What did 2 Thessalonians mean to the Thessalonians?

[Alabaster]

Whose persecutions and tribulations is Paul addressing here? To whom is Paul first and foremost referring when he says "your" and "you?"

Matthew24:34

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.
Mat 24:32 But learn the parable of the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and it puts out leaves, you know that the summer is near;
Mat 24:33 so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

Matt 24 is about the tribulation of the Jews. But yes, Jesus came back and the rapture/gathering thing happened in the 1st century. Probably sometime around 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. At least that's what it says happened.

Eeek!

 

[Sinthesis]

It is relevant as you two are both reading the same things yet coming up with different meanings. You may just want to be two fools yelling at each other about how each of you is holier than the other. Or you could first take the simple task of first defining what the phrases "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 mean.

Is that fair, Sinthesis--accusing someone of claiming to be holier than someone else? When did I do that? Perhaps you might consider being careful lest you become guilty of that of which you accuse others? I'm just saying!

Matthew24:34

Right back atcha :nag
The basis of the conflict in this thread is summarized by Vic C.

there of a type of parousia in 70AD but the actual and physical one, as described in Acts 1, is yet to come.

Neither viewpoint has a monopoly on truth as long as the definitions of terms remain vague. To bridge the gap, it would be helpful to first define what the phrases "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 mean. Otherwise each side is just talking past the other saying their interpretation is the correct(Holy) one. Of course my scriptural views always have the most holes! :D

 

[Matthew24:34]

Whose persecutions and tribulations is Paul addressing here? To whom is Paul first and foremost referring when he says "your" and "you?"

Matthew24:34

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.
Mat 24:32 But learn the parable of the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and it puts out leaves, you know that the summer is near;
Mat 24:33 so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

Matt 24 is about the tribulation of the Jews. But yes, Jesus came back and the rapture/gathering thing happened in the 1st century. Probably sometime around 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. At least that's what it says happened.

Eeek!

Exactly, Alabaster: That is what it says happened! Are you being sarcastic or did you state what you really believe. I can't tell. If you were being sarcastic, this is my answer. Were you there to know that it did not? If we insist on a visible-to-all, physical return of Christ, we will never see its past fulfillment!

Please exegete 1 Thessalonians 4, Alabaster. Whom did Paul mean when he said "we?" Was he not including himself and those to whom he wrote (and by extension those of that generation who would read what he wrote as the letter was passed around) when he said "WE?" WE are not the WE Paul was speaking of. However that gathering took place, it happened to THOSE of that first-century. This is what is clearly taught in 2 Thessalonians 1 if you would bother to exegete word by word and verse by verse. It was THOSE very Thessalonians and the other saints of THAT generation who were to be given rest from THEIR trials and tribulations AT HIS APPEARING! Furthermore, it was THOSE very persecutors whom Jesus was going to repay AT HIS APPEARING! That is what the words say, Alabaster.

Please exegete the passage. That is what this thread is about. If you do not wish to EXEGETE, start a different thread for opinions! Thank you!

Matthew24:34

 

[Alabaster]

My opinion is that the lawless one spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 has yet to be revealed, which means the passage continues to be in effect for the Church of this age.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 NLT
Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealedâ€â€the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.


I heed what I read:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT
Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.


Obviously the Lord Jesus Christ has not come yet. It is a fool who believes such a thing.

 

[Vic C.]

My opinion is that the lawless one spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 has yet to be revealed, which means the passage continues to be in effect for the Church of this age.

I have to agree. There is so much lawlessness around us, starting with the very house of God.

 

[Matthew24:34]

My opinion is that the lawless one spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 has yet to be revealed, which means the passage continues to be in effect for the Church of this age.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 NLT
Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealedâ€â€the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.


I heed what I read:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT
Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.


Obviously the Lord Jesus Christ has not come yet. It is a fool who believes such a thing.

Alabaster: Have you already exegeted 2 Thessalonians 1? Is not the context of this entire book THOSE very Thessalonians of Paul's day? Is not this entire letter addressed to them so that we are really reading someone else's mail? It was THOSE very Thessalonians who were to be given rest AT HIS APPEARING! It was THOSE very persecutors of THOSE very Thessalonians whom the Lord was to repay AT HIS APPEARING!

Who are the "brethren" of chapter 2, Alabaster? Is not Paul still addressing THOSE very Thessalonians of his day? Yes! THEY were not "to be SOON shaken in mind and troubled either by spirit or by word or by letter!" The day of the Lord was to involve great tribulation and trials. THEY, already suffering some persecutions, were being advised by some that that day of the Lord was already present. Paul does not correct their expectation of that day and its personal affect upon them--he corrects their timing. It was going to affect them--but not until the restrainer, whom THEY knew, was taken out of the way and the man of sin was revealed. When Paul speaks of "our gathering together," he is not addressing US! He is addressing THEM. He is speaking of THEIR gathering together to Him! That is the CONTEXT! Whether we "see" it or not, Jesus came to that generation of Thessalonians, gave THEM rest, punished their persecutors and gathered THEM to Himself!

