What do you think?

[guibox]

Drew - Genesis 2:16-17 "The Lord God commanded the man, saying "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

As we know in Genesis 3:6-8 that both Adam and Eve ate of the fruit.

Did they immediately die? Did they drop over dead? No.

So was God 'wrong' when he said that in the day that you "eat from it you will surely die.'? No. Therefore, the death referred to in Genesis is not a physical, finite death.

Enter Romans 6:23. The wages of sin is death. Referring to the same spiritual death as in Genesis.

The proper translation of this passage is, "And dying you shall die" Man lost his linik to immortality by sinning. Nowhere was man given immortality inherent as an immortal soul so it is complete assumption that the spiritual death means that he would live on as an immortal soul after he physically died.

Man's entire nature was effected by sin. The wages of sin is not merely a spiritual death, it is the the complete death that is the OPPOSITE of eternal life not the equivalent in another form.

This is a grand cop-out to make the terms 'death' 'destroy' and 'destruction' mean merely a spiritual one or merely the death of the body while the soul lives on. The Bible nowhere supports this nonsense.

Lastly - one of my guides in doctrine is the praticality of the doctrine, and if it leaves one longing after God and brings God glory.
Annihilism does none. It is niether praticial, makes one long after God, nor bring God glory.

You're going to have to explain this one to me. Annihilation merely is a way to destroy sin completely and start over in the new earth. No justice, mercy, redemption or reformation is found in eternal torment. God says 'THe wages of sin is death but I come to make all things new' Man has been warned and has a way to not suffer the wages of sin. However, God in His loving mercy must destroy sin from the face of the universe. He is just and fair but also merciful.

Eternal torment says, 'God created a burning hell for no other reason but to punish sinners. Serve Him or suffer His first creation for billions of years for 70+ years of sin'

Makes me want to 'seek Him' and serve Him. Out of fear? Most likely.

 

[jgredline]

It is almost as if you are not reading my posts.

We have been down this exact same road before but for the sake of possible latecomers, I will repeat. I have argued in multiple posts (as have others) that "everlasting punishment" refers to the finality and eternality of the punishment for sin which is, naturally enough, death. You say that I do not believe Jesus. Do you believe Paul's words in Romans 6:23 about the wages of sin being death?

Everlasting punishment in the sense that jgredline believes is basically ruled out by other scriptures, such as Romans 6:23 and the huge long list I posted earlier in this thread.

But, let's suppose that we ignore those and look at the Matthew text alone. People think that "everlasting punishment" means unending conscious existence and nothing else precisely because they bring that belief to the text.

It is obvious that there is another meaning - that the punishment is death and that it is everasting precisely because the person is dead / extinguished / gone / annihilated forever - their non-existence will never be reversed. This is a perfectly reasonable interpretation and I challenge anyone to show otherwise, without making the obviously circular argument that punishment cannot mean extinction since it means eternal conscious existence.

In addition the view that I am proposing is arguably supported by the use of the term "everlasting punishment" versus "everlasting punishing"

So both your and my view are consistent with the text. How do we decide?

By looking at the Scriptures as a whole - and, as per the long list I have already published plus other reasons - the Scriptures teach annihilation.

Drew
What do the words eternal and everlasting mean to you?

 

[Drew]

What do the words eternal and everlasting mean to you?

I think it has been clearly established from the Scriptures themselves and what we know to be true about the world that words like "forever" and "eternal" are sometimes used with intent to exaggerate.

We know Edom has been destroyed at some point in history (if you think I am wrong here, please indicate). Look at the language of Isaiah 34:

All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.

The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood,
it is covered with fatâ€â€
the blood of lambs and goats,
fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah
and a great slaughter in Edom.

And the wild oxen will fall with them, the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.

For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.

Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!

It will not be quenched night and day;
ts smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

Clearly, fanciful poetic language is used to describe the destruction of Edom. On that basis alone, we might suspect that "forever" does not really mean forever here.

