What do you think?

[Solo]

Here are the ones where I think a form of these references to "eternality" is not meant in a literal sense:

• Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
  [/*:m:23508]
• Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
  [/*:m:23508]
• Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. [/*:m:23508]

Some comments:

1. Yes, I fully admit that, for some of the above, I "selectively decided that eternal does not really mean eternal" for verses that dealt with punishment by fire. Why do I choose to think those verses are not to be taken literally and yet I take verses about eternal life literally? I will answer that question if someone asks (and I have little doubt that they will). For now, I will state that I believe I can make a case based specifically on "Biblical precedent".

2. I would see the Jude 1:7 text as basically supporting my point - that the words "forever" or "eternal" sometimes are used in a non-literal sense. Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today. If one attempts to counterargue that this text refers to the "souls in Sodom and Gomorrah burning forever" and not the towns, one is left with the awkward task of explaining how it is that we are given an account of fire raining down on these towns and yet we are also expected to believe that Jude is not writing about this specific, well known historical event but is rather talking about the "souls" of the people in those towns.

Jude 5 says:

"Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe"

Are we expected to also believe that Jude is writing about souls here and not the physical deaths of unbelievers. Too much of a stretch. I think it is clear that Jude is talking about real world events here - the exodus from Egypt and fire raining down on S&G. If so, we know "eternal cannot mean eternal" here since S&G are not smouldering today.

I suspect that the "eternal torment" supporter needs Jude 5 to refer to real people (since they are destroyed and not subjected to eternal torment) and he needs Jude 7 to refer to souls (otherwise he is forced to deal with the fact that S&G do not smolder today).

Or he has to re-define "destroy" to mean "eternal conscious torment".

The question was to point out which verses were exaggerations of the word translated eternal and everlasting. The choices that you have selected are but three of the entire 70 times the word is used. It is also interesting that the three selections that have been selected have to do with everlasting fire and are considered non-literal instead of exaggerations.

The next question is: What is the indication that these three instances of the usage of this one Greek word translated eternal and everlasting are to be taken as an exaggeration or non-literal sense of the word?

According to John Gill's Exposition of the Bible concerning Jude 1:7 pertaining to Sodom and Gomorrah "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" we read:

• ...which may be understood of that fire, with which those cities, and the inhabitants of it, were consumed; which, Philo the Jew says, burnt till his time, and must be burning when Jude wrote this epistle. The effects of which still continues, the land being now brimstone, salt, and burning; and is an emblem and representation of hell fire, between which there is a great likeness; as in the matter of them, both being fire; in the efficient cause of them, both from the Lord; and in the instruments thereof, the angels, who, as then, will hereafter be employed in the delivery of the righteous, and in the burning of the wicked; and in the circumstance attending both, suddenly, at an unawares, when not thought of, and expected; and in the nature of them, being a destruction total, irreparable, and everlasting: and this agrees with the sentiments of the Jews, who say that "the men of Sodom have no part or portion in the world to come, and shall not see the world to come.''
  
  And says R. Isaac,
  
  "Sodom is judged (Mnhygd anydb) , 'with the judgment of hell'".

It is also amazing that the Greek word translated eternal and everlasting can mean "time without end" in 96% of the usage, but not in the usage where eternal fire is mentioned. Jesus is pretty clear in His teachings to the disciples in Luke 16 of the eternal fire and torment that exists for those who are condemned for eternity. The eisegesis of Scripture leads one down the path of deadends and requires additional pretense in order to fully devour such an interpretation.

The non-consuming fire of the bush in Moses' experience at Mount Horeb with the LORD has no conventional physical explanation, but instead requires a spiritual understanding given only by faith in God's word. All other explanations are unsatisfactory. Could this fire have burned for eternity? It does. The Holiness and Justice and Righteousness of God burns day and night forever and ever for eternity.

 

[guibox]

The non-consuming fire of the bush in Moses' experience at Mount Horeb with the LORD has no conventional physical explanation, but instead requires a spiritual understanding given only by faith in God's word. All other explanations are unsatisfactory. Could this fire have burned for eternity? It does. The Holiness and Justice and Righteousness of God burns day and night forever and ever for eternity.