Did not Paul write to them a first letter in which he told THEM these things? Who was it that knew the restrainer? THOSE of that first-century age knew the identity of the restrainer. It was that very restrainer that was to be taken out of the way and THEN the Man of Sin was revealed. Paul is not saying--You Thessalonians know what now restrains, and when it/he is taken out of the way thousands of years from now, the man of sin will be revealed. That which restrained and the man of sin were contemporaneous! There are only two ways of understanding the actions of this man of sin. He either someone who sat in that very Temple of that day (Herod's Temple) or he was someone who sat as God sits in His Temple. In other words, he claimed to possess the very authority and power of God who sits in His Temple! It has nothing to do with some rebuilt Temple of our day--nothing! The man of sin does not have to yet be revealed. He has been revealed--in that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 generation to whom Paul wrote!

For those who refuse to believe all the many times in the NT that Jesus and the disciples boldly proclaimed that He was to return in that generation, there is nothing that will sway them. Jesus could have plainly said, "I am returning in A. D. 70" and they would still not believe because they look for a return that is not biblical, can't see the one they have created, and then pronounce that it has not yet happen. Those who accept the words of our Lord and His inspired apostles at face value are then falsely called "fools."

Again, I caution all to refrain from accusing others of things of which we ourselves might be found guilty! For me it is a foolish thing to read Matthew 24:34 and not clearly see that Jesus was teaching that He was coming back to THAT generation! It is a foolish thing to deny that Jesus told His disciples that some of them would not die until He came in His kingdom (Mat.16:28). It is a foolish thing to refuse to accept that Jesus plainly told the Twelve that THEY would not finish going through the cities of Israel before He came (Mat. 10:23). It is foolish thing to not understand that Jesus was telling that very flesh-and-blood Caiaphas and Sanhedrin of His day that THEY would see Him "sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mat. 26:64).

Obviously, Jesus and the inspired writers plainly taught that He was coming back in that generation. If taking Jesus and His apostles at their word makes me a fool, I wear the title proudly!


Matthew24:34

 

[Alabaster]

You exegete erroneously.

We are the generation the message is for--the prophecy is a dual one. Obviously the Lord has not returned in the clouds, has He? Anyone--even a child can discern that the Second Coming has yet to occur.

When Jesus talks about "this generation", He is referring to the Church age.

As it is, God has made His message simple. We receive the true meaning by the work of the Holy Spirit within. He has not revealed to me what you are preaching, which makes me certain that your perception of the truth regarding last things is wrong.

Sometimes being too literal causes trouble.

 

[researcher]

Whose persecutions and tribulations is Paul addressing here? To whom is Paul first and foremost referring when he says "your" and "you?"

Matthew24:34

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.
Mat 24:32 But learn the parable of the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and it puts out leaves, you know that the summer is near;
Mat 24:33 so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

Matt 24 is about the tribulation of the Jews. But yes, Jesus came back and the rapture/gathering thing happened in the 1st century. Probably sometime around 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. At least that's what it says happened.

Eeek!

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 3:11 'I am coming quickly! Be holding fast what you have, so that no one shall receive your victor's wreath.
Rev 22:7 "{And} listen! I am coming quickly! Happy [is] the one keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll."
Rev 22:12 "Listen! I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with me, to render [or, repay] to each as his work will be [fig., according to his deeds].
Rev 22:10 And he says to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, {for} the time is near.
Rev 22:20 The One testifying to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly!" So be it! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:

Heb 10:37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1Co 7:31 and those that use the world, as not using it to the full: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
Rom 13:11 And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed.

2Ti 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign--

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


Eeek it is then! :P

 

[parousia70]

You exegete erroneously.

We are the generation the message is for--the prophecy is a dual one.

Why only dual? Why not triple or quadruple or octuple for that matter?

When Jesus talks about "this generation", He is referring to the Church age.

How could he have been? When Jesus spoke those words the Church age hadn't even begun nor was even known about by the apostles.

Obviously the Lord has not returned in the clouds, has He?..........

Sometimes being too literal causes trouble.

Did you actually say both those things in the same breath???.... with a straight face??

 

[Matthew24:34]

You exegete erroneously.

We are the generation the message is for--the prophecy is a dual one. Obviously the Lord has not returned in the clouds, has He? Anyone--even a child can discern that the Second Coming has yet to occur.

When Jesus talks about "this generation", He is referring to the Church age.

