What do you think?

[Solo]

I plan to make a number of posts in which I will argue what the implications are of believing that the Luke 16 account is a factual account and that



I humbly submit that to ensure global Biblical consistency, Luke 16 cannot be a historical event.

First point: If, as Solo asserts, it is the soul of the rich man that is in Sheol / Hades, why is the story full of reference to body parts:

1. Lazarus' finger
2. The rich man's tongue
3. Abraham is at Lazarus's side (do disembodied souls have "sides"?)

Why are angels considered having the body parts of men but are in fact spirits?

God is spirit, so ......

Why is God said to have a mouth? Deuteronomy 8:3
Why is God said to have lips and a tongue? Isaiah 30:27
Why is God said to have a finger? Deuteronomy 9:10
Why is God said to an arm and a hand? Deuteronomy 4:34
Why is God said to have an eye? Psalm 33:18

 

[Drew]

Why are angels considered having the body parts of men but are in fact spirits?

God is spirit, so ......

Why is God said to have a mouth? Deuteronomy 8:3
Why is God said to have lips and a tongue? Isaiah 30:27
Why is God said to have a finger? Deuteronomy 9:10
Why is God said to an arm and a hand? Deuteronomy 4:34
Why is God said to have an eye? Psalm 33:18

Fair enough, I will withdraw the implication that references to body parts works against the view that it is the rich man's and Lazarus's souls that are being talked about in Luke 16.

While I think you make a good point, by using other Scripture (such as the ones you have posted) to help us interpret Luke 16, the application of this same principle, I suggest, will be the undoing of the "Luke 16 is an historical account" viewpoint. We will see that its apparent plausibility is undone by the implications of other Scriptures.

 

[Solo]

Ecclesiastes 12 shows that the body and spirit are two portions of the makeup of a man. The body is merely a physical commodity returning to the material earth from which it was created, while the spirit returns to the spiritual realm which is immortal as God and his created angels are immortal. Only the physical body is immortal and dies. The immortal spirit remains in one of two places for eternity; in Hades until cast into the lake of fire, or in Heaven until the creation of the new earth and new heavens.

 

[Drew]

Consider Revelation 22:12

Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done

Has this event happened yet? I would think rather obviously not. So both Lazarus and the rich man seem to be an exception to the very strong implication that reward and punishment lie in the future.

Now, of course one can invent a complicated system where the rich man and Lazarus are both getting a "sneak preview" of what is to come - that their sbustantial rewards / punishment are delivered in the future and right now they are only getting a foretaste. This theology is getting very complex and awkward - and I suggest that this is a warning sign.

 

[Guest]

Jesus was speaking to Pharisees and the disciples were with Him when he was speaking in a parable in Luke 18.

Is it not interesting that the Scriptures denote when Jesus speaks in parables!! :wink:

Jesus was NOT speaking a parable in Luke 16.

Why do you need Luke 16 to be a parable and not an actual occurrence?

In Luke 17:22 it says that "And He said to the disciples" - if your contention Solo is that Jesus only uses parables when "others" are around, and Jesus does not use parables with the disciples, then why in Luke 18:1 does it say "Now He was telling them a parable"? There is nothing to suggest that the Pharisees were present at Luke 18:1 - using your logic.

The question shouldn't be why "I need" Luke 16 to be a parable, but rather why do you need to make it an actual occurence.

What I am suggesting is that Jesus uses parables and actual events to teach - regardless of the audience. This does not nullify that those that have been re-born will be able to understand spiritual matters, and those that are not will not.

In reference to the conversation - I believe it was JG who quoted an commentary that suggested Luke 16 must be an actual event based on the conservation between the rich man and Abraham. If I understood the quote correctly it was referencing the framework of the converstation (not the actual words spoken). What I am saying is that in the parable of the Prodigal Son - Jesus relates a conversation between the father and the son, and the brother, and even a servant. Therefore, the framework of the conversation in Luke 16 is no different than in the Prodigal Son.

 

[jgredline]

I apologize if I missed a question.

Demons are another story - I think the Scriptures are clear that demons can "fly back and forth" between living creatures, such as when Jesus sends the demons from a human into the pigs.

Demons, of course, can and do interact with the "wholistic" human person. I do not see that this causes any problem for the view that man does not have an immortal soul.

Do you think that just because demons are entities that can "fly around between hosts" that human souls must also have this kind of "seperability" from the body in which they are "housed".

Drew....What is a demon? Does a demon have a physical body? NO...A demon is a spirit...an evil spirit to be exact...which furthers the argument that the spirit is separate of the body....Now where are the evil spirits going to go when it is all said and done? To the lake of fire where they will burn along with the souls of those who rejected Jesus....for all eternity...

Keep in mind as I have already pointed out ''many'' times, that the spirit and soul are used interchangeably many times through out the scriptures....

 

[Drew]

Ecclesiastes 12 shows that the body and spirit are two portions of the makeup of a man. The body is merely a physical commodity returning to the material earth from which it was created, while the spirit returns to the spiritual realm which is immortal as God and his created angels are immortal. Only the physical body is immortal and dies. The immortal spirit remains in one of two places for eternity; in Hades until cast into the lake of fire, or in Heaven until the creation of the new earth and new heavens.

Can you please be more precise. You strongly suggest that the immortal spirit of the rich man is in Hades right now. Fine. But whether or not Ecclesiastes 12 show that "the body and spirit are two portions of the makeup of a man", Ecclesiastes 12:7 clearly states that at physical death, the spirit returns to God. It does not merely say that the spirit returns to the "spiritual realm" - it returns to God.

Presumably you must believe that in the case of the rich man, God then immediately sent that spirit to Hades. That's no crime, but it appears to me to be the only way that your view about Luke 16 can work with Ecclesiastes 12:7.

And it has the problem of explaining how reward and punishment are handed out before the time of judgement as other texts strongly suggest.

 

[Drew]

Does a demon have a physical body? NO...A demon is a spirit...an evil spirit to be exact...which furthers the argument that the spirit is separate of the body.....

Demons are demons. People are people. What is true of demons cannot be assumed to be true of people.

 

[Solo]

In Luke 17:22 it says that "And He said to the disciples" - if your contention Solo is that Jesus only uses parables when "others" are around, and Jesus does not use parables with the disciples, then why in Luke 18:1 does it say "Now He was telling them a parable"? There is nothing to suggest that the Pharisees were present at Luke 18:1 - using your logic.

The question shouldn't be why "I need" Luke 16 to be a parable, but rather why do you need to make it an actual occurence.

What I am suggesting is that Jesus uses parables and actual events to teach - regardless of the audience. This does not nullify that those that have been re-born will be able to understand spiritual matters, and those that are not will not.

In reference to the conversation - I believe it was JG who quoted an commentary that suggested Luke 16 must be an actual event based on the conservation between the rich man and Abraham. If I understood the quote correctly it was referencing the framework of the converstation (not the actual words spoken). What I am saying is that in the parable of the Prodigal Son - Jesus relates a conversation between the father and the son, and the brother, and even a servant. Therefore, the framework of the conversation in Luke 16 is no different than in the Prodigal Son.

You, my friend, have an unteachable spirit. If you are serious about being a child of God, I would suggest that you examine yourself fully before continuing to debate Scripture. Your inability to understand the simple text pointed out to you is a grave concern of mine. I will continue to pray that God bless you with His understanding and wisdom.

PS You haven't answered the question as to why Luke 16 has to be a parable to your beliefs?

Also, when Jesus is teaching others, the closest group to him are the disciples. For you to place Jesus in a box and say that Jesus cannot be talking with his disciples when there is a crowd around, or that Jesus cannot be talking with others beside the disciples while the disciples are by Him is immature reasoning.

 

[guibox]

Can you please be more precise. You strongly suggest that the immortal spirit of the rich man is in Hades right now. Fine. But whether or not Ecclesiastes 12 show that "the body and spirit are two portions of the makeup of a man", Ecclesiastes 12:7 clearly states that at physical death, the spirit returns to God. It does not merely say that the spirit returns to the "spiritual realm" - it returns to God.

Presumably you must believe that in the case of the rich man, God then immediately sent that spirit to Hades. That's no crime, but it appears to me to be the only way that your view about Luke 16 can work with Ecclesiastes 12:7.

And it has the problem of explaining how reward and punishment are handed out before the time of judgement as other texts strongly suggest.

Yes, Drew. Still two problems that nobody has or can address properly due to their gross misinterpretation of what the 'pnuema/ruach' is.

All men's spirits go back to God. They ascend up. They do not go down to Hades, they are not conscious. You cannot have the righteous spirits conscious in heaven and in Hades at the same time and the wicked's spirits in heaven at all (of which must occur for jg and solo's intepretation of spirit to be correct), nevermind in two places at once.

John 5:28.29 and Daniel 12:1,2 and Revelation 20 make it plain that rewards and punishments are given out at the resurrections and not at our physical death. There is not a punishment and reward for the body and another one for the soul.

There is one resurrection to eternal life...there is one resurrection to eternal death. There is a spiritual body of immortality given to the righteous, there is a mortal body still suffering the wages of sin for the wicked.

One is given immortality, the other is mortal and suffers those wages.

The bible is pretty clear when you don't incorporate Greek philosophy into a Hebrew/Christian mindset.

BTW, jg and Solo, I guess both Luther and William Tyndale were cultists because they denied the immortality of the soul and spirit as well....dang..I guess when you are all right and the rest are wrong, EVERYONE'S a cultist!

 

[Solo]

Can you please be more precise. You strongly suggest that the immortal spirit of the rich man is in Hades right now. Fine. But whether or not Ecclesiastes 12 show that "the body and spirit are two portions of the makeup of a man", Ecclesiastes 12:7 clearly states that at physical death, the spirit returns to God. It does not merely say that the spirit returns to the "spiritual realm" - it returns to God.

Presumably you must believe that in the case of the rich man, God then immediately sent that spirit to Hades. That's no crime, but it appears to me to be the only way that your view about Luke 16 can work with Ecclesiastes 12:7.

And it has the problem of explaining how reward and punishment are handed out before the time of judgement as other texts strongly suggest.

First of all, I do not believe that God sent the rich man's spirit to place of torment in Sheol/Hades. I believe that the man sent himself there. When his spirit/soul left his body, it went to it place of eternal residence based on his condemned state. All of those condemned are condemned already according to Jesus as recorded in John 3. The only ones that ended up in Abraham's bosom (paradise) in the place of Sheol/Hades are those that were born again as Jesus taught Nicodemus. The angels carried Lazarus' Spirit/soul to paradise. After Jesus' resurrection, He led those in paradise to heaven where the spirits/souls of all those who are born again now go.

When Jesus comes, he has his rewards with him.

• 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Revelation 22:12

Again, when one who is not born again dies, he is condemned already according to Jesus.

• 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:12-19

After the one thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, all of the dead that are condemned already and are in Sheol/Hades will be resurrected, judged at the white throne judgment, and cast into the the lake of fire if their name is not written in the book of life.

• 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [Hades]delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10-15

 

[jgredline]

Demons are demons. People are people. What is true of demons cannot be assumed to be true of people.

Very bad logic and extremely bad theology....Here is why....First we know that demons ''are spirits'' Here are two of many examples I can give you.....

Luke 8:2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmitiesâ€â€Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons,

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?â€Â

So clearly these demonic ''flying things'' as I believe you called them are spirits....which means they are two different parts....

Now lets look at the flip side....

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.â€Â

Do I need to say more......

 

[Drew]

Very bad logic and extremely bad theology....Here is why....First we know that demons ''are spirits'' Here are two of many examples I can give you.....

Luke 8:2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmitiesâ€â€Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons,

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?â€Â

So clearly these demonic ''flying things'' as I believe you called them are spirits....which means they are two different parts....

Now lets look at the flip side....

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.â€Â

Do I need to say more......

Great Gulliver's ghost man - who are you arguing with?! I have never said or remotely implied that demons are not immaterial spirits. I agree with you on the matter of demons. Please read my posts.

And yes, you do need to say more. The fact that the word "spirit" can mean a disembodied entitly in the case of demons does not permit you to thereby conclude that the John texts are referring to immaterial spirits. We have powerful evidence that the Scriptures uses words like soul and spirit differently in different contexts. This is not news.

I'll tell you what bad logic is - its arguing that the conjunction "and" as per "body and soul in Matthew 10:28 justifies concluding that the soul is an immaterial entity that can exist independent of the body.

If that were true then the statement: "When man dies, the following things are lost: body and mind and personality and thoughts and emotions and memories and cares and desires and....." would lead us to conclude that when the body dies, all these other things are still floating around somewhere as immaterial entities.

Now that is bad logic.

And I have no idea what this sentence means. Please clarify:

So clearly these demonic ''flying things'' as I believe you called them are spirits....which means they are two different parts

 

[Guest]

You, my friend, have an unteachable spirit. If you are serious about being a child of God, I would suggest that you examine yourself fully before continuing to debate Scripture. Your inability to understand the simple text pointed out to you is a grave concern of mine. I will continue to pray that God bless you with His understanding and wisdom.