Now, as said, I understand that Edom was indeed destroyed. Even if the language were not so obviously poetic, we know that smoke does not rise from Edom today.

All in all, powerful evidence that the writers of Scripture sometimes use references to "eternality" and "forever" in a non-literal sense.

And besides, I have the latitude to argue, as I did in a recent post, that in the phrase "everlasting punishment" means that the punishment is death and that it is everasting precisely because the person is dead / extinguished / gone / annihilated forever - their non-existence will never be reversed.

In summary, I do not see that any texts have been provided that do not harmonize with the annihilationist perspective. Sure, we are forced into asserting that words like "forever" and "eternal" sometimes are not to be taken literally.

But, and I think this is where a huge difference exists between the two camps in this debate, we justify this belief by clear Biblical precedent - by referring to texts where we all know that "forever" has been used non-literally - texts such as Isaiah 34, Jude, and 1 Samuel.

 

[jgredline]

I think it has been clearly established from the Scriptures themselves and what we know to be true about the world that words like "forever" and "eternal" are sometimes used with intent to exaggerate.

Drew
I completely disagree...First of all, take a look at what you have just stated...What you have just said ''could'' be translated words like "forever" and "eternal" are sometimes used with intent to lie.
Stretching the truth is a fib...A lie is a lie....


Matt 25 :31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? 40 And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (αἰώνιος )fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιος ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιος ) life."

This section of scripture uses the exact same greek word (αἰώνιος ) This word means 1 without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be. 2 without beginning. 3 without end, never to cease,

So the next questions that comes up is where does this everlasting punishment take place? Jesus tells us that also…
This next section od scripture describes the Judgment of the Nations, which is to be distinguished from the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Judgment of the Great White Throne.
The Judgment Seat of Christ, a time of review and reward for believers only, takes place after the Rapture (Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:11–15; 2 Cor. 5:9, 10). The Judgment of the Great White Throne takes place in eternity, after the Millennium. The wicked dead will be judged and consigned to the Lake of Fire

Rev. 20:11–15. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So the next question that comes up is what is eternal punishment…
Lets take a look at what this passage says in the Greek…..
Here is Matt 25:46
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον

The Greek word for Punishment is (κόλασις) This word simply means Torment…
Now what is torment. Well, I would say being cast into the lake of fire is torment.
Certainly torment would not be anything les that what Jesus went through on his way to the cross… None the less it is for ''ALL ETERNITY''

Three other points should be mentioned. First, the kingdom is said to have been prepared for the righteous from the foundation of the world , where hell was prepared for the devil and his angels . God’s desire is that men should be blessed; hell was not originally intended for the human race. But if people willfully refuse life, they choose eternal torment…In closing I feel I need to mention this again…The Lord Jesus spoke of eternal (same word as â€Âeverlastingâ€Â) fire (v. 41), eternal punishment (v. 46), and eternal life (v. 46). The same One who taught eternal life taught eternal punishment (eternal torment). Since the same word for eternal is used to describe each, it is inconsistent to accept one without the other. If the word translated eternal does not mean everlasting, there is no word in the Greek language to convey the meaning. But we know that it does mean everlasting because it is used to describe the eternality of God (1 Tim. 1:17).

 

[Drew]

I completely disagree...First of all, take a look at what you have just stated...What you have just said ''could'' be translated words like "forever" and "eternal" are sometimes used with intent to lie.
Stretching the truth is a fib...A lie is a lie....

Are you serious?

Then I guess we have to believe the following literally:

From Psalm 98:
Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy.

From Isaiah 55
For you will go out with (A)joy
And be led forth with (B)peace;
The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you,
And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

By your reasoning, the word of God lies unless mountains shout and tree clap.

 

[jgredline]

Are you serious?

Then I guess we have to believe the following literally:

From Psalm 98:
Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy.

From Isaiah 55
For you will go out with (A)joy
And be led forth with (B)peace;
The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you,
And all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

By your reasoning, the word of God lies unless mountains shout and tree clap.

