What did Jesus tell us to do, and are we doing it?

[Free]

Hi Free. I didn't give any meaning to those teachings. They are posted as quotes from Jesus. I think what I'm asking for is for other people to view the list and share their own personal conclusions as to what these teachings mean for them. So I hope you don't mind if I ask you, what do you think Jesus meant by points 5, 6, 7, 10, 28, and 32?

That is what I am asking you. I want to address the points you have given but I cannot until I know what you think they mean.

 

[Abigail123]

Hi Abigail. Thanks for posting. All of these points I agree with. We should read the word and listen to his voice. Jesus' teachings are not just a check list. Our relationships grow and develop over time. We become more like the father as a result of our fruit in obediece etc.

What I'm asking is, what do you think about obedience to the teachings of Jesus. Like, actually doing them? I posted the list in the OP to give some examples. Do you see anything there which you feel okay about doing? Do you see anything which is particularly challenging? It's not a trick question or anything. We have agreement that obedience is necessary so I'd like to talk about what it is that we are meant to obey and how we are meant to apply those teachings.

I don't want to skirt around your response to me, but I can not help but know that when Jesus was asked, "What is the greatest commandment?" He said:
Matthew 22:38-39 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord Your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

We can "do and obey" all day in all the other areas, but if we do not have love, then it's of no use. It is as a non believer trying to gain their own self righteousness.

Even Paul said - 1 Cor 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

The list you've listed can be done by anyone, even non believers, but true agape can only be done by believers.

 

[Brother Mike]

There's only been one case where I've prayed for someone (along with other believers) to be delivered from what we thought to be some kind of demonic influence and had it work. If I experience another case of someone with such an influence, I'd be fine to lay hands on them and pray. As for healing the sick, I've never experienced a miraculous healing. I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm sure God does heal people. I've just never experiened it as a result of my praying. I have, however, experienced heaps of abuses with miraculous healing; people claiming they've been healed when they really haven't, presuming such a claim shows great faith etc.

Somehow lying about a healing has become a sign of great faith, which is probably why Jesus said not to advertise healings. I speak in tongues. I've never taken up a serpent but then again I can't see that the teaching is a command to tempt danger by handling serpents (Acts 28:3). If I've ever drunk any deadly thing I wouldn't know it since I'm still alive.

I think there are some things we can work with here. Why are you around people that lie about healing? I am sort of concerned about who your hanging around, and why you even care who is lying? Jesus did not say don't advertise healing, He did that to keep the pharisee's from causing issues as He healed on the Sabbath at times, read through the context again. In John He said at least believe him for the Works sake, and to believe on the miracles.
Since you speak in tongues, then there is more than enough power in you to change any situation for anyone. Where you go, God goes, where God is at, there is power to help the people. You will see healing a whole lot more working with non-Christians and getting away from the religious junk in churches.

You still have to consider some of your points, like don't work for food. That is not what Jesus was saying. Paul said a man does not eat if He don't work, so all the scripture must go together.

taking up serpents......... No, that has nothing to do with snakes. Authority against ruler forces in an area, or take up position against.
Just think of it as the light you have, the power of God you have, and where your at, devils don't like it.

Healing is easy though, and I was drawn to Tom Fischer when I saw him on Youtube because he acts like me. So, I tracked him down as He lives in NJ and he responded back and added me as a friend on Google+ I would love to go out and minister with this guy. Look at what He does, and how he presents Jesus.

People who are not saved, and not faking Healing. The real stuff.

 

[Obadiah]

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[childeye]

(Post removed, failure to follow A&T guidelines. Citing an entire chapter does not fulfill the scripture requirement unless you show how every verse in that chapter directly supports your point. Please be more specific. Obadiah.)

 

[john darling]

You still have to consider some of your points, like don't work for food. That is not what Jesus was saying.

