What do Calvinists really believe?

[Danus]

Yes, Man is totally Depraved, that is why he must be born again. Being totally depraved does not mean one has to be a murderer or a thief, but one can be very sincere in their religion, treat their neighbors right, be very moral in public and private, give to charities and on and on and yet be totally depraved.

Isa said of man's righteousness, those things he does that are considered right things :

Isa 64:

6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So what your saying is, our moral condition is that which mirrors the fall of man. It is not measured so much in how depraved one is, but that our very nature is that of depravity against that which is wholly-holly, or totally good? In other words a stain is a stain regardless of how large it is? Is that correct in layman's terms?

 

[savedbygrace57]

So what your saying is, our moral condition is that which mirrors the fall of man. It is not measured so much in how depraved one is, but that our very nature is that of depravity against that which is wholly-holly, or totally good? In other words a stain is a stain regardless of how large it is? Is that correct in layman's terms?

God only accepts the Righteousness of Christ, all others is filthy rags.

 

[Danus]

We are factually advised of WHY unbelievers do not and CAN NOT believe. It has nothing to do with the 'free will' of man.

Deterninism in MOST forms accepts that the unbeliever is BLINDED, intentionally so, by GOD. And here is HOW in black on white SHOWING this to be a FACT apart from the WILL of THE MAN alone:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Any FREE WILL proponent obviously CAN NOT see that the CAUSE of unbelief and spiritual BLINDNESS is NOT solely of the MAN, but of A BLINDING SPIRIT that is NOT the MAN.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

ALL of us who now BELIEVE were ONCE thusly BLINDED.

We did not 'free' ourselves from that SPIRIT. God REMOVED that SPIRIT so that we could BELIEVE.

This same SPIRIT resides today on the people of ISRAEL as well, and was PUT UPON them BY GOD HIMSELF:

Romans 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

NO MAN can REMOVE THIS BLINDING SPIRIT.

THAT BLINDING SPIRIT MUST BE REMOVED BY GOD as it was and IS GOD who places that SPIRIT.

s

Ok Ok, but you took my statement in another direction slightly. Unbelievers are one thing, but can't a man of free will choose God, seek God and find? I mean if God does not give something to a man to woo him, can that man seek God out on his own and find him, or do you think he's simply so blinded as have a vial over him that is not lifted by God regardless of said man's efforts to see?

 

[Strangelove]

I aint going to argue with you. So be it, but you are wrong..

LOLZ!

Glad I 'asked a Calvinist'.

 

[Sissy]

2 Corinthians 4
(4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Danus]

God only accepts the Righteousness of Christ, all others is filthy rags.

Then if man is totally depraved and God only accepts the rightiousness of Christ, and no man is this since he is totally depraved, (A filthy rags) how can he be counted righteous as Christ under the Calvin doctrine? You can't say that he is good at all since you've all ready said he's not. Man is totaly depraved.

 

[Sissy]

Is there a question in there some where or were you seeking to make a point? Just for the record I would agree with Calvin's statement as quoted.

No question.

Since we are talking about Calvinism, it's beneficial to know what Calvin actually said.

 

[Danus]

No question.

Since we are talking about Calvinism, it's beneficial to know what Calvin actually said.

Can I ask...what is your take on what Calvin said? How would you word it's meaning in light of scripture?

 

[savedbygrace57]

danus asked:

Then if man is totally depraved and God only accepts the rightiousness of Christ, and no man is this since he is totally depraved, (A filthy rags) how can he be counted righteous

By Christ being made sin for them 2 cor 5:

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

And By Him rendering obedience for one ! rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[smaller]

Ok Ok, but you took my statement in another direction slightly. Unbelievers are one thing, but can't a man of free will choose God, seek God and find?

No, they flatly CAN NOT believe when that spirit of disobedience that IS NOT THEM remains upon their MINDS.

Believers who THINK they removed that DISOBEDIENT spirit do not even realize or acknowledge their prior state of unbelief UNDER that spirit and they also FALSELY believe they 'saved themselves' by their own will, which of course never happened.

God removed that spirit FROM THEM so they could believe. Whether they see it NOW or not is irrelevant. The fact is THAT SPIRIT does blind ALL who do not believe and NONE can do anything about it.

Freewillers rather than seeing the REAL STATE of the unbeliever BLINDLY blames THE MAN when it is in fact GOD Himself who chooses NOT TO remove that blinding spirit.

