What do Calvinists really believe?

[Strangelove]

If God did not place ones sins on Christ to be propitiated for, then He does not Love one.

Now, Does God exercise providential care for the Non Elect, Yes He does because they are His creatures that He is preserving for a purpose.

But that is not His Love for them, because He has done nothing for their eternal well being.

5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you;

5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.​

 

[mlqurgw]

OK....another question for you :twopistolsCalvinist! What's the deal with Total Depravity of man?

I mean, I'm not the best person, but I'm not as bad as some. I'm not Hitler! How is it that man is totally depraved. Frankly I'm a little offended by the accusation! Explain yourselves. humfp

The doctrine of Total Depravity doesn't mean that all men are as bad as they could be but that the effect of sin has affected the totality of man's nature. The very statement that you aren't as bad as others proves you to be a liar. You know in your heart that every sin that man commits is in your heart. You just don't do it because you either fear getting caught by society or fear the punishment meeted out by society. Though you will not admit even to yourself that this is true it is and your conscience cannot deny it. Even the "good" that you do you do for the wrong reasons. The imagined good things you do you do because you want folks to think of you as a good person and pat you on the back. You and I and everyone else are sinners by nature and sinners by choice. Compared to the infinite goodness of God we are nothing but sin. Total depravity doesn't make you act on your depravity it only recognizes that even the best you think you are is evil in the sight of God.

 

[mlqurgw]

Ok Ok, but you took my statement in another direction slightly. Unbelievers are one thing, but can't a man of free will choose God, seek God and find? I mean if God does not give something to a man to woo him, can that man seek God out on his own and find him, or do you think he's simply so blinded as have a vial over him that is not lifted by God regardless of said man's efforts to see?

According to Paul in 1Cor. 2 the natural man cannot even see the thngs of the Spirit because they are foolishness to him. He not only can't see them but doesn't want to. The idea that a dead sinner might seek God in Christ but can't find Him is impossible. All who truly seek find and all who find believe. There is not one instance of a man coming to christ in the Scripture seeking mercy who didn't find it. Election doesn't keep any out who desire it election ensures that there will be some who desire it. Those who don't find aren't looking for it and want it that way. They gt exactly what they want.

 

[mlqurgw]

Then if man is totally depraved and God only accepts the rightiousness of Christ, and no man is this since he is totally depraved, (A filthy rags) how can he be counted righteous as Christ under the Calvin doctrine? You can't say that he is good at all since you've all ready said he's not. Man is totaly depraved.

By imputation. The righteousness of Christ as the Surety, Substitute, Representative and High priest has brought in an everlasting righteousness that not only will God accept but delights in. 2Cor. 5:21

 

[mlqurgw]

No question.

Since we are talking about Calvinism, it's beneficial to know what Calvin actually said.

Would you consider yourself a Calvinist? While I can't say that I have read all that Calvin wrote I do have most of his works and have worked through them over the years. Be that as it may I didn't intend this to be about John Calvin as much as about what is commonly called Calvinism. Calvinism encompasses amny different views including Reformed Theology, Covenant Theology and variations of them.

 

[mlqurgw]

Question:

Do Calvinists believe that God has any sort of love for the non-elect?

Again the majority of Calvinists do in some sense. It is called common grace. I do not though and again fall into the minority.

 

[mlqurgw]

I think Calvin can be numbered among the great theologians.
Doesn't mean he was right, but that he spent a great deal of time pondering the meaning of scripture.
Gotta admire any man for doing that.

I have read his numerous works, and I do not believe he taught that man had no choice in the matter of seeking God's will.

I also know that Calvin wrote over the span of many years, and would, at times, change his opinion.
Nothing wrong with that. We should all be willing to change our opinion with continued study.

I also know, from reading his works and reading about his life, that in the later part of his career he let his ego get in the way. He felt he had arrived at the final conclusion and no further study was needed.
Which caused him to spend the greater part of his time defending his conclusion, rather than continuing in study as he had done previously.

This ego of his turned him into a tyrant who persecuted anyone who opposed him without remorse.