Hi BM. You say Jesus didn't say "don't work for food" but you didn't post any scriptural support for that. I can see evidence that he did, indeed, teach people not to work for food (John 6:27, Matthew 6:31-33). He taught us not to work for clothing (Matthew 6:28-30). He taught that we should not work for any material purpose (Matthew 6:24). "Mammon" is a term used to describe money and the things money can buy. Our motivation for working should be for love.

Paul said a man does not eat if He don't work, so all the scripture must go together.

Yeah, we definitely need to work, though I think it is a mistake to assume that any mention of "work" in the Bible necessarily means "work for money". I think this is a pretty good indication of the problem Jesus was addressing when we make such assumptions. A good many people in the world honestly believe they would die if they did not work for money. It's simply not true. The current monetary system is one we've made for ourselves by choice. Money doesn't make food grow or create the things we need. God does all that. Money never made anything. People do the work of building shelters and sewing clothing and all the other various things we need. They could still do all that without money being involved, if they chose to. Jesus' teachings are about encouraging people to make those kinds of choices; to work for one another just because we want to and not because we are fearful or greedy. This is the essence of loving our neighbor.

Anyway, back to Paul's teaching. Remember that he was writing to the Christian community in Thessilonica. With all the emphasis on community and sharing it would be tempting for people to think they could use the church for a free ride. The teaching is a practical rule to protect against lazy bludgers coming into the community thinking everyone else will take care of them (2 Thess 3:10).

 

[john darling]

That is what I am asking you. I want to address the points you have given but I cannot until I know what you think they mean.

Hi Free. I think the teachings mean exactly what they say. My purpose in posting them was to get some discussion going about obedience to these teachings. My thoughts on the teachings are that we Christians should at least be trying to apply them.

I'm suggesting that, by Jesus giving these teachings as commands, they are more than just helpful advice which we, as individuals, may or may not feel called to practice. He exptected that anyone who would want to follow him would act on these teachings and that not obeying them could amount to being ashamed of Jesus (Luke 9:26). I'm not saying this towards anyone; I don't want this to be about anyone personally. I only bring it up because it relates to the topic, to illustrate how serious Jesus was about obedience.

Jesus compared his teachings to a cornerstone (an instrument used for accurate measurements). He said if we fall on this stone we will be broken. This is what it often feels like as we confront our emotional attachments, our greed, self righteousness, hypocrisy, our fears etc; we learn just how painful it can be to change. We become broken so that God can put us back together again into new creations (psalm 51:17, John 3:3). However, he said that if we do not do that, the stone will fall on us and crush us completely (Matthew 21:44).

All throughout the gospels Jesus talks about the importance of hearing him, listening to him, and acting on his teachings. He said, "my words will judge you" (John 12:48). The sheep follow his voice (John 10:3). He said that people considering following him should count the cost, first, because he will ask for everything (Luke 14:28-33).

So, regarding the list of commands I posted, this is what I mean. What are your thoughts on that list?

 

[john darling]

I don't want to skirt around your response to me, but I can not help but know that when Jesus was asked, "What is the greatest commandment?" He said:
Matthew 22:38-39 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord Your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Hi Abigail. I don't think the teachings are in competition one with the other. The two greatest are to love God and to love our neighbor. All the other instructions Jesus gave teach us HOW to show that love in the way God wants us to.

We can "do and obey" all day in all the other areas, but if we do not have love, then it's of no use. It is as a non believer trying to gain their own self righteousness.

I appreciate what you are saying, but the topic is not about how one command makes the others obsolete (I'm not sure if I've understood you correctly on that so please feel free to clarify if I've got you wrong).

What do you think about the teachings I posted in that initial list? Those are actual teachings from Jesus himself; teachings which are given with the expectation that they will be obeyed on the basis that Jesus is the word of God and has the authority to expect obedience from his followers (Rev 19:13, Luke 9:35).

