What did 2 Thessalonians mean to the Thessalonians?

[Alabaster]

Of course Jesus returned on the clouds, in the Fathers glory, just as the Father did in the OT times.

NO, HE DIDN'T.

Why is it so easy for you to believe the Father came on the clouds in OT times when you have no historical proof of Him doing so, yet impossible for you to believe Jesus did?

The Father came on the clouds?

Jesus has not yet come as all the signs of His coming have not manifested yet. Why this time now is deemed the Millennium is ridiculous, for Jesus reigns on Earth during the Millennium--and guess what? We, the Bride, the Church reign with Him!

What kind of church teaches this, anyway? It's absolutely incredible that people can misinterpret Scripture in this way. This is someone's idea, who is not a Spirit-filled believer, and he is teaching gullible people error.

 

[researcher]

Then to you Jesus is a liar. To me he isn't and He wil come back for His faithful Bride--the Church, of which I am a member.

Lol. Actually, I don't believe he lied. He did what he said he would. He came back in the 1st century and we are now at the end of the millennium.

As for being part of the "church," so am I. I've done more miracles by the HS than everyone on this board combined.

There is no harm believing that the rapture didn't happen. I believed it for 17 years. And that didn't stop God from working in my life. It is a hard truth to accept. Some might never believe it. But I think many will come to believe. Took me over a year to accept it. :\ But I know now without a doubt, Jesus came back, most likely around 70AD.

End of the Millennium? 2000 years later? ROFL!!!

It took a year to accept it? You mean it took a year to allow faith to degrade. Miracles are only done by God through the Holy Spirit working in and through us. Boasting of one's exploits in the Lord is not a godly behaviour.

The Greek word used for 1000 in Rev. 20 is a plural word.

As for boasting -

2Co 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
2Co 11:17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
2Co 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

It has it's place to achieve the desired results. ;)

 

[researcher]

Of course Jesus returned on the clouds, in the Fathers glory, just as the Father did in the OT times.

NO, HE DIDN'T.

[quote:3izfhg8h]Why is it so easy for you to believe the Father came on the clouds in OT times when you have no historical proof of Him doing so, yet impossible for you to believe Jesus did?

The Father came on the clouds?

Jesus has not yet come as all the signs of His coming have not manifested yet. Why this time now is deemed the Millennium is ridiculous, for Jesus reigns on Earth during the Millennium--and guess what? We, the Bride, the Church reign with Him!

What kind of church teaches this, anyway? It's absolutely incredible that people can misinterpret Scripture in this way. This is someone's idea, who is not a Spirit-filled believer, and he is teaching gullible people error.[/quote:3izfhg8h]

Jesus began his reign over heaven and earth in the first century, and he was/is ruling from heaven.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

Mar 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

Pretty clear.

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus is not reigning on earth at the moment, so your theology is wrong. Last time I looked, I haven't been given my position in the New Earth Kingdom yet, and as a redeemed child of the King, I am sure He would let me know if He was here, dontcha think?

 

[Alabaster]

The Greek word used for 1000 in Rev. 20 is a plural word.

Probably because 1,000 is more than 1...

(Less than 2,000!)

 

[Osgiliath]

Oh boy

 

[Matthew24:34]

Of course Jesus returned on the clouds, in the Fathers glory, just as the Father did in the OT times.

NO, HE DIDN'T.

[quote:11m2jqpc]Why is it so easy for you to believe the Father came on the clouds in OT times when you have no historical proof of Him doing so, yet impossible for you to believe Jesus did?

The Father came on the clouds?

Jesus has not yet come as all the signs of His coming have not manifested yet. Why this time now is deemed the Millennium is ridiculous, for Jesus reigns on Earth during the Millennium--and guess what? We, the Bride, the Church reign with Him!

What kind of church teaches this, anyway? It's absolutely incredible that people can misinterpret Scripture in this way. This is someone's idea, who is not a Spirit-filled believer, and he is teaching gullible people error.[/quote:11m2jqpc]

Who said this time is the millennium?

Misinterpret Scripture? Jesus said, "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Mat. 24:34).

The Revelation clearly involves those things which were in John's day to SHORTLY take place because the time was THEN near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).

Jesus told His disciples standing right there with Him that THEY would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Mat. 24:15).

James taught that "the coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8).

Paul told those very Thessalonians to whom he was writing that the Lord was going to give THEM rest AT HIS APPEARING. The Lord also promised that He would repay their persecutors with the same persecution they had given them AT HIS APPEARING (2 Thes. 1)!

Jesus told His disciples that THEY would not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man came (Mat. 10:23).

Jesus told His disciples that some of THEM standing right there with Him would not die before THEY saw the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom (Mat. 16:28).

Perhaps you should examine yourself first before you accuse others of misinterpreting the Scriptures. You are the one being gullible and listening to the teachings of men (dispensationalists) rather than Jesus' own words. What did Jesus plainly say, Alabaster? Again, would you exegete 2 Thessalonians 1 in its context and with due attention to audience relevance? That is the focus of this thread. To whom was Paul writing? Why was he writing? What is the historical setting of his letter? Who was to be given rest at the Lord's appearing? Who was to be punished at the Lord's appearing?

What does the passage clearly say, Alabaster?

Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Jesus is not reigning on earth at the moment, so your theology is wrong. Last time I looked, I haven't been given my position in the New Earth Kingdom yet, and as a redeemed child of the King, I am sure He would let me know if He was here, dontcha think?

Alabaster: You wrongly believe that Christ is to reign on the earth. When that doesn't happen, you accuse others of having wrong theology! There is no New Earth Kingdom, Alabaster. You can't see fulfillments because you are looking for the wrong fulfillments.

Did not Jesus make it clear that His kingdom is NOT of this world. As a redeemed child of the King, you should understand Jesus' words and accept them. He is not coming to us; we are going to Him!

Would you please exegete 2 Thessalonians 1. That is the focus of this thread!

Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
But in an earlier post of yours above, You agree with me that AD70 was indeed a "coming of Christ" in Judgement.

How is it you know that?

You seriously don't need me to spell that out for you, do you? You FP folks are unbelievable. Even though the prophecy of Jonah was postponed well beyond 40 days because of repentance, if you guys were around back then, you would have been arguing that it actually came to pass, because Jonah initially said it would. Did it ever occur to you why Jonah was a type of Christ, and why Jesus mentioned the sign of Jonah, and why only the Father knows the appointed time of the end, and no one else? Prophecies are conditional. The Jews rejected the sign of Jonah, whereas the Gentiles repented and accepted it. Therefore, the second coming of Christ, which would have occurred in the first century had the nations failed to repent, was postponed, along with the resurrection. Only Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD (i.e. "a" judgment).

Acts 28:28 “Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent to the Gentiles, and that they will hear itâ€Â

The Gospel was preached to both Jews and Gentiles; though during this period, Jews were still given first dibs of hearing the message (Acts 13:5, 14, 42-43; 14:1; 17:1, 10, 17; 18:4, 7, 19, 26; 19:9). When they rejected it, the Gospel was then offered to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46; 18:6; 28:25-28). Because the Gentiles repented God could not bring the world into judgment. Therefore, He postponed the second coming, just as He postponed the judgment of Ninevah because of repentance. To say that there was a worldwide judgment in 70 AD, after the Gospel had been preached with power (Gr. dunamis) to the Gentiles (1 Thessalonians 1:5), and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16), is not in accordance with the Scriptures. This is really quite simple. You guys are far too nearsighted on this issue. You're localizing an event that in truth will be global, including ALL mankind. When this happens, God’s ultimate plan and purpose will be achieved, which is the prevention of sin from occurring again among His children - children that He gave the right to rebel (freewill). What do you think the whole point of all this drama is?

Revelation 21:10 “And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God

21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but only they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.â€Â

70 AD obviously did not accomplish God’s ultimate plan and purpose. Look around you! Put the bifocals on (or trifocals, as it were :D) when you study God’s Word; you have a serious case of myopia.

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus is not reigning on earth at the moment, so your theology is wrong. Last time I looked, I haven't been given my position in the New Earth Kingdom yet, and as a redeemed child of the King, I am sure He would let me know if He was here, dontcha think?

Alabaster: You wrongly believe that Christ is to reign on the earth. When that doesn't happen, you accuse others of having wrong theology! There is no New Earth Kingdom, Alabaster. You can't see fulfillments because you are looking for the wrong fulfillments.

Did not Jesus make it clear that His kingdom is NOT of this world. As a redeemed child of the King, you should understand Jesus' words and accept them. He is not coming to us; we are going to Him!

Would you please exegete 2 Thessalonians 1. That is the focus of this thread!

Matthew24:34

The Millennial Kingdom is on Earth, called the new Earth. It will happen and you will see. you see, I happen to read and understand Scripture.

He is coming back to reign for a mere 1000 years. We will serve Him and reign with Him.

Revelation 20:
4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.



The Kingdom of God comes down after final Judgment. We will live with God in the New Jerusalem forever.

Hey, it's in Revelation 21:
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.â€Â

 

[Alabaster]

You FP folks are unbelievable

Please tell me---what is FP?

 

[parousia70]

Why does Scripture have to teach single, dual or otherrwise? I and bible scholars see a dual prophecy there.

So, Scripture dosen't have to teach it for you to beileve it's scriptural?
What denomination teaches that?

 

[parousia70]

The Father came on the clouds?

Of course He did.
In Psalm 18 David speaks of his deliverance from Saul:

He bowed the heavens also, and came down With thick darkness under His feet. 10 And He rode upon a cherub and flew; And He sped upon the wings of the wind. 11 He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies. 12 From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds, Hailstones and coals of fire. (Psalms 18:9-12)

Isaiah speaks of the Assyrian conquest of Egypt using the same "cloud coming" language:
The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isaiah 19:1)

We know from chapter 20 that God used the Assyrians as instruments of His wrath on Egypt, yet it says, "The LORD is riding on a swift cloud...Egypt will tremble at His presence." God came to Egypt in judgment. His presence was made known in judgment. But it was the Assyrians who were literally present. Similar language is used of Nineveh's fall:

The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And the LORD will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. In whirlwind and storm is His way, And clouds are the dust beneath His feet. (Nahum 1:3)
Mountains quake because of Him, And the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, The world and all the inhabitants in it. 6 Who can stand before His indignation? Who can endure the burning of His anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, And the rocks are broken up by Him. (Nahum 1:5-6)
We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of God out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in 612 B.C.

Why is it then that you, Alabaster, (or any of you other hyper literlaists here) so easily accept the metaphore of God "coming on the clouds... seen by the eyes of all nations" in the OT, yet reject that same interpratation of the same language when you find it int he NT??

You must have some sort of Biblical instruction to interprate "God rides a swift cloud... and was seen by the eyes of all nations" in polar opposite fashion to "He is coming on the clouds and every eye will see"

What is it?

 

[parousia70]

only the Father knows the appointed time of the end, and no one else.

Would you say the Glorified Christ is still ignorant of the appointed time, or does He know now too?

Prophecies are conditional.

All of them?

Therefore, the second coming of Christ, which would have occurred in the first century had the nations failed to repent, was postponed, along with the resurrection.

This one really needs a new thread.
The Idea that the timing of the parousia of Christ is conditional upon the actions of men is nowhere taught in the scriptures.

Acts 17:30-31
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Tell me Osgil, when paul spoke of this "appointed day", was he speaking of the postponed day or the original 1st century day you mentioned? And where does paul say the timing of that day is conditional upon the actions of his audience?

Boy, you Dispys with your parenthetical, unprophesied, last minute "Church Age" are really unbelievable.

 

[parousia70]

The Jews rejected the sign of Jonah, whereas the Gentiles repented and accepted it.

But in Christ's Generation, Thousands of Jews accepted and repented.
And Millions of Gentiles Rejected it.

How does that fact square with your theory?

 

[Osgiliath]

I’ll be a nice guy and let you go back to see where you erred before I respond. ;)

 

[researcher]

The Millennial Kingdom is on Earth, called the new Earth. It will happen and you will see. you see, I happen to read and understand Scripture.

He is coming back to reign for a mere 1000 years. We will serve Him and reign with Him.

Revelation 20:
4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.



The Kingdom of God comes down after final Judgment. We will live with God in the New Jerusalem forever.

Hey, it's in Revelation 21:
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.â€Â

Where does Rev. 20 say that the thrones are on earth? John was seeing a vision.

Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee; what then shall we have?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Apostles got to sit on thrones and Judge Israel.

And New Jerusalem is not a literal city coming out of the sky. NJ is the bride, i.e. believers

Rev 21:9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

And when does the "Bride" come down out of heaven?

After the millennium - Rev 20:7 - 21:10

 

[parousia70]

I’ll be a nice guy and let you go back to see where you erred before I respond. ;)

No doubt, you are one of the nicest guys I've met in any online eschatology discussion Osgil

But the error is squarly yours.

 

[Vic C.]

You said:

But in Christ's Generation, Thousands of Jews accepted and repented.
And Millions of Gentiles Rejected it.

How does that fact square with your theory?

No Gentile was offered the Gospel during the life of Jesus, therefore no Gentile could have rejected it. :yes

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
No doubt, you are one of the nicest guys I've met in any online eschatology discussion Osgil

I hope you were being sarcastic, or I’d take that as an insult .

Just read all of the Scripture references I provided concerning the Gospel and the Gentiles. Also, I should have been more specific about prophecies and conditions. Of course; not ALL prophecies are conditional. The prophecies I was referring to are within the very subject I was addressing; the sign of Jonah. You’re missing the enormous significance of this, which is why I spent so much time listing all of those verses - read them.