Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Are you receiving an "error" mesage when posting?

    Chances are it went through, so check before douible posting.

    We hope to have the situtaion resolved soon, and Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Ever read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?

    Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject

    https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

What do you think?

All,
If soul and body were the same manifestation, then the conjunction "and" would be superfluous and unnecessary. Drew's definition of soul is lacking and it denies the metaphysical plane of existence. The natural man knows nothing of the metaphysical plane so pray for Drew's salvation.
Thank you and God bless.
 
Solo said:
Along with following the devils tactic of spreading false doctrines, you are also following his tactic of dividing believers so that he can conquer. Not a surprise for one like me who has seen you type many times before.
This is the "get out of a tight spot free" card that a Christian can afford to play. When the debate is not going one's way, one can always ignore the inconvenience of engaging in actual debate and claim that one's opponent is "of the devil" or a member of a cult, etc.

In the words of the church lady: "How convenient".

I on the other hand can let the position that Solo holds speak for itself. He believes that the rich man from Luke 16 is presently in flames in Hades. At some point in the future, he will be extracted from the flames, subjected to judgement, and then tossed into a different bucket of flames.

Kind of makes the great judgement seem more like recess - a short break from a fire that one is already in, before being re-inserted into a different fire.
 
Solo said:
If soul and body were the same manifestation, then the conjunction "and" would be superfluous and unnecessary.

"I like her body and her personality"

"He has a strong body and a powerful spirit"

"She has a healthy body and a kind heart"

"He has a healthy body and a powerful conscience"

"She has a good body and a powerful mind"

Wow, the universe is rapidly filling up with immortal things. Immortal hearts, immortal consciences, immortal personalities, immortal minds, and immortal spirits. After all, these must be immortal things that survive death because the conjunction "and" is used.
 
Solo said:
All,
If soul and body were the same manifestation, then the conjunction "and" would be superfluous and unnecessary. Drew's definition of soul is lacking and it denies the metaphysical plane of existence. The natural man knows nothing of the metaphysical plane so pray for Drew's salvation.
Thank you and God bless.

Agreed.....
 
I would be interested in the evidence that Luke 16:19-31 is of an actual event.

Luke 15 and upto Luke 16:19 - Jesus was teaching in parables - it would reason then that he would continue with like teaching. Also, the point of the passage is not teachings on Hades or Sheoul or Hell - but rather our responsiblity to live out the Scriptures (verse 31) and that responsiblity would be of those who have been blessed by God to take care of and help those who are less fortunate.

This is a radical shift of the society of the time and even today. To drive the point home, Jesus provides a name to someone who would normaly go nameless - the poor, the homeless, the down-trodden and purposefully leaves the 'rich-man' anonymous.
 
Drew said:
"I like her body and her personality"

"He has a strong body and a powerful spirit"

"She has a healthy body and a kind heart"

"He has a healthy body and a powerful conscience"

"She has a good body and a powerful mind"

Wow, the universe is rapidly filling up with immortal things. Immortal hearts, immortal consciences, immortal personalities, immortal minds, and immortal spirits. After all, these must be immortal things that survive death because the conjunction "and" is used.

people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.


Drew
I suggest you get born again and receive the Holy Spirit so you can understand that your false teaching is clearly against Jesus....You are so consumed with pride you do not even see the truth...
 
jgredline said:

people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.


Drew
I suggest you get born again and receive the Holy Spirit so you can understand that your false teaching is clearly against Jesus....You are so consumed with pride you do not even see the truth...
Nice dodge. Do you think that readers will not see the aburdity of the argument that the use of the conjunction "and" in "body and soul" establishes the existence of an immortal soul? When a blunder like that claim occurs, I suggest that you admit the mistake and make the best of it.

I am getting tired. It is time put "body and mind" to rest. The body sleeps in the bedroom and the mind sleeps on the couch in the living room. Sorry, couldn't resist....
 
Drew said:
"I like her body and her personality"

"He has a strong body and a powerful spirit"

"She has a healthy body and a kind heart"

"He has a healthy body and a powerful conscience"

"She has a good body and a powerful mind"

Wow, the universe is rapidly filling up with immortal things. Immortal hearts, immortal consciences, immortal personalities, immortal minds, and immortal spirits. After all, these must be immortal things that survive death because the conjunction "and" is used.
Once again, a look at the creation from a natural perspective void of the metaphysical perspective.
 