Drew
You have taken at least PS 98 out of context....I have not looked at the Isa 55 passage, but will in a second...But PS98The psalm consists of three equal stanzas. It urges singing praise to the heavenly sovereign (1) by Israel (VERSES. 1–3); (2) all the earth (VERSES. 4–6); and (3) all nature (VERSES. 7–9).this is s common theme through the Psalms...
David asks all the earth to salute its king with the glad shouts and music which are the proper greeting for a king upon his accession. Nature, too, should join the chorus of rejoicing. The sea, the rivers and the mountains should sing his praises....and for the record they do.....

 

[Solo]

I think it has been clearly established from the Scriptures themselves and what we know to be true about the world that words like "forever" and "eternal" are sometimes used with intent to exaggerate.

Drew,
The following list contains all of the instances where the Greek word αιωνιοις is tranlated eternal 42 times, everlasting 25 times, the world began 2 times, since the world began 1 time, and forever 1 time in the King James Version. Please point out which verses are exagerations of the word:

• Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
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• Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
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• Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
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• Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
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• Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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• Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
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• Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
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• Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
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• Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
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• Luke 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
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• Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
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• Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
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• John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
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• John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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• John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
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• John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
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• John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
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• John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
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• John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
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• John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
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• John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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• John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
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• John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
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• John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
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• John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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• John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
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• John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
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• John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
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• John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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• Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
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• Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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• Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
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• Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
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• Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
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• Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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• Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, According to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
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• Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, According to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
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• 2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
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• 2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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• 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
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• Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
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• 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
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• 2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
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• 1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
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• 1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
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• 1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
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• 1 Timothy 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
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• 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not According to our works, but According to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
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• 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
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• Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
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• Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs According to the hope of eternal life.
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• Philemon 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;
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• Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
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• Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
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• Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
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• Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
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• Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
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• Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
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• 1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
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• 2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
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• 1 John 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
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• 1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
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• 1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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• 1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
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• 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
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• 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
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• Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
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• Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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• Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,[/*:m:1d088]

 

[Drew]

Hi Jg:

This is an argument you cannot possibly win. To assert that to use the word "forever" does not really mean forever is to lie, is to eliminate the possible use of a wide range of literary devices (metaphor, etc.) which, by their very nature "lie" in the sense that they distort the literal meaning of words. I think it is obvious that the Scriptures are full of such devices.

And by way, rivers and mountains only sing praises if we deviate from the literal meaning of the word "sing". So you cannot have it both ways. If any deviation from a "forever really means forever" position is a lie, then any deviation from a "sing means to produce audible melodious sounds" position is also a lie.

 

[guibox]

1) First, jg, please show me where 'kolasis' by it's very nature and one use in the scriptures is to be rendered 'torment' as opposed to 'restraint' which is its proper translation?

2) Second, even if your rendering of 'aonios' in Matthew is correct in applying the punishment as the fire, it is still a stretch of logic to say that what is thrown in the 'punishment' (the fire) is eternal as well. Something you still have not, nor cannot prove. The word of God is against you on this matter and still you ignore it and accuse us of twisting or ignoring the word

3) Third, Drew is correct. Should you decide to refer to Revelation 14 to disprove what I said in number 2, "tormented day and night forever and ever' you must show that 'forever' is ALWAYS used to mean 'eternal life' and that the wicked are eternal as the righteous so 'aionios' does in fact mean 'eternal in life'.

4) 'aonios' in applying to the wicked in duration (though in the case of Matthew it speaks of a state) would not be 'eternal' because, unlike the righteous, the wicked do not have immortality or eternal life. Nowhere in Revelation 20 does it say that the wicked are raised immortal like the righteous are in 1 Corinthians 15.

You are reading your own views into the words while completely ignoring the biblical proof that provides alternatives.