I realize that may sound rather hard, but it's a truth any disciple needs to face. The word "disciple" itself literally means one who is disciplined. God is a God of love, for sure, but before he is a loving God he is a sovereign God (Gen 6:5-7). He spent the first 4000 years of human history teaching that lesson. He won't care about all our talk of love if we're using it to side-step his discipline, because the two go hand-in-hand (Matthew 15:8).

We can see this principle at work in practical life. I think any couple in a lasting marriage will tell you that talk of love ins't enough to make a marriage work. It takes a lot of discpline, faithfulness, sacrifice, apologies and humility. It's like that in our relationship with God. If we are not willing to obey, then what good is our talk of love (John 14:21)?

This is the concept Jesus himself applied to obedience to his teachings, and the same concept which I am hoping to discuss here. I'd like this thread to be devoted to getting into the juicy meat of what it means to obey Jesus.

I look forward to your response.

 

[Sinthesis]

I'm creating this thread as a result of an ongoing discussion about doing the works of God. In that discussion it seemed there was no disagreement about the need to obey Jesus so it got me wondering if there should be more to the discussion. Like, if we agree that it's necessary to obey, then the next step seems to be to discuss what it is that we are meant to obey.

In luke 6:46 Jesus asks, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' but do not obey me"? I don't want to set an unecessarily negative tone to the discussion by starting with this teaching. I bring it up because it sets a context. Jesus' teachings were radical, life changing and extreme. In many cases he felt a need to give his teachings in the form of a command, probably because he knew that we would be slow to just naturally recognize the need to apply his teachings. When it comes to change we often react in fear, anger, or generally find some way to avoid it.

I'm also talking about teachings which express general spiritual guidelines. God may tell 5 different Christains to preach in 5 different ways, but he still expects them to preach. He may tell them to go to 5 different places, but he still expects them to go etc. These are teachings which represent the foundation of the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. They apply to anyone who would follow Jesus. God may lead us to express them in different ways, but untimately they do need to be obeyed.

I'll post a list of example teachings which are given as commands (i.e. Jesus expected us to do them). What do you all think about this list? Is there any teaching in particular which anyone feels up to discussing?

1. Obey my commandments - John 14:15, John 14:21, John 14:23; 2 John 6

2. Love God and others - John 15:12, Matthew 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - John 4:35, John 9:4, John 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4

6. Don't work for food - John 6:27, Matthew 6:24-33, Luke 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Matthew 11:28-30, Luke 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41, Luke 12:33, Luke 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Matthew 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Luke 20:25, Matthew 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Matthew 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Luke 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Luke 6:30, Mark 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Matthew 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Matthew 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Matthew 9:30, Matthew 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Luke 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Matthew 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Luke 12:1, 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mark 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - John 15:4, 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Luke 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Luke 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Matthew 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Luke 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Luke 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Luke 12:58, Matthew 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mark 11:25-26, Matthew 6:12, Luke 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mark 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Luke 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Matthew 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Luke 17:3, Matthew 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - John 7:24

35. You must be born again- John 3:3, Luke 18:17, Mark 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Matthew 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - John 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Luke 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Matthew 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10

It seems to me that 39 of the examples on your list are just contextual extrapolations of your number 2. They are not universal commandments on their own.

Mat 22:36 - Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 - Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 - This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 - And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 - On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
​

We don't need a comprehensive list of commandments because as, indwelt Christians, the Holy Spirit directs us in the contextually appropriate application of the principles held in the first and second great commandments.

 

[Abigail123]

Hi Abigail. I don't think the teachings are in competition one with the other. The two greatest are to love God and to love our neighbor. All the other instructions Jesus gave teach us HOW to show that love in the way God wants us to.



I appreciate what you are saying, but the topic is not about how one command makes the others obsolete (I'm not sure if I've understood you correctly on that so please feel free to clarify if I've got you wrong).