Solo - am I unteachable because I do not agree with your interpretation? All that makes me guilty of is not following you. However, I am teachable by the Holy Spirit - that is my guide, not you.

PS You haven't answered the question as to why Luke 16 has to be a parable to your beliefs?

Yes - I did answer it, and then I asked you a question. I do not need it to be a parable for the meaning of the passage to be clear. However, YOU do need it to be an actual event for YOUR understanding. If Luke 16 is not an actual event - YOUR use of the passage is in jeopardy.

Also, when Jesus is teaching others, the closest group to him are the disciples. For you to place Jesus in a box and say that Jesus cannot be talking with his disciples when there is a crowd around, or that Jesus cannot be talking with others beside the disciples while the disciples are by Him is immature reasoning.

I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth - I did not say that Jesus could NOT do that - rather I stated that the scripture does not provide that.

It is you who need to make it comlicated to understand. Typically when one requires complicated reasoning to inteprete then a) they have an agenda or b) the intrepetation is wrong or c) both.

 

[Drew]

When his spirit/soul left his body, it went to it place of eternal residence based on his condemned state

Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that the spirit of man "returns to God". I am not sure how one can deny this. If Ecclesiastes 12:7 is inspired Scripture, then the spirit (whatever one believes about what it is), returns to God.

Solo, please tell us all whether you believed that, at death, the rich man's spirit returned to God, regardless of what you believe happened thereafter.

 

[guibox]

After Jesus' resurrection, He led those in paradise to heaven where the spirits/souls of all those who are born again now go.

That's pretty hard to do considering that the same language and the same spirit as in Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Acts 7:59,60 are both used. And very hard considering that the 'spirit' which is translated 'ruach' of ALL men go back to God and not just those that 'are born again'.

Still can't explain that one.

Also notice the words in Acts 7 which explain what 'receiving the spirit means

"and when he said this, he fell asleep"

And in John 19:30

"and when He said this, Jesus breathed His last"

Of course, this is convenient to ignore too to so desperately put them both in heaven at their immediate death.

After the one thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, all of the dead that are condemned already and are in Sheol/Hades will be resurrected, judged at the white throne judgment, and cast into the the lake of fire if their name is not written in the book of life.

Hmmmm....the fact that they were in Hades and not in paradise tells one right there that their name is not written in the book of life. They are judged twice for the same judgement with the same results. The Bible speaks of only one judgement.

Also, you said 'if their name'. That would mean that there are some in Hades and the grave whose names ARE. However, according to your first comment, they go to paradise when they die.

Man, you guys are digging your hole so deep.
How about you try and understand the exegetical uses of the words 'soul' and 'spirit' instead of a pagan-Greek translation?

 

[Drew]

Hello guibox and Solo and others:

Guibox, I think you may not have understood Solo's postion. He stated

Prior to Jesus resurrection, the righteous died and their body went into the grave, while the soul went to paradise in Sheol/Hades.

Prior to Jesus resurrection, the unrighteous died and their body went into the grave, while the soul went to flame and torment in Sheol/Hades.

So he believe that paradise is a part of Hades.

 

[Solo]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that the spirit of man "returns to God". I am not sure how one can deny this. If Ecclesiastes 12:7 is inspired Scripture, then the spirit (whatever one believes about what it is), returns to God.

Solo, please tell us all whether you believed that, at death, the rich man's spirit returned to God, regardless of what you believe happened thereafter.

I believe that the rich man's spirit/soul went to God's place of punishment for the unrighteous. The rich man's spirit/soul did not go into the grave with his body.

 

[guibox]

Hello guibox and Solo and others:

Guibox, I think you may not have understood Solo's postion.
So he believe that paradise is a part of Hades.

My mistake for missing that, Solo.

However, the problem still stands. Solomon described the 'spirits of men going back to God who gave it' just as the spirits of Stephen and Christ did.

The nature and place of man didn't change for they both come out of the grave at the resurrection. Daniel 12:1,2 relates completely with John 5:28,29.

It is in trying to make the places, states and nature of man both righteous and unrighteous different before and after Christ that pits the NT against the OT when they do not contradict but agree. It is time to stop theorizing and getting so far off the track that the nature of man and salvation becomes unrecognizable.

 

[Solo]

Hello guibox and Solo and others:

Guibox, I think you may not have understood Solo's postion. He stated


So he believe that paradise is a part of Hades.

Paradise was a part of Hades until Jesus' resurrection. At that time paradise was delivered to Heaven, and that is where the righteous souls continue to go at present.