 

[Veritas]

guibox wrote:
This is a grand cop-out to make the terms 'death' 'destroy' and 'destruction' mean merely a spiritual one or merely the death of the body while the soul lives on. The Bible nowhere supports this nonsense.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12-15

 

[jgredline]

Hi Jg:

This is an argument you cannot possibly win. To assert that to use the word "forever" does not really mean forever is to lie, is to eliminate the possible use of a wide range of literary devices (metaphor, etc.) which, by their very nature "lie" in the sense that they distort the literal meaning of words. I think it is obvious that the Scriptures are full of such devices.

And by way, rivers and mountains only sing praises if we deviate from the literal meaning of the word "sing". So you cannot have it both ways. If any deviation from a "forever really means forever" position is a lie, then any deviation from a "sing means to produce audible melodious sounds" position is also a lie.

Drew
I see that Solo has left you quite a list of by what by your definition would all be lies...I mean exaggerations....

 

[Drew]

Please point out which verses are exagerations of the word:

Here are the ones where I think a form of these references to "eternality" is not meant in a literal sense:

• Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
  [/*:m:99c49]
• Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
  [/*:m:99c49]
• Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. [/*:m:99c49]

Some comments:

1. Yes, I fully admit that, for some of the above, I "selectively decided that eternal does not really mean eternal" for verses that dealt with punishment by fire. Why do I choose to think those verses are not to be taken literally and yet I take verses about eternal life literally? I will answer that question if someone asks (and I have little doubt that they will). For now, I will state that I believe I can make a case based specifically on "Biblical precedent".

2. I would see the Jude 1:7 text as basically supporting my point - that the words "forever" or "eternal" sometimes are used in a non-literal sense. Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today. If one attempts to counterargue that this text refers to the "souls in Sodom and Gomorrah burning forever" and not the towns, one is left with the awkward task of explaining how it is that we are given an account of fire raining down on these towns and yet we are also expected to believe that Jude is not writing about this specific, well known historical event but is rather talking about the "souls" of the people in those towns.

Jude 5 says:

"Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe"

Are we expected to also believe that Jude is writing about souls here and not the physical deaths of unbelievers. Too much of a stretch. I think it is clear that Jude is talking about real world events here - the exodus from Egypt and fire raining down on S&G. If so, we know "eternal cannot mean eternal" here since S&G are not smouldering today.

I suspect that the "eternal torment" supporter needs Jude 5 to refer to real people (since they are destroyed and not subjected to eternal torment) and he needs Jude 7 to refer to souls (otherwise he is forced to deal with the fact that S&G do not smolder today).

Or he has to re-define "destroy" to mean "eternal conscious torment".

 

[Drew]

This is a grand cop-out to make the terms 'death' 'destroy' and 'destruction' mean merely a spiritual one or merely the death of the body while the soul lives on. The Bible nowhere supports this nonsense.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12-15

Hi Veritas:

I am not sure whether this is supposed to be evidence against the annihilation position or evidence in favour of it. It seems like the latter to me.

The position that I hold to (and I believe guibox as well) is that we all physically die and go into the ground. This is the first death. We all "sleep" and are then summoned forth at a specific point in the future. The unredeemed are judged and cast into the lake of fire and they are annihilated - the second death. This text perfectly harmonizes with this view.

What it does not harmonize with is the view that the unredeemed carry on in a conscious state of torment forever, unless of course, one re-defines death to mean the exact opposite of its nominal meaning. Or if one ignores the fact that in the real world, fire has this interesting tendency to consume, destroy, eliminate whatever is put into it.

I have never understood how "death", which normally connotes "cessation of life", can be made to refer to a state that seems to involve all the elements of living - sensation, thought, awareness, etc.

And I do not understand how fire - an agent of annihilation in the real world - is understood to somehow gain the property of conserving that which it is in the process of burning.

And people think we are the ones taking liberty when we suggest that sometimes "forever does not mean forever".

 

[Veritas]

Drew wrote in response to Revelation 20:12-15
The position that I hold to (and I believe guibox as well) is that we all physically die and go into the ground.

Agreed.

This is the first death. We all "sleep" and are then summoned forth at a specific point in the future.