And you continue to ignore is that Exodus says that the 'bush burned and it was NOT CONSUMED'. In other words, it 'continued to burn' and most likely would have for eternity.

So what happens to the wicked?

Psalm 37
Revelation 20
2 Peter 3:10
Malachi 4:1-3
2 Peter 2:6

All of these and many, many more say that the wicked 'will be CONSUMED' 'devoured' 'consumed away into smoke' 'ashes under the soles of their feet', 'burn up like chaff', compared to 'tares that are burnt up in the fire'

The exact opposite of burning for eternity.

Of course to weasel your way out of this you will insist that it is the body that this is happening too and not the soul. This doesn't work for the simple fact that the punishment is the punishment is the punishment. There is not a punishment for the body and another one specifically for the soul.

The Bible does't support this one iota. It is your insistence on imposing Greek dualism onto biblical wholism where your contradictions lie.

 

[jgredline]

As I have been looking deeper and deeper in this doctrine of annihalation, I am even more convinced of Eternal Life for those who are saved and eternal torment for those who are not.....Drew
I am still waiting for you to provide the context of those Folks whom you claim holf to the annihalist position............

HELL

The English word hell is quite unspecific in comparison with the biblical words which it often translates. In the Old Testament the word hell translates the Hebrew word sheol, which sometimes means the grave and sometimes the place of departed people in contrast to the state of the living. It was regarded as a place of horror (Ps 30:9; Num 16:33), weeping (Is 38:3), and punishment (Job 24:19).

In the New Testament there are three words which relate to the doctrine of hell. Hades is the equivalent to Sheol and is the place where unsaved people go when they die to await their resurrection and judgment at the great white throne. Hades is temporary in that it will be cast into the lake of fire. Tartaros (2 Pe 2:4) occurs only one time and describes the place where certain fallen angels are confined. Gehenna (2 Ki 23:10 and Mt 10:28) was a common refuse dump and a place of perpetual fire and loathsomeness, and the valley in Jerusalem illustrates the fire and awfulness of the lake of fire. Hell is conceived of as a place of outer darkness (Mt 8:12), eternal torment, and punishment (Rev 14:10–11).

The punishment of the unsaved is not annihilation, nor will they be restored after some time of punishment. In other words, the Bible does not allow for conditional immortality (final annihilation) or classic universalism (restoration after a time of punishment). The same word that is used for eternal judgment (Heb 6:2), is used for eternal life (Jn 3:15), and for the eternal God (1 Ti 1:17). If one of these is temporary, then the others must be too. Furthermore, the same phrase that means forever is used of God being alive forever (Rev 15:7), of eternal life (Jn 10:28), and of eternal torment (Rev 14:11). Again there is no way to escape the conclusion that if God is everlasting, so is punishment in the lake of fire. There is no annihilation and no restoration. Universalism today often takes the form of teaching that all will be saved without any kind of punishment. It is based on misinterpretations of Acts 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:24–28 and Colossians 1:20, but it completely ignores the biblical teaching of the diverse destinies of the righteous and wicked (Mt 25:46; Jn 5:29; Ro 2:8–10; Rev 20:10, 15).


Scanned from ''A survey of Bible doctrine;by Moody Press''.....

 

[Solo]

And you continue to ignore is that Exodus says that the 'bush burned and it was NOT CONSUMED'. In other words, it 'continued to burn' and most likely would have for eternity.

So what happens to the wicked?

Psalm 37
Revelation 20
2 Peter 3:10
Malachi 4:1-3
2 Peter 2:6

All of these and many, many more say that the wicked 'will be CONSUMED' 'devoured' 'consumed away into smoke' 'ashes under the soles of their feet', 'burn up like chaff', compared to 'tares that are burnt up in the fire'

The exact opposite of burning for eternity.

Of course to weasel your way out of this you will insist that it is the body that this is happening too and not the soul. This doesn't work for the simple fact that the punishment is the punishment is the punishment. There is not a punishment for the body and another one specifically for the soul.

The Bible does't support this one iota. It is your insistence on imposing Greek dualism onto biblical wholism where your contradictions lie.