We see a lot of the same attitude on boards like this. You see those who adamantly defend their set conclusion, rather than just, well, keep studying.

So, while Calvinism is beneficial to study, it is NOT the final authority.

Scripture is always the final authority. Even when I find that I cannot fit a passage into my theology I must bow to the Scriptures. That is one of the problems I have with even my favorite theologian John Gill. He sometimes forces a passage into his theology.

 

[Strangelove]

Again the majority of Calvinists do in some sense. It is called common grace. I do not though and again fall into the minority.

So......that would make you a high Calvinist?

 

[Sissy]

Sissy, You know your not on trial here. You pasted some of Calvin's thoughts and I asked what you thought of it, but rather than answer that your telling me what you think of John Calvin. Not what I asked

One thing I have a hard time understanding on this site, is why many feel the need to get behind someone elses doctrine and not expose their feelings and belief about it.

In keeping with the OP, Can you take some of Calvin's thoughts and ask a question about it rather than just tell your views on the man? Or, perhaps state your view about the doctrines discussed? Forget about John Calvin the man. I thought maybe you could talk about what you pasted earlier in light of biblical scripture.

I did express my feelings on his doctrine.
I said I do not believe he taught that man had no choice in seeking God's will.

I think what he said at the time lines up with:

Romans 1
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
​

It's futile to talk about the doctrines of Calvin without understanding the man himself.
Just as it is futile to talk about the doctrines of Christ without understanding the man Himself.

To separate the doctrine from the man is only expressing a partial story.
But that's just my opinion.
You are welcome to disagree.

 

[mlqurgw]

So......that would make you a high Calvinist?

Yes it would.

 

[Strangelove]

Yes it would.

So...seeing as both you and SBG seem to be at the upper spectrum of Calvinism shouldn't the title of the thread be more aptly named 'What do High / Hyper Calvinists really believe?

....seeing as your not representing the views of regular Calvinism?


(and actually misrepresenting their views with title as it stands per this moment?)

 

[mlqurgw]

I did express my feelings on his doctrine.
I said I do not believe he taught that man had no choice in seeking God's will.

I think what he said at the time lines up with:

Romans 1
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
​

It's futile to talk about the doctrines of Calvin without understanding the man himself.
Just as it is futile to talk about the doctrines of Christ without understanding the man Himself.

To separate the doctrine from the man is only expressing a partial story.
But that's just my opinion.
You are welcome to disagree.

Yet it is only the Presbyterians who actually hold to the doctriens of Calvin in any true sense and even they have in some ways departed from them. The term Calvinism has become a broad umbrella that encompasses many divergent views with a common ground in what has become know as TULIP. The intent of the thread was not to explain Calvin but to shed some light on what is normally misunderstood about those who call themselves Calvinists. I welcome your thoughts and comments but did want to reiterate the purpose of the thread.

 

[mlqurgw]

So...seeing as both you and SBG seem to be at the upper spectrum of Calvinism shouldn't the title of the thread be more aptly named 'What do High / Hyper Calvinists really believe?

....seeing as your not representing the views of regular Calvinism?


(and actually misrepresenting their views with title as it stands per this moment?)

I don't think that I have in any way been dishonest about what Calvinists believe. I haven't misrepresented them or even given a wrong view according to the majority of them. The fact that I am a High Calvinist hasn't colored my honest attempt to say what I know from years of experience among them to be their views. If I have misrepresented the majority of Calvinists in any way they are free to correct me and I welcome it and have even invited it. I have given my views along with the more common views of most Calvinists because I didn't want you or anyone else to mistakenly think I agreed with all Calvinists in all areas.

 

[Sissy]

Would you consider yourself a Calvinist?

No.
I abhor the final conclusion that Calvin arrived at.

If a parent holds to the doctrine Calvin concluded, then when his child reads scripture and says he wants to seek God and His mercy, then the parent can only respond, "You don't have a choice in the matter. You might be destined for hell, and there's not a darn thing you can do about it".

Sounds harsh.
But that is exactly the conclusion Calvin arrived at.

 

[mlqurgw]

No.
I abhor the final conclusion that Calvin arrived at.