Drew

Talk about dodging questions....You never did address this one...

If a person is demon possessed by your interpretation this person is ''one'' with the demon...So what happens when a person is freed from demon possession?.... or do you not believe in demon possession either ....?????
 
aLoneVoice said:
I would be interested in the evidence that Luke 16:19-31 is of an actual event.

Luke 15 and upto Luke 16:19 - Jesus was teaching in parables - it would reason then that he would continue with like teaching. Also, the point of the passage is not teachings on Hades or Sheoul or Hell - but rather our responsiblity to live out the Scriptures (verse 31) and that responsiblity would be of those who have been blessed by God to take care of and help those who are less fortunate.

This is a radical shift of the society of the time and even today. To drive the point home, Jesus provides a name to someone who would normaly go nameless - the poor, the homeless, the down-trodden and purposefully leaves the 'rich-man' anonymous.

In Matthew 15 Jesus is speaking to publicans and sinners, therefore he speaks in parables:
  • 1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. 3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, Luke 15:1-3
In Luke 16 Jesus is speaking to his disciples without using parables:
  • 1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. Luke 16:1
How do I know that Jesus was not talking in parables to His disciples? By what Jesus tells them in Matthew 13:

  • 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Matthew 13:10-13
 
jgredline said:
Drew

Talk about dodging questions....You never did address this one...

If a person is demon possessed by your interpretation this person is ''one'' with the demon...So what happens when a person is freed from demon possession?.... or do you not believe in demon possession either ....?????
You will have to wait until his body goes to the couch and wakes his mind up. :D
 
19–21. There was a certain rich man … and there was a certain beggar. This is the true account of a real history of two men, even though it is used much like a parable, i.e., to teach a particular lesson or to emphasize some principle. Some, however, contend that this is a parable saying that (1) the name Lazarus means “God helps†and is figurative or perhaps was intentionally chosen later because another Lazarus did come back from the dead; (2) it begins exactly as the preceding “parable†in Luke 16:1 (which incidentally is also not called a parable in the text); (3) it is used in parabolic fashion to prove a main point; (4) facts are presented in symbolic form; (5) it is in the context of other parables in Luke 15–18; (6) Christ would not have divulged such truths to unbelieving Pharisees; (7) the ability to see, hear, and communicate between heaven and hell after death is not possible; (8) the rich man would not have known Abraham and Lazarus by sight; and (9) in real life the names of rich men are given, while beggars’ names are unknown. Some of these points are well-taken, but none prove that this account was only a parable.

There are numerous arguments for this account being a real history. (1) Parables are hypothetical illustrations and never name specific individuals. Here not only Lazarus is named, but also Abraham (vss. 22–25, 29–30) and Moses (vs. 31). (2) Jesus said “there was a certain rich man.†Harry Ironside noted, “Was there, or was there not? He definitely declared that there was.†(3) Moses, Abraham, and the prophets are real people, whereas parables never refer to specific Old Testament saints. (4) Luke does not call this a parable as he does in thirteen other clear cases of parable so designated. (5) It is narrated like a real history. (6) Parables deal with the commonplace of what is known to be true to illustrate moral lessons, and come from natural life. This does not. (7) Hades is a reality, not a figure of speech. (8) There is no reason why Jesus could not have had in mind a particular case. He is describing what took place after death in the cases of two men for the moral profit of His hearers. (9) The conversation between the rich man and Abraham does not seem to lend itself to parabolic format. (10) Even a case history, as this is, could be used in parabolic fashion to teach a precise moral truth.
22. Abraham’s bosom. This is a designation for where Abraham was, taken variously as being heaven itself or some other intermediate place.
23–25. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. Between death and resurrection the immaterial part of man goes either to be with the Lord, if he is saved (II Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23), or into conscious torment as here. Resurrection reunites the body to the soul, and the state of existence continues to be either with Christ, or in the punishment of eternal duration (Mt 25:41, 46).
26. A great gulf fixed. Once a person passes from this life his probation is ended, and his eternal destiny is fixed. It has been appointed by God that once a man dies, then comes the judgment (Heb 9:27).
27–30. I have five brethren. The rich man’s name and town are probably omitted in Christ’s recounting of this history because of the embarrassment it might bring to his family that was still living.
31. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Another Lazarus did return from the dead and the religious leaders sought only to kill him, though some believed through his testimony (Jn 12:9–11). Several additional teachings about hell are contained in this brief history. Memory and personality continue there even in the midst of untold anguish, misery, and suffering. There is no returning or sending back of messages from hell; thus, no reincarnation, nor spiritism as it is thought of by those who are thereby deceived.