Agreed.

The unredeemed are judged and cast into the lake of fire

Agreed.

and they are annihilated - the second death. This text perfectly harmonizes with this view.

Disagree.

I have never understood how "death", which normally connotes "cessation of life", can be made to refer to a state that seems to involve all the elements of living - sensation, thought, awareness, etc.

But you said it yourself in describing death "we all sleep". Sleep is a state that involves elements of living - sensation, thought, awareness, etc. Elements of living are alluded to in the verses I quoted "the dead...standing before the throne Revelation 20:12"

And I do not understand how fire - an agent of annihilation in the real world - is understood to somehow gain the property of conserving that which it is in the process of burning.

Its eternal (something we cant understand anyways), So, unending destruction.

 

[Drew]

But you said it yourself in describing death "we all sleep". Sleep is a state that involves elements of living - sensation, thought, awareness, etc. Elements of living are alluded to in the verses I quoted "the dead...standing before the throne Revelation 20:12"

First of all, I use the word "sleep" somewhat loosely. When I use this term, I intend to refer to an entirely unconscious state. I think that the scriptures teach the complete absence of conscious experiences after physical death until the time that the dead are called forth.

In any event, I think that you are stretching things when you imply that sleep is like eternal torment in that they both have "elements of living". We all know what sleep is like - at its most "active" it is an exceedinly pale copy of real living. I don't know about you, but when I sleep the situation is like this: one minute its midnight, the next its 8 AM and the intervening eight hours is a "blank".

So of course the analogy is not perfect. But I think that writers of Scripture very purposefully referred to the state after death as "sleep" Sleep is a state which is very close to "non-existence", as far as being a subject of experience is concerned. What better to communicate that the dead are in a (temporary) state of conscious non-existence?

The stuff about standing before the throne is entirely consistent with my view, since I have stated that the dead are called forth, out of their "sleep". Once they are called forth, they are no longer sleeping.

 

[Drew]

I really do not see the "eternal torment / immortal soul" supporters deal with a text like Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In order to make this text work with the eternal torment view, I think one is forced into one of the following 2 choices:

1. The word death has its conventional "cessation of life functions" meaning, but the thing that dies is the body - the soul / spirit, being immortal, does not die.

2. The word death refers to a state of seperation from God where full conscious existence is maintained. In this interpretation, the "thing that dies" is the soul / spirit, because it is this soul / spirit that lives on and experiences this separation.

Perhaps there are other options, but neither of the above seems credible to me.

If 1 is correct, then we have to deal with the fact that in Romans 6, Paul's rich theological treatise is really only addressing a relatively incidental part of man - the suit of flesh that encases his soul / spirit. The soul / spirit is presumably the real essence of who we are, since it carries sensation, thought, experience etc (remember what the rich man in Luke 16 experiences). Why would Paul be writing this rich treatise about sin, death, grace, and life and intend his "wages of sin is death" statement to not target the core of our being - our soul / spirit. The loss of the body is not really much of a loss if our essence really lies in a part of us that survives physical death. Not much of a "wage", really.

If 2 is correct, then we have a situation where death is reworked to mean almost exactly, if not exactly, the opposite of what it normally means. If "death" involves never-ending conscious existence, presumably with thinking, emotion, etc all thrown into the mix - this sounds an awful lot like life, albeit an unpleasant one.

At the risk of driving home the point, it is almost like the "the bigger the lie, the more likely it will be believed" idea. Death has been so dramatically re-worked that people lose sight of how much the new version deviates from the nominal "cessation of life" definition.

 

[jgredline]

I really do not see the "eternal torment / immortal soul" supporters deal with a text like Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In order to make this text work with the eternal torment view, I think one is forced into one of the following 2 choices:

1. The word death has its conventional "cessation of life functions" meaning, but the thing that dies is the body - the soul / spirit, being immortal, does not die.