If a parent holds to the doctrine Calvin concluded, then when his child reads scripture and says he wants to seek God and His mercy, then the parent can only respond, "You don't have a choice in the matter. You might be destined for hell, and there's not a darn thing you can do about it".

Sounds harsh.
But that is exactly the conclusion Calvin arrived at.

I have never read that in Calvin nor any who hold to Calvinism, except the Hyper Calvinists. Is it possible that you have come to a wrong conclusion of what Calvin believed?

 

[savedbygrace57]

danus:

I think we can also count on what is said of man's will, in that some will not be saved.

In my religion, a man is not saved by mans will, but by God's will Gal 1:

4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Jesus Christ gave Himself for those that He died in order to save [deliver] them from this evil world according to the will [desire,pleasure]of God the Father.

Now the Jesus I serve and worship, Has been successful in delivering everyone He gave Himself for.

 

[savedbygrace57]

17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now​

commandeth all men every where to repent:

17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;
whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

The men everywhere that God has commandeth to repent shall repent.

Thats talking about the Gift of repentance is no longer just for jews, but for all men of every nation.

Repentnace is given to all of Gods elect acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here is not just jewish people but all of Gods elect of the seed of Abraham of every nation.

Abraham was made a Father of Many Nations Gen 17:


5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.



Thats the All Men God commands to repent and they will obey Him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which​

despitefully use you, and persecute you;​

5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.​

God Can tell His disciples to love their enemies, and they will, but that does not negate the fact that God does not love everyone, and He hates some i.e rom 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[Danus]

No.
I abhor the final conclusion that Calvin arrived at.

If a parent holds to the doctrine Calvin concluded, then when his child reads scripture and says he wants to seek God and His mercy, then the parent can only respond, "You don't have a choice in the matter. You might be destined for hell, and there's not a darn thing you can do about it".

Sounds harsh.
But that is exactly the conclusion Calvin arrived at.

I think this speaks to much of the misconception of what Calvin meant. He did not say that man does not have a choice in the matter. There is far more to the story then that, and that is not the conclusion Calvin reached, rather the conclusion many reach about what Calvin meant.

It deserve more thought. So let's look at your statement from that of Calvin. "If a parent holds to the doctrine of Calvin and his child reads scripture and says "I want to seek God and his mercy, then my response is, "great, you can count yourself among the elect."

But I would also say this. In the bible .......(Note: I've pasted the rest from another site)
1 John 5:13 (New International Version)

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.


This means that we are able to know that we are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. But sometimes, we have our doubts and we wonder. So how do we know if we are elect. There are two ways a person can know that they are one of God's elect. The first deals with doctrine and the second deals with practice. 1 Cor. 2:14 says, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." The natural man is the unbeliever. So the word of God is telling us to unbelievers cannot receive in and believe in the spiritual truths that lead to salvation. The spiritual truths include such things as Jesus dying for sin, Jesus being God in flesh, Jesus physically resurrected from the dead, etc. An unbeliever can understand the concept, but an unbeliever does not accept them and received them. So, if a person who claims to be Christian acknowledges these types of spiritual things, that is a sign of his regeneration. Only regenerated people are saved. The second thing to look at is the person's life. Christians seek to abandon their sin and to war against. Unbelievers don't do that. Only Christians are worried about spiritual issues about being right before God. Christians are the ones who, because they are saved and regenerated, have a repentance from sin and the change of life. So, we would see that Christians would be people who would avoid lying, stealing, etc. Unbelievers don't worry about their sin and unbelievers, those who are not regenerated, don't war against their sin.
So, though we cannot look into the heart to tell if someone else's saved, we can look into our own hearts and see if we affirm the basics of the Christian faith, those things which are discernible and believable only by Christians. And, we can no that we are warning against sin, seeking to do away with it (even though we sometimes fail), and bring glory to the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Sissy]

Perhaps the words of Calvin himself would be helpful.




God's eternal decree, by which He compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others.

John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Section 5






the elect are born elect, and not that they are first born, and then after elected, by God who predestinates.

John Calvin's commentary notes in his original 1599 Geneva Bible (Romans 9:10)