What do you think about the teachings I posted in that initial list? Those are actual teachings from Jesus himself; teachings which are given with the expectation that they will be obeyed on the basis that Jesus is the word of God and has the authority to expect obedience from his followers (Rev 19:13, Luke 9:35).

I realize that may sound rather hard, but it's a truth any disciple needs to face. The word "disciple" itself literally means one who is disciplined. God is a God of love, for sure, but before he is a loving God he is a sovereign God (Gen 6:5-7). He spent the first 4000 years of human history teaching that lesson. He won't care about all our talk of love if we're using it to side-step his discipline, because the two go hand-in-hand (Matthew 15:8).

We can see this principle at work in practical life. I think any couple in a lasting marriage will tell you that talk of love ins't enough to make a marriage work. It takes a lot of discpline, faithfulness, sacrifice, apologies and humility. It's like that in our relationship with God. If we are not willing to obey, then what good is our talk of love (John 14:21)?

This is the concept Jesus himself applied to obedience to his teachings, and the same concept which I am hoping to discuss here. I'd like this thread to be devoted to getting into the juicy meat of what it means to obey Jesus.

I look forward to your response.

The concept Jesus Himself applied in obedience is love, this has already been shown.

Sinthesis can also see the greatest commandment is love in Matthew 22:36, after all, Jesus Himelf (Rev 19:13, Luke 9:35) said this. We can take the one premise out of those 2 greatest commandments "love" and apply them everywhere.

It's extremely difficult to break any command when we are loving the Lord and loving others.

You have cherry picked the NT in order to make it appear believers must follow a list, we don't, we follow Christ. Christ is the teacher and as we follow Him we become like Him.

Luke 6:40 The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi BM. You say Jesus didn't say "don't work for food" but you didn't post any scriptural support for that. I can see evidence that he did, indeed, teach people not to work for food (John 6:27, Matthew 6:31-33). He taught us not to work for clothing (Matthew 6:28-30). He taught that we should not work for any material purpose (Matthew 6:24). "Mammon" is a term used to describe money and the things money can buy. Our motivation for working should be for love.
Yeah, we definitely need to work, though I think it is a mistake to assume that any mention of "work" in the Bible necessarily means "work for money". I think this is a pretty good indication of the problem Jesus was addressing when we make such assumptions. A good many people in the world honestly believe they would die if they did not work for money. (2 Thess 3:10).

Ecc_2:24 There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God.
Ecc_3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

Jesus is not saying don't work for money, in fact his Parable about the workers gathered and promised to get paid a certain money wage shows this, and He told us render unto the government what belongs to them, and us to God what belongs to him. You need cold hard cash today to do those things, and money translates into food, clothes, houses, cars and anything else we need it translated into.

Jesus also said make friends of unrighteous mammon, so that means we need to know how it works, how to get it, and how to distribute it.

I could care less how other people view money, what the World thinks about it, but when we have it, people get blessed.

Jesus said take no thought about what you should wear, eat, where to live, God supplies our needs. We better be making money and putting it into the Kingdom though.

you disregarded my video and message about healing. Guess what? Doctors will want your money to help you, they are not on a system of God supplies their needs.

This almost sounds like a compound mentality. I was asked to help start and run one of those once. It sounds good, but they don't work.

Mike.

 

[Free]

Hi Free. I think the teachings mean exactly what they say. My purpose in posting them was to get some discussion going about obedience to these teachings. My thoughts on the teachings are that we Christians should at least be trying to apply them.

I'm suggesting that, by Jesus giving these teachings as commands, they are more than just helpful advice which we, as individuals, may or may not feel called to practice. He exptected that anyone who would want to follow him would act on these teachings and that not obeying them could amount to being ashamed of Jesus (Luke 9:26). I'm not saying this towards anyone; I don't want this to be about anyone personally. I only bring it up because it relates to the topic, to illustrate how serious Jesus was about obedience.

Jesus compared his teachings to a cornerstone (an instrument used for accurate measurements). He said if we fall on this stone we will be broken. This is what it often feels like as we confront our emotional attachments, our greed, self righteousness, hypocrisy, our fears etc; we learn just how painful it can be to change. We become broken so that God can put us back together again into new creations (psalm 51:17, John 3:3). However, he said that if we do not do that, the stone will fall on us and crush us completely (Matthew 21:44).

All throughout the gospels Jesus talks about the importance of hearing him, listening to him, and acting on his teachings. He said, "my words will judge you" (John 12:48). The sheep follow his voice (John 10:3). He said that people considering following him should count the cost, first, because he will ask for everything (Luke 14:28-33).

So, regarding the list of commands I posted, this is what I mean. What are your thoughts on that list?

The problem is that some of them are taken out of context and do not mean what you make them out to mean, and others were meant only for those who Jesus was talking to at that time. We simply cannot just take anything we want out of Scripture as though it applies to us.

Not mention your wanting others to "share their own personal conclusions as to what these teachings mean for them," is highly problematic. The passages you cited mean what they mean, there is no different meaning for each individual. That's a worldly, post-modern approach to Scripture.

 

[john darling]

The problem is that some of them are taken out of context and do not mean what you make them out to mean,

Well. I'm in a quandry. You're a moderator and you've posted an opposing reponse to my scriptural references but you've not included your own scriptural support to show how these teachings were taken out of context. Can you provide some examples?

others were meant only for those who Jesus was talking to at that time.

Can you give any scriptural evidence or example to clarify what you mean? Which teachings are you referring to?

We simply cannot just take anything we want out of Scripture as though it applies to us.

I don't think I've taken "just anything I want". I've listed teachings which are specifically given as commands to anyone who would follow Jesus. Otherwise, I really do think the onus is on you to show how these teachings are not meant for the followers of Jesus.

For example, 3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19. Is it your understanding that some Christains are not called on to preach the gospel? If so can you post some scriptural evidence for that? Or, 9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19. Are you suggesting that some Christians should be allowed to store things they are not using? Can you provide some evidence from Jesus for this?

Not mention your wanting others to "share their own personal conclusions as to what these teachings mean for them," is highly problematic. The passages you cited mean what they mean, there is no different meaning for each individual.

Something strange is happening here; a kind of irrational logic which I think is a result of the topic. You earlier said the teachings I posted (or at least some of them) were only meant for some individuals, but then, when I ask for individuals to comment on what these teachings mean to them in the context of obedience, you say there "is no different meaning for each individual". It's like you want to distance yourself from the teachings which you do not feel should personally relate to you while at the same time take the high moral ground that individuals should not be free to pick and choose what they want from the Bible. If I've misunderstood you, please do let me know.

 

[john darling]

his Parable about the workers gathered and promised to get paid a certain money wage shows this

With parables, they are very much used as a way of getting people to see what they want to see (Matthew 13:13-15). People who want to see the truth will see it. People who want to see some convenient doctrine will see it. In your case, you have a theology which says God wants us to be monetarily rich. Please correct me if I've misunderstood your stance, but I'm fairly sure I've seen you saying things like "God not only wants us to be rich, but he is indebted to us to give us material wealth".

In the case where someone is intersted in material wealth, they will see the lesson of the parable as justification for seeking after that wealth. For those who are intersted in serving God, they will see a lesson about the need to work hard and not be lazy. We are called on to bear much fruit, not hide our abilities, skills and time in the ground for fear of failure or whatever others may think of us.

He told us render unto the government what belongs to them, and us to God what belongs to him

Same here. It's a teaching designed to allow people to see what they want to see. The context is that the people asking Jesus the question about paying taxes to Caeser were not genuinely seeking God's will. They were trying to trap him (Luke 20:21-23). In other words, Jesus' answer not only avoids the trap, but also puts the burden back on to them to choose between God and money. The trick to the answer is this; after we have given to God what belongs to him, what is left for Caesar?