2. The word death refers to a state of seperation from God where full conscious existence is maintained. In this interpretation, the "thing that dies" is the soul / spirit, because it is this soul / spirit that lives on and experiences this separation.

Perhaps there are other options, but neither of the above seems credible to me.

If 1 is correct, then we have to deal with the fact that in Romans 6, Paul's rich theological treatise is really only addressing a relatively incidental part of man - the suit of flesh that encases his soul / spirit. The soul / spirit is presumably the real essence of who we are, since it carries sensation, thought, experience etc (remember what the rich man in Luke 16 experiences). Why would Paul be writing this rich treatise about sin, death, grace, and life and intend his "wages of sin is death" statement to not target the core of our being - our soul / spirit. The loss of the body is not really much of a loss if our essence really lies in a part of us that survives physical death. Not much of a "wage", really.

If 2 is correct, then we have a situation where death is reworked to mean almost exactly, if not exactly, the opposite of what it normally means. If "death" involves never-ending conscious existence, presumably with thinking, emotion, etc all thrown into the mix - this sounds an awful lot like life, albeit an unpleasant one.

At the risk of driving home the point, it is almost like the "the bigger the lie, the more likely it will be believed" idea. Death has been so dramatically re-worked that people lose sight of how much the new version deviates from the nominal "cessation of life" definition.

Drew
I have answered this very question for you already. Go back and check it out

 

[guibox]

The fundamental problem is not recognizing the sin problem, what it did and what Christ came to accomplish.

When one believes in eternal torment, then Christ's deatha and resurrection was merely to save us from a hell that He created. (??)

What is forgotten is that sin brought death. Spiritual and ultimately that of existence. Christ's death and reurrection is significant.

Why did He DIE and RESURRECT in BODILY form?

He was an example (See Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15; 1 Thessalonians 4:14,15)

Christ died to sin and rose victorious thus defeating our ultimate death and bestowing eternal life.

NOW....

Applying this concept to Romans 6:23 in its opposing forms makes complete sense.

As eternal life for the whole man is given as a gift and realized at the resurrection, like Christ was....so the wicked remain in their sin and suffer the ultimate consequence of sin.

God didn't come to save man from hell...He came to save us from the separation from God that brings death. God is the life giver...with Him, we die. He came to restore that.

'He that knoweth the Son hath life, but he that knoweth not the Son hath not life'

'He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but hath everlasting life'

'And this is the will of Him that sent me that I should lose nothing but shall raise it up at the last day'

'My sheep know Me and hear My voice and I give unto them eternal life'

The wicked suffer the wages of sin: death because they 'hath not life'

If you choose to make 'death' mean 'eternal conscious torment of the soul' and 'death for the body' (i.e., a spiritual death) then you MUST apply the same logic to the opposite: 'eternal life' is NOT speaking of the afterlife but strictly the body in this life.

Such an absurd conclusion can only be reached by insisting that 'the wages of sin is death' means 'physical death' or 'spiritual death while the soul consciously exists'

Calling black-white is tame in comparison.

 

[jgredline]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,

The word that paul uses here for death is ''θάνατος''
This Greek word means 1 the death of the body. 1a that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended. 1b with the implied idea of future misery in hell. 1b1 the power of death. 1c since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin. 2 metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,. 2a the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell. 3 the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell. 4 in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible

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[jgredline]

Romans 6:23.. For the wages of sin is ''death''


Now lets look at vines for those who don't like strongs...
Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: Death,

Death
A. Nouns
1. thanatos (θάνατος, 2288), “death,†is used in Scripture of:
(a) the separation of the soul (the spiritual part of man) from the body (the material part), the latter ceasing to function and turning to dust, e.g., John 11:13; Heb. 2:15; 5:7; 7:23. In Heb. 9:15, the kjv, “by means of death†is inadequate; the rv, “a death having taken place†is in keeping with the subject. In Rev. 13:3, 12, the rv, “death-stroke†(kjv, “deadly woundâ€Â) i, lit., “the stroke of deathâ€Â: