.18
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Of course God will do right. Which is why He said the following:

Exod.12
[49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Num.15
[16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

There is not one set of laws for the Jew and another for the Gentile. Which makes this scripture true:

Acts.10
[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Next
So Samuel, If we ALL must keep the feast in the 1000yr Millennium, the one God said would be Forever, just when was it suspended for the Gentiles? Because the scriptures says, ALL nations and ALL families!

 

[RND]

No Jesus did not die so those who believe, could continue in sin, who would think such a thing. OSAS does not work, at least the way some see it.

Some just have a hard time seeing the diffrence in a moral law, and a spiritual law. The law was never ment to obey to the letter, but in the spirit.

Samuel, it is impossible to obey any directive, commandment or desire of God without the Spirit. The law of God cannot be obeyed outside of the Spirit and in fact the carnal mind is against the law of God.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Jesus didn't die so people could eat pork.

 

[Paidion]

ALL of God's commandments are still to be obeyed.

Here is a command which God supposedly gave to Moses:

"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Eccl, I don't know whether you are married, or if so, whether you have any children. But would you and your wife be willing to carry out this command, to inform the elders of your rebellions son, and have the the men of your city stone him to death?

But whether you are willing or not is not the question. Do you believe that people OUGHT to obey this law and so have their rebellious children put to death?

 

[samuel]

Its hard for me to believe people to be as inept, as some seem here. I think its more just to start an arguement, than to get a real answer.

 

[Eccl12and13]

ALL of God's commandments are still to be obeyed.

Here is a command which God supposedly gave to Moses:

"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Eccl, I don't know whether you are married, or if so, whether you have any children. But would you and your wife be willing to carry out this command, to inform the elders of your rebellions son, and have the the men of your city stone him to death?

But whether you are willing or not is not the question. Do you believe that people OUGHT to obey this law and so have their rebellious children put to death?

Of course not Paidion, and Jesus even gave us an example for it. Notice in the example that a Law was still broken and the tresspassor was told not to continue to break the law, or 'sin', as Jesus said. So it would be for my son. If he was disrespectfull and would not listen, there are agencies for him to go to. Of course I would not stone him, but that does not mean one of Gods laws was not broken. Let's read the example Jesus left us:

John.8
[1] Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
[2] And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
[3] And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
[4] They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
[5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
[6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
[7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
[8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
[9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
[10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
[11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Now let's read the Law that would be broken in the example you gave Paidion:

Exod.20
[12] Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Mark.10
[19] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Eph.6
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)

So I ask you Paidion, is this law still one to be obeyed? Is it to be observed forever? Was it nailed to the cross?

 

[Rick W]

Is one saved by observing the law?

 

[RND]

Is one saved by observing the law?

Nope, everything's by promise. Righteousness by faith. Does that wipe out the law?

 

[Rick W]

What is the law for?

 

[RND]

What is the law for?

Identifying transgression. Revealing iniquity. Pointing out our need for a Savior.

 

[Rick W]

Agreed.
How do we know which OT laws pertain to us after Christ's resurrection?

 

[RND]

Agreed.
How do we know which OT laws pertain to us after Christ's resurrection?

Common sense and the Holy Spirit seem to work pretty well. If you and I have the same physical make-up as an Israelite why was eating pork bad for them but not you and me?

 

[Rick W]

Christ taught very much on the lines of how to treat others. There wasn't much he taught about "self".
Love God, love your neighbor etc.

The Law was pretty much a personal thing, you must do this... you must do that... being clean, unclean. Things of self mattered, things one did or didn't do was pretty much the whole of the Law. again, very self focused.

Christ is resurrected:

The Holy Spirit is given. Self becomes Him, we are inwardly clean, circumcised of heart. The Holy Spirit dwells within. Our concern then is to others. We are now FREE of the bonds of self. Our focus becomes our neighbors not ourselves. Christ took care of of the inward man. We become less of ourselves to become more of Him.

So what Laws are important to us?
Those that have an impact on others. Adultery, sexual immorality, stealing, lying, cheating, false witness etc.
No longer are we under the Law toward cleanliness. We're clean already. The Holy of Holies is no longer separated from us. The veil was torn from top to bottom. No longer are we under the Law to stone an adulterer. We are to forgive. No longer are we bound to sacrifice for the heavenly sacrifice was given.
But we are under the Law to make restitution, not harm our neighbor, not kill him, not to speak falsely about him, not to covet his wife or his belongings, not to steal from him.
Again, all these things are toward others, not for our benefit. Edification is our prime concern, not self.

No longer are we concerned with self. Eating pork no longer makes us unclean, it cannot replace the Holy Spirit. My eating pork does not harm my neighbor. It does not make me unclean. Now, if I invite you to dinner I won't serve pork for I know your beliefs. Again, not for me but for you. Outward, not inward.

Look at what Moses taught and what Christ taught. Two different focuses altogether.
Self - Others.
Trust the Holy Spirit to make you clean. Not yourself. The gift is given.

 

[Rick W]

All I ask is that you ask yourself "What I'm doing or not doing... is it for me or for others."
Remember, the Holy Spirit now dwells in you. You are clean. That's what Christ did for you on the cross and through His Resurrection. He made you clean. Forever.

 

[Rick W]

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

 

[RND]

Christ taught very much on the lines of how to treat others. There wasn't much he taught about "self".
Love God, love your neighbor etc.

The Law was pretty much a personal thing, you must do this... you must do that... being clean, unclean. Things of self mattered, things one did or didn't do was pretty much the whole of the Law. again, very self focused.

Christ is resurrected:

The Holy Spirit is given. Self becomes Him, we are inwardly clean, circumcised of heart. The Holy Spirit dwells within. Our concern then is to others. We are now FREE of the bonds of self. Our focus becomes our neighbors not ourselves. Christ took care of of the inward man. We become less of ourselves to become more of Him.

So what Laws are important to us?
Those that have an impact on others. Adultery, sexual immorality, stealing, lying, cheating, false witness etc.
No longer are we under the Law toward cleanliness. We're clean already. The Holy of Holies is no longer separated from us. The veil was torn from top to bottom. No longer are we under the Law to stone an adulterer. We are to forgive. No longer are we bound to sacrifice for the heavenly sacrifice was given.
But we are under the Law to make restitution, not harm our neighbor, not kill him, not to speak falsely about him, not to covet his wife or his belongings, not to steal from him.
Again, all these things are toward others, not for our benefit. Edification is our prime concern, not self.

No longer are we concerned with self. Eating pork no longer makes us unclean, it cannot replace the Holy Spirit. My eating pork does not harm my neighbor. It does not make me unclean. Now, if I invite you to dinner I won't serve pork for I know your beliefs. Again, not for me but for you. Outward, not inward.

Look at what Moses taught and what Christ taught. Two different focuses altogether.
Self - Others.
Trust the Holy Spirit to make you clean. Not yourself. The gift is given.

How do you decide what laws to keep? Restitution? Why keep that and not the health laws?

 

[Rick W]

How do you decide what laws to keep?

I've already answered that question.

Health laws? Washing of hands?
Hey, we know what a microbe is and what it can do so we do this anyway.
Pork may not be the healthiest thing in the world but again my eating pork does not harm my neighbor.
Getting exercise, watching cholesterol, getting a checkup periodically, ... all this is pretty much front and center these days. You see it everywhere. Even the pagan does it. Yet, I don't know of any way to die safely. No matter what health I'm in I'm destined to die. Is it good that I neglect my health? No. But being healthy can make my time here on earth a lot more comfortable.

If you want to trust in yourself to remain clean that's up to you. If Christ died for our sins that means we are clean. We didn't do it and we can't do it. That was the whole purpose of His work, making us clean. Free from the penalty of sin, death. Clean. Unblemished. To become His bride without spot. Clothed in white. That's why Christ stayed on the cross.


The Holy Spirit is given, we are clean.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[Eccl12and13]

How do you decide what laws to keep?

I've already answered that question.

Health laws? Washing of hands?
Hey, we know what a microbe is and what it can do so we do this anyway.
Pork may not be the healthiest thing in the world but again my eating pork does not harm my neighbor.

No it does not. But it could very well harm you. Again, I present the question waiting for an biblical answer:

Is. 66 [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
[17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Question 1:
Why would Christ, at His 2nd coming, consume those that eat SWINE and MICE? If the dietary laws were done away with and nailed on the cross, why is God punishing these people?

If you were a pork eater, wouldn't you want to know why? This has to be fullfilled by someone. God did not have the prophets put this in His holy scriptures for nothing!

God is going to CONSUME those that eat SWINES flesh, the ABOMINATION, and the MOUSE!!! There is nothing said about the person's nationality. Only that they did what God said not to do.

Rick...Can you tell me why you think God is going to do this? Don't give me your best guess, give me scriptures. God would not tell us He is going to consume people without giving them a reason WHY!!! Is not the judge of the whole world fair?

 

[Rick W]

Eccl12and13,
I've answered your question but you didn't like the answer.
Oh well.