What did God originally intend Christianity to be?

[Jesse Stone]

john darling,

I'm trying to understand how that fits with your earlier comments about God not being finished with the Jews. Did you mean "not finished" in the sense that he's hoping they will come to accept Jesus, or not finished in the sense of them still having some special role to play specifically as Jews?

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:9-21)

John was a Jew, recording what a Jew said to a Jew.

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:19-26)

Salvation is of the Jews, as is the Messiah.

1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Romans 3:1-3)

The purpose of the Jew. Oracles of God. The Jews were supposed to disseminate the word of the true God to the world that he had a way to save the world. Instead they fought and held a bias against the Gentile.

The only role the Jews have today (or in the future if one thinks as a futurist) is the same one the Gentiles have. The same one that the Jews had in the 1st century after their Messiah came. Believe into Christ. The Apostles were all Jews. So that in a way, the word still went out to the world by way of the Jews, through the Apostles.

To the Jews there are Jews and Gentiles. To Christians there are Jews, Christians, and everybody else. Most Christians think that modern Israel is in some way the continuation of the Israel described in the OT, some having built an entire interpretive schema around that idea. Against the thinking of Paul (Gal 6:15-16). To the everybody else, depends on their philosophies and religions.

To God there is only in Christ and not in Christ. In Christ, there is no longer Jew nor Greek (the highest thinking form of Gentile) (Gal 3:26-29). Gentile being grafted into the same root as the Jews who were the original chosen people of God (Rom 11). Man has had a hard time keeping in step with God since the fall.

It's only reasonable to assume that this same God, who wants all (no distinction made between the Jews and Gentiles; or Christians and Calvinists for that matter) to be saved (1 Tim 2:1-8), would also want all (including Jews, not because they're special, rather because they are in Adam like everyone else) to be in Christ, in the new creation in Christ.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Rollo Tamasi

Rollo Tamasi said:
Christianity exists to draw men to Christ.

17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17:17-23 KJV)

(Edited for mis-stating the rules of these forums. Obadiah)

God became man for no other purpose. John 3:16-17

For no other purpose than what?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Rollo Tamasi





(Edited for mis-stating the rules of these forums. Obadiah)



For no other purpose than what?

Then to draw mankind to himself.

 

[Malachi]

Ok so it's a church?show me a statement by Jesus that says when I come back I'm setting up another church called Isreal. The new way is better then the cross? I don't see that.if Isreal is reconciling the world to YHWH?what is the way back?

Getting back to the OP, God did not originally start with "Christianity". He started with the Kingdom of God and He will finish with the Kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Today the Kingdom of God is not visible on earth, since it is within the hearts of genuine believers -- the Church (regenerated Jews and Gentiles in one Body regardless of denomination or affiliation). But there will come a time when the Kingdom of God is literally and physically established on earth.

(Edited, failure to follow A&T Guidelines: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Getting back to the OP, God did not originally start with "Christianity". He started with the Kingdom of God and He will finish with the Kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:24-28).

Today the Kingdom of God is not visible on earth, since it is within the hearts of genuine believers -- the Church (regenerated Jews and Gentiles in one Body regardless of denomination or affiliation). But there will come a time when the Kingdom of God is literally and physically established on earth.

(Edited, failure to follow A&T Guidelines: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)

I hope you enjoy your kingdom.
Now, about Christianity, the OP?...

 

[Malachi]

I hope you enjoy your kingdom.
Now, about Christianity, the OP?...

You won't find the word "Christianity" in Scripture, but you will find umpteen references to the Kingdom of God. Please note:

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Dan 2:44)

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed...And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.(Dan 7:13,14,27)

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Pet 1:10,11).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You won't find the word "Christianity" in Scripture, but you will find umpteen references to the Kingdom of God. Please note:

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Dan 2:44)

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed...And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.(Dan 7:13,14,27)

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Pet 1:10,11).

So what are you trying to say?
That you know how to talk about the Kingdom of God?
What of it?
Or are you trying to say you don't know how to talk about Christianity?
I don't know where you are coming from or where you are going with this?

 

[Jesse Stone]

Rollo Tomasi,

Jesse Stone asked: For no other purpose than what?

Rollo Tomasi replied: Then to draw mankind to himself.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:13-18 KJV)

The purpose of Christ being sent is many-fold. One of which is to save those who believe into him.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Eph 2:11-18)

Another aspect of why the Son was sent. To break down the enmity in Adam between Jew and Gentile creating a new man in Christ.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1John 3:8 KJV)

Another aspect of why the Son was sent. To destroy the works of the devil.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5:17-20 KJV)

Two more aspects of why the Son was sent. To fulfill the law. The Tabernacle Ritual part of the Law in particular (Hebrews). And by keeping the Law perfectly, which no one has done before or since (Heb 4:15 & 1 John 3:4).

In Passing. Not an excuse to abrogate the Law and create one's own Law, a common practice in Christianity. The Tabernacle Ritual is no longer expressed because the one whom the Ritual is about has come (Hebrews). Even the Jews have been kept from observing that Ritual since the 1st century. The new Ritual for the one who is in Christ is the Lord's Table with Christ (Luke 22:14-20; 1 Cor 10-11). Having a knowledge of the Tabernacle Ritual and the Passover (another Ritual not participated in by those who are in Christ because it's fulfilled in the blood Christ, the lamb of God) is a help to understanding the Lord's Table.

Just off the top of my head. There are other aspects to why the Son of God was sent.

But in keeping with the OP of this thread: Each denomination of Christianity draws men to itself. A far cry from drawing men to Christ. Not what God would intend for an expression in keeping with his own purpose. That is, if the purpose of Christ and Paul in this regard are in line with the purpose of God in Christ (John 17:17-23; Eph 1-3, 4:1-6).

 

[Chopper]

I have a simple but direct answer to your OP.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love.

There is your answer. Holy and blameless before Him in love.

 

[Malachi]

So what are you trying to say?

Rollo,
It is really quite simple. The question was "What did God originally intend Christianity to be?". And the answer is that Bible Christianity was originally intended to be the first step into the eternal Kingdom of God. That's why you do not find the word "Christianity" (or its equivalent in the Bible). That's why Peter talks about "entrance" into the everlasting Kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is however called "the Way" in the NT (Acts 24:14) which the Jews called "heresy", but we call "Christianity".

 

[Chopper]

Hi Malachi. I agree with your statement, very good. I'm not picking apart what you said, so I'd like to point out three places in the Bible where Christianity, or it's equivalent, is found, contrary to this statement of yours...."That's why you do not find the word "Christianity" (or its equivalent in the Bible)."

Acts 11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Sometimes my mind is to exact, sorry.

 

[Malachi]

Sometimes my mind is to exact, sorry.

You are correct. The "Christ-Ones" (disciples of Christ) are called "Christians" but "Christianity" is not the movement that is mentioned in Scripture. Judaism is called "the Jews religion" by Paul (Gal 1:13,14), but as to his own preaching and teaching we find "the Kingdom of God" presented again and again.

And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. (Acts 19:8)

And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. (Acts 20:25)

 

[Chopper]

You are correct. The "Christ-Ones" (disciples of Christ) are called "Christians" but "Christianity" is not the movement that is mentioned in Scripture. Judaism is called "the Jews religion" by Paul (Gal 1:13,14), but as to his own preaching and teaching we find "the Kingdom of God" presented again and again.

And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. (Acts 19:8)

And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. (Acts 20:25)

Agreed my friend! I see your point and you are absolutely right. Actually, I like the "Kingdom of God" so much more than Christianity because of those who claim to be Christians, IMO walk the broad way instead of the narrow way which leads to the Kingdom and the King Eternal.

The only reason that I responded was this statement of yours, "or it's equivalent".

 

[Sinthesis]

I wonder about the logic here. Paul seemed to go through something similar. He said, "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ." (Phil 3:8). In the previous verses he listed all the amazing qualifications for being a top-rate Jew; no one could question his loyalty to Judaic laws and traditions. And yet, he doesn't argue for holding on to some of that (like the name) for the sake of making other Jews feel comfortable about converting. He says he counts it all as dung, in favor of something much better; his Christianity.

Otherwise, should we argue that converted atheists refer to themselves as Messianic atheists in the "work to convert" atheists to Christianity? They may give testimony about how they used to be atheists, but that's different from insisting they should be referred to as messianic atheists. The same could be said for any convert; messianic Buddhist, messianic Hindu, Messianic Pagan etc...

If you really are a "new creature" in Christ, why hold on to the old name?

Jhn 1:45 - Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.​

Jews were promised a Messiah all throughout the OT, so a Messianic Jew is one who has found and accepted Jesus as the Messiah they were promised. I don't know that atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, or Pagans can point to any scripture they consider sacred as describing a future savior whose promise is fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Edward]

(Post deleted for not complying with A&T guidelines: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies", and "Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture." Obadiah)

 

[th1b.taylor]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Agreed my friend! I see your point and you are absolutely right. Actually, I like the "Kingdom of God" so much more than Christianity because of those who claim to be Christians, IMO walk the broad way instead of the narrow way which leads to the Kingdom and the King Eternal.

The only reason that I responded was this statement of yours, "or it's equivalent".

It seems as though some people want to eliminate the word Christianity from Christianity.
It is what it is, if the world thinks otherwise, that's their problem.

If we can't talk about Christianity together, then what kind of religion do we have?
We have Christianity people, Kingdom of God people, Jewish Messiah people, what else?
If we can't agree on what we call ourselves, then how can we agree on anything else?

 

[Malachi]

(Post removed, refusal to follow A&T guidelines and refusal to follow moderator's requests. Obadiah.)

 

[john darling]

(Post removed for not following A&T guidelines requiring the use and reference of scripture to back points being made, and for failing to follow a moderator's request to rectify this. Obadiah)

 

[th1b.taylor]

(Post removed for not following A&T guidelines requiring the use and reference of scripture to back points being made, and for failing to follow a moderator's request to rectify this. Obadiah)

Hmmm! On this forum site there are at least two with Jewish background and one of them was raised Jewish. I was an atheist and I am now am a Christian. On the other hand the other man I speak of was raised by very Jewish parents, it seems and knows much more of that religion than I ever will. He is a Messianic Jew, also known as a Completed Jew.

In the case of any atheist, the moment they, like I, believe, they can no longer be an Atheist but being Jewish is not just a religion, it is an entire linage and to the Jews linage is critical. Christianity was born out of that linage and the first Jewish Saint, Abraham, is saved because of his faith, just as is any Christian. And in Romans 11:17 we learn from Paul that the convert, known as a Christian, is grafted into the Jewish Family and in no manner the other way. around.