But, again, for those who are interested in money, they will not think about what belongs to God. They will see a conveneint doctrine to support their own personal desires.

Jesus said take no thought about what you should wear, eat, where to live, God supplies our needs. We better be making money and putting it into the Kingdom though.

It's intersting that you do not see any contradiction between the two sentences here. One is a teaching from Jesus. The other is your interpretation. Jesus says don't allow worry for material things stop you from working for God's kingdom of Love" and you interpret that as, "we better be making money and putting it into the kingdom". Can you give even a shred of evidence from Jesus where he wanted his followers to be making money?

What's even more interesting is that Jesus did clearly say quite the opposite. Mt 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon".

"Mammon" is a term used to describe money and the things money can by. Jesus says we cannnot work for both at the same time without cheating on one or the other. But with all these teachings we have the freedom to see what we want to see. That freedom does not make us right in what we see, but it does exist. This is partly why it's good to discuss what it means to obey Jesus; so many different meanings have crept into the church that it's good to get back to basics of simple obedience.

 

[Brother Mike]

With parables, they are very much used as a way of getting people to see what they want to see (Matthew 13:13-15). People who want to see the truth will see it. People who want to see some convenient doctrine will see it. In your case, you have a theology which says God wants us to be monetarily rich. Please correct me if I've misunderstood your stance, but I'm fairly sure I've seen you saying things like "God not only wants us to be rich, but he is indebted to us to give us material wealth".

Same here. It's a teaching designed to allow people to see what they want to see. The context is that the people asking Jesus the question about paying taxes to Caeser were not genuinely seeking God's will. They were trying to trap him (Luke 20:21-23). In other words, Jesus' answer not only avoids the trap, but also puts the burden back on to them to choose between God and money. The trick to the answer is this; after we have given to God what belongs to him, what is left for Caesar?
.

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
(Mat 20:1-2)
For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
(Mat 25:14-18)
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
(Luk 16:8-11)

When Jesus says become friends with unrighteous mammon, tells a parable about investing, and using your money wisely, and talks about working in a field for a penny, it should be a strong indication that we should be working and gaining money. Somewhere your mixing up working for money, gaining money with putting money first.

That is like saying I should not be eating food, because that is making food first.

But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
(Deu 8:18)

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
(Psa 112:1-3)

We are told God gives power to get wealth, and wealth and riches shall be in our house. That wealth does not come from sitting around and just saying God makes me wealthy. He gives ability to make the money, and He multiplies our seed sown.

Once again, are you thinking about a compound type way of living?

Mike.

 

[Free]

Can you give any scriptural evidence or example to clarify what you mean? Which teachings are you referring to?



I don't think I've taken "just anything I want". I've listed teachings which are specifically given as commands to anyone who would follow Jesus. Otherwise, I really do think the onus is on you to show how these teachings are not meant for the followers of Jesus.

For example, 3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19. Is it your understanding that some Christains are not called on to preach the gospel? If so can you post some scriptural evidence for that? Or, 9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19. Are you suggesting that some Christians should be allowed to store things they are not using? Can you provide some evidence from Jesus for this?

As for examples:

"5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4"
These were addressed to certain disciples, at those specific times only, and are in no way commands for all followers of Jesus.

"6. Don't work for food - John 6:27, Matthew 6:24-33, Luke 12:29"
The contexts of Matt 6:24-33 and Luke 12:29 have to do with worrying--we are not to worry about such things but in no way whatsoever does it mean that we are not to work for food.

Taking John 6:27 in context, we can see that Jesus has just fed over five thousand people, with fish and bread. At some point in the evening, Jesus left and went to the Capernaum. The next day when the crowd realized that Jesus wasn't there, they went to Capernaum, seeking more bread, seeking physical supply, instead of him, which the miracle of his feeding them pointed:

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.