As it is, God has made His message simple. We receive the true meaning by the work of the Holy Spirit within. He has not revealed to me what you are preaching, which makes me certain that your perception of the truth regarding last things is wrong.

Sometimes being too literal causes trouble.

Dear Alabaster: Would you please look up all of the twenty uses of "this generation" in the NT? EVERY time Jesus used that expression, without exception, He meant His contemporaries. Always! Dual fulfillments are the creation of those who will not accept the real one! What did Jesus say to Caiaphas, Alabaster? Did He not look right at that flesh-and-blood high priest and the rest of the Sanhedrin and say "YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN!" (Mat. 26:64). What is unclear about that?

He HAS revealed to you these things, Alabaster. You simply refuse to receive them.

But you are right--"sometimes being too literal causes trouble." It is that very problem that causes futurists, especially dispensationalists, to twist the plain meaning of Jesus' words in Matthew 24:34. They take literally verses 29-31. They do not see the "literal" fulfillment of those verses in the first century, so they redefine "this generation" and give it a meaning totally foreign to Jesus' consistent use of it! If THEY were not so literal, THEY would see that verses 29-31 clearly involve apocalyptic, figurative, prophetic language quite common in the OT prophetic writings. Many, many times in the OT, God is depicted as coming in judgment with attendant upheavals in the heavens and on the earth--upheavals that never actually occurred! The earth has never literally shaken out of her place as Isaiah described. The hosts of heaven never literally fell from heaven. The heavens were never literally rolled up as a scroll! The mountains were never literally covered with blood! The disciples standing right there with Jesus on the Mount of Olives had no problem with Jesus' figurative, judgment language. They had heard it before! They had read it in the OT Scriptures. They understood it to be the same type of language that was used by their prophets to describe to their forefathers God's coming in judgment against them and other nations. They never took it literally. Why do you?

After stating those figurative prophecies in Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus told those very disciples standing right there with Him that THEY were to recognize THOSE signs when THEY saw them just as easily as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree and ALL the trees (Luke 21 adds). When would those sign appears? "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." That includes verses 29-31!

What should be our approach to Scripture, Alabaster? Do we rightly look at the plain words of our Lord and then seek to build our concept of His return based upon them? Or do we restate His words because we cannot possible SEE how such things could have already occurred? IF Jesus said He was coming back in THAT generation (and He did), should we not adjust our preconceived ideas to match His words regardless of what that does to our long-held, precious beliefs?

No, Jesus has not return in the way you insist He must. But He has returned in the way He taught He would--in that generation to those very saints of that first-century world!

Matthew 24:34

 

[Alabaster]

You exegete erroneously.

We are the generation the message is for--the prophecy is a dual one.

Why only dual? Why not triple or quadruple or octuple for that matter?

It's dual in this instance.

When Jesus talks about "this generation", He is referring to the Church age.

How could he have been? When Jesus spoke those words the Church age hadn't even begun nor was even known about by the apostles.

Oh dear, I guess Jesus was unaware we would be reading His words! I guess He wasn't prophetic!

Obviously the Lord has not returned in the clouds, has He?..........

Sometimes being too literal causes trouble.[/b]

Did you actually say both those things in the same breath???.... with a straight face??

Yes, why?

 

[Alabaster]

Matthew 26:64 NLT
Jesus replied, “You have said it. And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.â€Â

EVERYONE will see Jesus coming into power in Heaven.

Jesus has yet to return. I will be riding with Him when He does.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Matthew 26:64 NLT
Jesus replied, “You have said it. And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.â€Â

EVERYONE will see Jesus coming into power in Heaven.

Jesus has yet to return. I will be riding with Him when He does.

Alabaster: Nowhere does Jesus indicate that He is referring to a time after the death of Caiaphas and those living members of the Sanhedrin. Nowhere does He indicate that they were to see Him many, many, many years after their deaths. Nowhere! He is clearly saying to them that THEY, in THEIR lifetimes, would see Him coming on the clouds of heaven. Furthermore, in the Greek the verse simply says "you will see--Period. The word is opsesthe. It is the second person plural future of horao--to see or to behold. The future tense simply indicates something that will happen. This is the predictive future--the most common use of the future tense in the NT. It does not give the span of time at which something will happen but simply states that it will happen. It is the same form of the future as found in Mark 11:2. Jesus told His disciples to go into a village and "you will find a colt." The "will find" is the second person plural future (euresete) form of eurisko--"to find."
Again, there is nothing in the verb itself that indicates the timing. It simply states that something will happen! The NLT's addition of "in the future" is clearly interpretive and unnecessary!

By viewing Matthew 26:64 contextually and without bias, one clearly understands t--unless one is trying to force a meaning that is not there! Jesus was telling Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin that they personally in their lifetimes would see Him "sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." It is not the words themselves that cause someone to stumble over the clear meaning of the words here but the preconceived ideas that one brings to them.