The physical is not consumed by the torment of God's spiritual fire, but the physical is consumed by physical fire. When one concentrates on man exclusively from the perspective of the natural, physical realm, one will continually misunderstand Scripture as the Jews did concerning the spiritual plane of existence. I would hope that you would come to understand the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and seek His understanding and His wisdom as it applies to truth. God bless you in your seeking to know and please God.

PS. God chose the Greek language to record His word to the Non-Jewish nations for a reason. The truth of the Scripture has nothing to do with Greek dualism; however, Greek dualism might have something to do with the truth of God.

 

[jgredline]

Drew
Ok...Esplain zhis to me......

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ok, lets take a brief look at this section of scriptures....
I will be using your style of debate for this, so perhaps you will understand it better...Ok.
The crucifixion of the Christian with Christ means separation from the domination of sin over his life... The question in Chapter 6 verse 1, “Shall we continue in sin?†is answered by an emphatic no on the basis of our dying with Christ..... This “destroyed†the body of sin. That word “destroy†does not mean to annihilate, for if it did, then the sin nature would be eradicated, a fact that we see in people everyday....It means to make the sin nature ineffective. The word is used like this in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 of the man of sin who is “destroyed†by the second coming of Christ but who continues to exist in the lake of fire without being annihilated (see Rev 20:10). But our crucifixion with Christ also means a resurrection with Him to newness of living (Romans 6:4). Not only has there been a separation from the old, but there is also a new association with the resurrection life of Christ.... This is mentioned in every verse from 4 through 10. Union with Christ, therefore, not only breaks the power of the old capacity within us, but it also associates us with the risen Christ, thus giving us the power to live according to the dictates of the new capacity.....

So to summerize...
The fact is, Christians died to sin. The Greek aorist (past) tense for “died†suggests a specific point when the action occurred, at salvation. Death, whether physical or spiritual, means separation, not extinction. Death to sin is separation from sin’s power, not the extinction or annihalatin of sin. Being dead to sin means being “set free from sinâ€Â......



Time for a : break

 

[Drew]

The fact that Strong's and Vines provide a definition that is consistent with your definition really only shows that these person share your opinion. This is not news - the overwhelming majority of Christians believe this. I would hope that readers would be interestted in the reasoning behind the belief.

 

[Drew]

The next question is: What is the indication that these three instances of the usage of this one Greek word translated eternal and everlasting are to be taken as an exaggeration or non-literal sense of the word?

1. Biblical precedent - we know that references to "eternality" have been used when the intent cannot have been to refer to an unending time duration - Jude 7, Isaiah 34, 1 Samuel:

Then the man Elkanah went up with all his household to offer to the LORD the yearly sacrifice and pay his vow. But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, "I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will (B)bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever.

Obviously a real physical place is being referred to. Is Samuel still there? He would have to be if all references to eternality need to be taken literally.

2. We know from numerous texts that the wages of sin is death. I do not see Biblical precedent for "death" meaning eternal conscious existence.

 

[jgredline]

The fact that Strong's and Vines provide a definition that is consistent with your definition really only shows that these person share your opinion. This is not news - the overwhelming majority of Christians believe this. I would hope that readers would be interestted in the reasoning behind the belief.

Excuses, excuses...

 

[Drew]

It is also amazing that the Greek word translated eternal and everlasting can mean "time without end" in 96% of the usage, but not in the usage where eternal fire is mentioned.

Which is more amazing:

1 The assertion that in a small number of cases, the word "everlasting" is used in an exaggerated form (and not really that much of an exaggeration - everlasting fire can plausibly seen to be "lasting until its purpose is accomplished").

2. The assertion that all references to "death of the unredeemed" mean "eternal torment of the undredeemed".

Using your line of reasoning, the annihilationist plays with the literal meaning of a word 4 % of the time while the "eternal torment" supporter plays with it 100 % of the time.

Solo is arguing that there is "picking and choosing" going on here. And to a certain extent, he is right (although I think solid justification has been given).

We annihilationists cannot make a similar claim about "pickng and choosing". Why?

Because "eternal torment" supporters change the meaning of "death" in all uses of death (in respect to the unredeemed).

 

[Drew]

In the Old Testament the word hell translates the Hebrew word sheol, which sometimes means the grave and sometimes the place of departed people in contrast to the state of the living. It was regarded as a place of horror (Ps 30:9; Num 16:33), weeping (Is 38:3), and punishment (Job 24:19).