They had labored to get to Capernaum for physical bread but Jesus said they should be laboring for him. And he goes on at length to show that he is the true bread "that endures to eternal life."

You have taken these passages out of context. Not only is there no command in all of Scripture that we are not to work for food, we have commands that we are to do so:

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
2Th 3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. (ESV)

We have Paul telling us to keep away from anyone who is idle, who is not working. He says that we are to imitate him and those with him by working to make money so that we can pay for our food. To not do so creates a burden on others.

"8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41, Luke 12:33, Luke 18:22"

Luke 11:41 does not at all suggest to "sell all that you own." That would be based on a poor translation. Better is the ESV: "But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you." The context is that of the outside compared to the inside; outward appearances and what is really in the heart.

What we can be certain about regarding Luke 12:33 is it does not say to sell all one's possessions and that this is not for all followers. Again, context. In verse 16-21 Jesus tells the parable of the rich man who hoards all his possessions. This leads to his speech on not being anxious about things in this life in verses 22-31. What Jesus is speaking about is where one's heart is. To make this into a command for all followers to sell all they have would mean that the entire Church becomes a massive burden on society.

Instead, look to passages such as 1 Corinthians 16:1-3; 2 Corinthians 8:1-15, particularly notice 12-14; and 2 Corinthians 9:5-7.

"9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19"

As always, the context is important. Verse 21 is the conclusion of verses 19 and 20: "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (ESV). This is not at all a command to not "store things that you're not using," but, just as with the rich man in Luke 12, it is about not making things on earth one's treasure and so hoarding it and storing it up.

There are others I would address but as I stated previously, I need to know what meant by the "commands," since some of the "commands" that you claim the verses are speaking of just simply aren't there, such as 10, 32, and 36.

Something strange is happening here; a kind of irrational logic which I think is a result of the topic. You earlier said the teachings I posted (or at least some of them) were only meant for some individuals, but then, when I ask for individuals to comment on what these teachings mean to them in the context of obedience, you say there "is no different meaning for each individual". It's like you want to distance yourself from the teachings which you do not feel should personally relate to you while at the same time take the high moral ground that individuals should not be free to pick and choose what they want from the Bible. If I've misunderstood you, please do let me know.

Yes, you have misunderstood. I clearly stated that some of the verses you posted "were meant only for those who Jesus was talking to at that time." It's not they do not personally relate to me, it's that they are not at all commands for any follower of Christ. And, again, Scripture means what it says, and for those commands which are for all followers of Christ, there is no personal, individual meaning.

 

[Seabass]

I'm creating this thread as a result of an ongoing discussion about doing the works of God. In that discussion it seemed there was no disagreement about the need to obey Jesus so it got me wondering if there should be more to the discussion. Like, if we agree that it's necessary to obey, then the next step seems to be to discuss what it is that we are meant to obey.

In luke 6:46 Jesus asks, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' but do not obey me"? I don't want to set an unecessarily negative tone to the discussion by starting with this teaching. I bring it up because it sets a context. Jesus' teachings were radical, life changing and extreme. In many cases he felt a need to give his teachings in the form of a command, probably because he knew that we would be slow to just naturally recognize the need to apply his teachings. When it comes to change we often react in fear, anger, or generally find some way to avoid it.

I'm also talking about teachings which express general spiritual guidelines. God may tell 5 different Christains to preach in 5 different ways, but he still expects them to preach. He may tell them to go to 5 different places, but he still expects them to go etc. These are teachings which represent the foundation of the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. They apply to anyone who would follow Jesus. God may lead us to express them in different ways, but untimately they do need to be obeyed.

I'll post a list of example teachings which are given as commands (i.e. Jesus expected us to do them). What do you all think about this list? Is there any teaching in particular which anyone feels up to discussing?