KJV Bible commentary.
 
Solo said:
In Matthew 15 Jesus is speaking to publicans and sinners, therefore he speaks in parables:
  • 1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. 3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, Luke 15:1-3
In Luke 16 Jesus is speaking to his disciples without using parables:
  • 1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. Luke 16:1
How do I know that Jesus was not talking in parables to His disciples? By what Jesus tells them in Matthew 13:

  • 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Matthew 13:10-13

So why did Jesus need to explain the meaning of the parable of the sowers to the disciples? (Matthew 13:18ff)

In Luke 15 Jesus was speaking to both "tax collectors, sinners" and the disciples.

In Luke 16 it doesn't say the the 'tax collectors and sinners" were not there when Jesus addresses the disciples. In verse 14 it states that the Pharisees were listening to the parable that Jesus spoke in verses Luke 16:1-13.
 
aLoneVoice said:
So why did Jesus need to explain the meaning of the parable of the sowers to the disciples? (Matthew 13:18ff)

In Luke 15 Jesus was speaking to both "tax collectors, sinners" and the disciples.

In Luke 16 it doesn't say the the 'tax collectors and sinners" were not there when Jesus addresses the disciples. In verse 14 it states that the Pharisees were listening to the parable that Jesus spoke in verses Luke 16:1-13.
In Matthew 13 Jesus tells the disciples that he speaks in parables to those who cannot hear and cannot understand because they have not been converted, much like many who profess to be Christians.

Jesus explains to the disciples that their eyes are blessed because they see, as well as their ears because they hear. Jesus goes on to say that many prophets and righteous men desired to see those same things that the disciples are able to see, and hear what the disciples hear but were not able. He then goes on to explain the parable as it relates to the spiritual things that the unconverted could not see or hear. Jesus was still speaking to the multitude in the remaining parables in Matthew 13 after answering the disciples.
  • 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. Matthew 13:14-17
Yes, Jesus was speaking to the publicans and sinners in Luke 15. The disciples were there with him, and the pharasees and scribes heard Jesus also. In Luke 16 Jesus is speaking with his disciples, otherwise the Scripture would not have denoted the occurrence in this way. Even though Jesus was speaking to His disciples, the Pharisees heard the things that Jesus was teaching, and they deridded him. Jesus then spoke of "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached" which is not a parable; and He also spoke of it being "easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail" which is not a parable; and Jesus spoke of "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery" which is not a parable; and He taught that "whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery" which is not a parable; after which Jesus immediately goes into the teaching of the rich man in Sheol and Lazarus in Paradise which also is not a parable.
  • 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:14-31
 
Between Luke 15 and Luke 16 - where did the sinners and tax collectors go? The text does not suggest that they left, or that Jesus was not speaking to them as well.

The question would be is Luke 16:1-13 a parable or actual history?

Also, the disciples did not always understand the parables taught by Jesus, nor did Jesus only speak in parables to the masses (cf: Sermon on the Mount and cf: Jesus needing to explain his parables to the disciples). In Luke 18:1 Jesus uses a parable to teach his disciples.

The other question that needs to be asked is the purpose of the passage of Luke 16:19ff - is it a teaching on the afterlife, or a teaching of right action of followers of Christ.

The conversation between the rich man and Abraham is no different than the conversation contained the the parable of the Prodigal Son.