You and so many like you WANT to come riding with Jesus, so you refuse to accept the fact that indeed you will not! He has returned. Sorry, that return did not include you and was not intended to include you! Again, the context from which you derive your idea of riding with Jesus involves those things which John was shown which were to in his day SHORTLY take place because the time for their fulfillment was THEN near! Do not look to the future for that which is past!

Matthew24:34

 

[Alabaster]

Yes, Caiaphas and the members of the Sanhedrin of that day will see Jesus come into His Kingdom one day. Probably much to their horror as they were nearly all unbelievers.

Myself with my redeemed brothers and sisters will don our white, washed robes and ride with Jesus our King when He comes to establish Himself as Ruler over all.

Hallelujah! Come, Lord Jesus!

 

[researcher]

Matthew 26:64 NLT
Jesus replied, “You have said it. And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.â€Â

EVERYONE will see Jesus coming into power in Heaven.

Jesus has yet to return. I will be riding with Him when He does.

(Greek Interlinear)
Matt 26:64 legO autos ho iEsous su legO plEn legO humeis apo arti optomai ho huios ho anthrOpos kathEmai ek dexios ho dunamis kai erchomai epi ho nephelE ho ouranos

Is saying to him, the Jesus you say, morely I am saying to you from-at-present ye-shall-be-viewing the son of the human sitting out of-right of the ability and coming on of-the clouds of-the heaven
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /mat26.pdf

The only thing we'll be seeing is

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand ("chilioi" Greek Plural) years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Jesus couldn't have not come back already. If he didn't then he mispoke or lied.

 

[Alabaster]

Then to you Jesus is a liar. To me he isn't and He wil come back for His faithful Bride--the Church, of which I am a member.

 

[researcher]

Then to you Jesus is a liar. To me he isn't and He wil come back for His faithful Bride--the Church, of which I am a member.

Lol. Actually, I don't believe he lied. He did what he said he would. He came back in the 1st century and we are now at the end of the millennium.

As for being part of the "church," so am I. I've done more miracles by the HS than everyone on this board combined.

There is no harm believing that the rapture didn't happen. I believed it for 17 years. And that didn't stop God from working in my life. It is a hard truth to accept. Some might never believe it. But I think many will come to believe. Took me over a year to accept it. :\ But I know now without a doubt, Jesus came back, most likely around 70AD.

 

[Alabaster]

Then to you Jesus is a liar. To me he isn't and He wil come back for His faithful Bride--the Church, of which I am a member.

Lol. Actually, I don't believe he lied. He did what he said he would. He came back in the 1st century and we are now at the end of the millennium.

As for being part of the "church," so am I. I've done more miracles by the HS than everyone on this board combined.

There is no harm believing that the rapture didn't happen. I believed it for 17 years. And that didn't stop God from working in my life. It is a hard truth to accept. Some might never believe it. But I think many will come to believe. Took me over a year to accept it. :\ But I know now without a doubt, Jesus came back, most likely around 70AD.

End of the Millennium? 2000 years later? ROFL!!!

It took a year to accept it? You mean it took a year to allow faith to degrade. Miracles are only done by God through the Holy Spirit working in and through us. Boasting of one's exploits in the Lord is not a godly behaviour.

 

[parousia70]

You exegete erroneously.

We are the generation the message is for--the prophecy is a dual one.

Why only dual? Why not triple or quadruple or octuple for that matter?

It's dual in this instance.

Again i ask, why only dual in this instance? Why not triple, or octuple?
Where does scripture teach it is only a dual prophesy?

[quote:3dqxllnt]When Jesus talks about "this generation", He is referring to the Church age.

How could he have been? When Jesus spoke those words the Church age hadn't even begun nor was even known about by the apostles.

Oh dear, I guess Jesus was unaware we would be reading His words! I guess He wasn't prophetic![/quote:3dqxllnt]

He was speaking to real air breathing blood pumping disciples in the first century wasn't he?
Did He have no regard for how those words were to apply to them?

[quote:3dqxllnt]Obviously the Lord has not returned in the clouds, has He?..........

Sometimes being too literal causes trouble.[/b]

Did you actually say both those things in the same breath???.... with a straight face??

Yes, why?[/quote:3dqxllnt]

Of course Jesus returned on the clouds, in the Fathers glory, just as the Father did in the OT times.
Why is it so easy for you to believe the Father came on the clouds in OT times when you have no historical proof of Him doing so, yet impossible for you to believe Jesus did?

 

[Alabaster]

Why does Scripture have to teach single, dual or otherrwise? I and bible scholars see a dual prophecy there.

If you see more, then please share.