1. Obey my commandments - John 14:15, John 14:21, John 14:23; 2 John 6

2. Love God and others - John 15:12, Matthew 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - John 4:35, John 9:4, John 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4

6. Don't work for food - John 6:27, Matthew 6:24-33, Luke 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Matthew 11:28-30, Luke 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41, Luke 12:33, Luke 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Matthew 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Luke 20:25, Matthew 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Matthew 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Luke 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Luke 6:30, Mark 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Matthew 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Matthew 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Matthew 9:30, Matthew 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Luke 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Matthew 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Luke 12:1, 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mark 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - John 15:4, 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Luke 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Luke 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Matthew 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Luke 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Luke 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Luke 12:58, Matthew 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mark 11:25-26, Matthew 6:12, Luke 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mark 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Luke 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Matthew 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Luke 17:3, Matthew 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - John 7:24

35. You must be born again- John 3:3, Luke 18:17, Mark 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Matthew 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - John 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Luke 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Matthew 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10

Along with Lk 6:46 there is also Heb 5:9 and Rev 2:26. I agree with the premise of your post but do not agree with all that you listed.
For example # 5 and #10, and a few others, were being addressed specifically to the apostles and not us today.
#6 is a figure of speech, an elliptical statement, for those that do not work for their food should not eat, 2 Thess 3:10
#30 is also a figure of speech, hyperbole.

 

[john darling]

These were addressed to certain disciples, at those specific times only, and are in no way commands for all followers of Jesus.

All of Jesus' words were addressed to "certain people" at "certain times". That doesn't make them invalid for us today. The argument is convenient, but certainly not logical. The disciples were taught to teach others what they themselves were taught, which includes those whom they teach also teaching others etc (Matthew 28:20). On what basis do you decide which teachings apply to you and which don't?

The contexts of Matt 6:24-33 and Luke 12:29 have to do with worrying--we are not to worry about such things but in no way whatsoever does it mean that we are not to work for food.

If there really was no worry, then there would be no problem with working for love as opposed to money (Matthew 6:33)

 

[john darling]

#6 is a figure of speech, an elliptical statement, for those that do not work for their food should not eat, 2 Thess 3:10

Paul doesn't say, "those who do not work for their food should not eat". It would make no sense for him to say that in the context of peopel who are already working for the purpose of buying food, because if they were not working they would, by default, not have the money to pay for the food.

However, what he said was "those who do not work, should not eat". It's quite different from the way you worded it. In your version, the subject is money, not the work. In Paul's version, the subject is work, not the food. This makes sense in the context of lazy people coming into the Christian community (which Paul was writing to) thinking others would take care of them. In a situation where everyone is working for love it would be tempting for some people to go in thinking they would get a free ride. But in a Christian community people should only be there to work for God, not as a place to be lazy.

Compare this to 1 Cor 9:7, 14. Paul talks about people who work in the community having the right to partake of the community's resources. There's nothing there about working for money or whatever, because they are working for love and sharing with one another what God provides. They are following the same model from Acts 2:44-46 and Acts 4:34-35.

This model is based on what Jesus and the disciples did (Luke 5:11, Luke 5:28, Luke 18:28). It's quite clear that Jesus did mean what he said and he meant it for anyone who would follow him, because even though these teachings are presented as commands, they are done so because they are some of the most basic concepts which the Kingdom of Heaven is based on.

We won't just naturally go against our fleshly desires so Jesus gave us commands to follow, to help us overcome our fears and anxieties. If we can't follow the teachings because we see the rightness of them, then we should at least follow because we've been told to follow by someone who knows better than us. Instead, we've created all these various doctrines to make even the commands of no effect.

 

[john darling]

Sinthesis can also see the greatest commandment is love in Matthew 22:36, after all, Jesus Himelf (Rev 19:13, Luke 9:35) said this. We can take the one premise out of those 2 greatest commandments "love" and apply them everywhere.

That there is a greatest command and a second like it was never in question. The point I'm making is that it is illogical to say that one command being the greatest negates the other commands which teach us how to keep those two greatest commands.