I mean if God does not give something to a man to woo him, can that man seek God out on his own and find him, or do you think he's simply so blinded as have a vial over him that is not lifted by God regardless of said man's efforts to see?

Men CAN NOT remove what GOD HAS PLACED. It is NOT possible.

Paul was abundantly clear on this matter. Determinists ACCEPT these statements as FACTS because they are FACTS that come with the BLINDING SPIRIT OF DISOBEDIENCE:

Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

These are facts.

No MANS WILL can free himself from the BLINDING SPIRIT that GOD has placed upon ALL unbelievers.

The SHEPHARD HIMSELF seeks out ONLY THOSE whom HE ELECTS to hear and believe.

This ONE tenet of determinism is beyond question (to me) and as stated, MOST determinists accept the facts of these matters FAR MORE ACCURATELY than ANY forms of 'freewillisms.'

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Strangelove]

Question:

Do Calvinists believe that God has any sort of love for the non-elect?

 

[smaller]

Question:

Do Calvinists believe that God has any sort of love for the non-elect?

No, they DO NOT.

That is why I left the Calvin doctrines in part.

They themselves CAN NOT love whom they believe GOD CONDEMNS. They can CLAIM they LOVE the unsaved, but they do so only because they do not KNOW whom the elect are.

In reality they ONLY love the 'elect' and they CLAIM love to the balance ONLY because there is 'a chance' that some other person MAY be elected to HEAR and believe. This latter LOVE is A FALSE LOVE and can be NOTHING BUT FALSE LOVE in the HOPE to find AN ELECT person.

To me this is the greatest ERROR of Calvin and why I began to question those doctrines.

s

 

[Sissy]

Can I ask...what is your take on what Calvin said? How would you word it's meaning in light of scripture?

I think Calvin can be numbered among the great theologians.
Doesn't mean he was right, but that he spent a great deal of time pondering the meaning of scripture.
Gotta admire any man for doing that.

I have read his numerous works, and I do not believe he taught that man had no choice in the matter of seeking God's will.

I also know that Calvin wrote over the span of many years, and would, at times, change his opinion.
Nothing wrong with that. We should all be willing to change our opinion with continued study.

I also know, from reading his works and reading about his life, that in the later part of his career he let his ego get in the way. He felt he had arrived at the final conclusion and no further study was needed.
Which caused him to spend the greater part of his time defending his conclusion, rather than continuing in study as he had done previously.

This ego of his turned him into a tyrant who persecuted anyone who opposed him without remorse.

We see a lot of the same attitude on boards like this. You see those who adamantly defend their set conclusion, rather than just, well, keep studying.

So, while Calvinism is beneficial to study, it is NOT the final authority.

 

[smaller]

I think Calvin can be numbered among the great theologians.
Doesn't mean he was right, but that he spent a great deal of time pondering the meaning of scripture.
Gotta admire any man for doing that.

I have read his numerous works, and I do not believe he taught that man had no choice in the matter of seeking God's will.

I also know that Calvin wrote over the span of many years, and would, at times, change his opinion.
Nothing wrong with that. We should all be willing to change our opinion with continued study.

I also know, from reading his works and reading about his life, that in the later part of his career he let his ego get in the way. He felt he had arrived at the final conclusion and no further study was needed.
Which caused him to spend the greater part of his time defending his conclusion, rather than continuing in study as he had done previously.

This ego of his turned him into a tyrant who persecuted anyone who opposed him without remorse.

We see a lot of the same attitude on boards like this. You see those who adamantly defend their set conclusion, rather than just, well, keep studying.

So, while Calvinism is beneficial to study, it is NOT the final authority.

Ah, now above is BRILLIANT.

Yes, MANY believers have taken Calvin positions to FAR better understandings than Calvin did.

and yes, Calvin WAS in the end, in agreement with MURDER.

I doubt very much THAT to be a 'fruit' of an ELECT. His most adamant adherents will DEFEND and isolate CALVIN from that murder, but Calvin was clearly consenting to the matter of MURDER of his opponent.

His own BLINDNESS was proven out at his end.

s

 

[Danus]

Question:

Do Calvinists believe that God has any sort of love for the non-elect?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (New International Version)
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 (New International Version)
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I would say YES if we can rephrase your question; "is it God's will that all be saved?" I think that would be the ultimate question in regards to the love of God.

However, in the reformist view which includes Calvin, not all will be saved. We need to answer why that is and I think we can easily use Calvin's theology to do just that.

The ultimate goal here is just to not sin, but because of the fall of man that's not possible. Unless you think it is, but the bible is quite clear that all are sinners. I don't see the need to list biblical verses to prove that.

Calvin would say...I think...that God has a perfect will and a permissive will. His perfect will would be that we not sin, his permissive will is that he allows sin, which allows for his sovereign plan. I'll stop here since we are getting into deep waters and there is only enough space for X amount of typing. But, we should also consider this question; are those not saved, God's fault, or mans fault?

There have been a few notions batted around on this thread that I so far do not agree on. I think each man has the ability to seek and find God and thus be saved by embracing salvation, but I believe some will not, choosing instead to remain blind. Does God waste his time on the ones he knows will not choose him? Hum? I think he allows them to stay in their condition, but the option is available to them. Still some will and some will not. So, with this foreknowledge some are elect, some are not under the two wills of God as defined by Calvin.

 

[Danus]

I think Calvin can be numbered among the great theologians.
Doesn't mean he was right, but that he spent a great deal of time pondering the meaning of scripture.
Gotta admire any man for doing that.

I have read his numerous works, and I do not believe he taught that man had no choice in the matter of seeking God's will.

I also know that Calvin wrote over the span of many years, and would, at times, change his opinion.
Nothing wrong with that. We should all be willing to change our opinion with continued study.

I also know, from reading his works and reading about his life, that in the later part of his career he let his ego get in the way. He felt he had arrived at the final conclusion and no further study was needed.
Which caused him to spend the greater part of his time defending his conclusion, rather than continuing in study as he had done previously.

This ego of his turned him into a tyrant who persecuted anyone who opposed him without remorse.

We see a lot of the same attitude on boards like this. You see those who adamantly defend their set conclusion, rather than just, well, keep studying.

So, while Calvinism is beneficial to study, it is NOT the final authority.

Sissy, You know your not on trial here. You pasted some of Calvin's thoughts and I asked what you thought of it, but rather than answer that your telling me what you think of John Calvin. Not what I asked

One thing I have a hard time understanding on this site, is why many feel the need to get behind someone elses doctrine and not expose their feelings and belief about it.

In keeping with the OP, Can you take some of Calvin's thoughts and ask a question about it rather than just tell your views on the man? Or, perhaps state your view about the doctrines discussed? Forget about John Calvin the man. I thought maybe you could talk about what you pasted earlier in light of biblical scripture.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Question:

Do Calvinists believe that God has any sort of love for the non-elect?

No [I dont at least], Because Gods Love is Perfect and Holy and Centered in His Son Jesus Christ 1 jn 4:

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If God did not place ones sins on Christ to be propitiated for, then He does not Love one.

Now, Does God exercise providential care for the Non Elect, Yes He does because they are His creatures that He is preserving for a purpose.

But that is not His Love for them, because He has done nothing for their eternal well being.

Take a Jailer, the Jailer may not Love his inmates, in fact he may despise them, but he will provide for their natural necessities while under his care, he will faithfully feed them, and if need be provide medical care and etc. But that should not be construed as his loving them, he is merely doing his job. and Yes it is by His own Choice Gods job to provide for all His creatures. But it is not Gods choice to Love all His Creatures, and therefore we read:

Rom 9:

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[savedbygrace57]

danus:

I would say YES if we can rephrase your question; "is it God's will that all be saved?" I think that would be the ultimate question in regards to the love of God.

And I would say that it is Jesus Christ responsibilty to save all who God His Father wants to be saved.

John 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Lk 19:

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

We must ask ourself, Has Jesus Christ been successful in accomplishing the Fathers will ?

 

[Danus]

danus:



And I would say that it is Jesus Christ responsibilty to save all who God His Father wants to be saved.

John 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Lk 19:

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

We must ask ourself, Has Jesus Christ been successful in accomplishing the Fathers will ?

:yes And I would agree with that tip of the Calvin/Reformation ice-burg. Totally correct, totally biblical. I think we can count on God and Jesus to fulfill Gods will, and in light of that, I think we can also count on what is said of man's will, in that some will not be saved.

Is that God's problem or fault or lack of love? I don't think so.

 

[Strangelove]

I cannot speak per se for all who call themselves Calvinist, but No, Faith nor repentance are duties of anyone Christ did not died for. All those for who Christ did not die for, are under the curse of the law and must obey it completely or else they will be excluded from the Kingdom of Heaven..

17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now
commandeth all men every where to repent:​

17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;
whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​