Jesus does say that "there was" in verse 19 which some have taken to mean that there literally "was" ie: historical account. Yet in Luke 18, Jesus using a parable to teach his disciples (Luke 18:1 "Now He was teaching them a parable") says: "In a certain city there was a judge"
 
aLoneVoice said:
Between Luke 15 and Luke 16 - where did the sinners and tax collectors go? The text does not suggest that they left, or that Jesus was not speaking to them as well.
The text is clear, Jesus was speaking to His disciples.
aLoneVoice said:
The question would be is Luke 16:1-13 a parable or actual history?
As stated in my previous post, Jesus is not teaching in parables at the time He is teaching about the Law and the Prophets, not one tittle of the Law will fail, adultery, and the location of the righteous and unrighteous after death.

aLoneVoice said:
Also, the disciples did not always understand the parables taught by Jesus, nor did Jesus only speak in parables to the masses (cf: Sermon on the Mount and cf: Jesus needing to explain his parables to the disciples).
Jesus was not speaking in parables to His disciples because they did not understand spiritual things. The disciples understood the spiritual things of God. Remember in Matthew 13 that Jesus told them the spiritual things of God as it related to the parable of the sower of the seeds. He did not impart the spiritual definition to the multitudes for they would not have understood, while he imparted the information to the disciples because they did understand the spiritual things of God.

aLoneVoice said:
In Luke 18:1 Jesus uses a parable to teach his disciples.
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and the disciples were with him. Notice verse Luke 17:20 shows that the Pharisees were present.

aLoneVoice said:
The other question that needs to be asked is the purpose of the passage of Luke 16:19ff - is it a teaching on the afterlife, or a teaching of right action of followers of Christ.
This passage teaches both and more. This passage shows later generations who has the Holy Spirit of God dwelling within them.

aLoneVoice said:
The conversation between the rich man and Abraham is no different than the conversation contained the the parable of the Prodigal Son.
You will have to explain why you believe this to be so, because the conversations are entirely different.

aLoneVoice said:
Jesus does say that "there was" in verse 19 which some have taken to mean that there literally "was" ie: historical account. Yet in Luke 18, Jesus using a parable to teach his disciples (Luke 18:1 "Now He was teaching them a parable") says: "In a certain city there was a judge"
Jesus was speaking to Pharisees and the disciples were with Him when he was speaking in a parable in Luke 18.

Is it not interesting that the Scriptures denote when Jesus speaks in parables!! :wink:

Jesus was NOT speaking a parable in Luke 16.

Why do you need Luke 16 to be a parable and not an actual occurrence?
 
jgredline said:
Drew

Talk about dodging questions....You never did address this one...

If a person is demon possessed by your interpretation this person is ''one'' with the demon...So what happens when a person is freed from demon possession?.... or do you not believe in demon possession either ....?????
I apologize if I missed a question.

Demons are another story - I think the Scriptures are clear that demons can "fly back and forth" between living creatures, such as when Jesus sends the demons from a human into the pigs.

Demons, of course, can and do interact with the "wholistic" human person. I do not see that this causes any problem for the view that man does not have an immortal soul.

Do you think that just because demons are entities that can "fly around between hosts" that human souls must also have this kind of "seperability" from the body in which they are "housed".
 
I plan to make a number of posts in which I will argue what the implications are of believing that the Luke 16 account is a factual account and that

Solo said:
Prior to Jesus resurrection, the unrighteous died and their body went into the grave, while the soul went to flame and torment in Sheol/Hades.

I humbly submit that to ensure global Biblical consistency, Luke 16 cannot be a historical event.

First point: If, as Solo asserts, it is the soul of the rich man that is in Sheol / Hades, why is the story full of reference to body parts:

1. Lazarus' finger
2. The rich man's tongue
3. Abraham is at Lazarus's side (do disembodied souls have "sides"?)
 
If Luke 16 is a factual historical account and if it is the soul that is in torment in flames and if we believe Ecclesiastes 12:7:

and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.


then the following alternatives seem forced upon us:

1. The "soul" of the rich man is in Hades (as per Luke 16) and his spirit is with God as per Ecclesiastes 12.

2. In order to avoid the seeming absurdity of the rich man's soul being in Hades and his spirit being with God, we propose that, immediately upon receipt of the rich man's spirit, God immediately sends it down to Hades to join the soul.

3. The "soul" from Luke 16 is the same thing as the "spirit" from Ecclesiastes 12. At least then we then do not have one part of the rich man with God and the other in Hades as per alternatives 1 and 2. Under such a view, the immortal soul/spirit goes to God to satisfy Ecclesiastes 12, and then goes down to Hades to satisfy Luke 16.

Number 3 at least has the ring of plausibility, but I suggest (and plan to show) that it is entirely inconsistent with other texts.

Of course, proponents of the "Luke 16 is history" position may have another explanation about how to reconcile this account with Ecclesiastes 12.
 
Back
Top