Here is Job 24:19

Drought and heat consume the snow waters,
So does Sheol those who have sinned.

What does Sheol do to those who have sinned?

It consumes them as drought and heat consume snow waters. Sounds like yet another text that supports the absence of conscious existence after death.

Here is Numbers 16:33

They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.

Unless "perished" connotes conscious existence, yet another text that supports the absence of conscious existence after death.

Here is Psalm 30:9

What gain is there in my destruction,
in my going down into the pit?
Will the dust praise you?
Will it proclaim your faithfulness

Unless "destruction" connotes conscious existence, yet another text that supports the absence of conscious existence after death.

I know that the intent of your post was not to address the state of the dead in Sheol. However, these texts directly contradict the claim that Luke 16 is a literal account. The rich man is in Hades, and he has neither been consumed, perished, or been destroyed.

 

[Drew]

The same word that is used for eternal judgment (Heb 6:2), is used for eternal life (Jn 3:15), and for the eternal God (1 Ti 1:17). If one of these is temporary, then the others must be too.

Even if this line of thinking is correct (and I do not think it is), the annihilationist will assert that, yes, the judgement of the unredeemed is eternal in the specific sense that the state of non-existence (death) which is, after all, the stated wages of sin, persists forever.

Sound like a distortion to you? Why? Because the judgement results in eternal torment and it is this that lasts forever?

The reader can judge if such an objection is circular or not.

As for justification for the position that the judgement for sin is death, and not eternal torment:

Romans 6:23
"The wages of sin is death"

Psalm 145:20:“The Lord preserveth all them that love him, but all the wicked He shall destroyâ€Â

Psalm 101:8 “I will early destroy all the wicked of the land, that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lordâ€Â

Psalm 37:38 - “But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut offâ€Â

Psalm 92:7 “When the wicked spring as the grass and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed foreverâ€Â

Proverbs 13:13 - “Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed; but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.â€Â

Proverbs 10:29 “The way of the Lord is strength to the upright, but destruction shall be the workers of iniquity.â€Â

Philippians 3:19 “Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly thingsâ€Â

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.â€Â

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume awayâ€Â

Proverbs 19:9 “A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perishâ€Â

Luke 13:3 “Nay, but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perishâ€Â

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever should believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting lifeâ€Â

2 Thessalonians 2:10 “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received no the love of the truth that they might be savedâ€Â

Matthew 3:12 “Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fireâ€Â

Matthew 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, ‘Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them. But gather the wheat into my barnâ€Â

Hebrews 6:8 “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.â€Â

Malachi 4:1,3 “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and th day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.â€Â

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works therein shall be burnt upâ€Â

Isaiah 1:28 “And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.â€Â

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume awayâ€Â

Psalms 104:35a “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no moreâ€Â

Psalm 21:9 “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.â€Â

Revelation 20:9 “And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.â€Â

Hebrews 10:27 “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigination, which shall devour the adversariesâ€Â

Psalm 37:2,9,22,28,34,38 “For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb...For evildoers shall be cut off, but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth...For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off...For the Lord loveth judgment and forsaketh not his saints; the are preserved for ever. But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off...Wait on the Lord and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it...But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut offâ€Â

Isaiah 33:12 “And the people shall be as the burnings of lime. As thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fireâ€Â

Proverbs 2:22 “But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of itâ€Â

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soulâ€Â

2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and periditon of ungodly menâ€Â

Matthew 3:12. "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaffwith unquenchable fire."

Nahum 1:9-10 "What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Matthew 13:40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."

 

[jgredline]

THE ETERNAL STATE
Evangelicals agree that the souls of all men will live forever in resurrected bodies in either heaven or hell. Unbelievers will continue in an eternal state of torment. The expression “weeping and gnashing of teeth†(Matt. 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28) suggests both suffering and despair, implying a continued existence of suffering. In Matthew 25:46 the terms “punishment†and “life†are modified by the same word “eternal,†hence if life is eternal, then of necessity so is punishment. Annihilation is denied in this verse; punishment continues for an endless duration. The account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19–31 also stresses the eternal existence of punishment. The phrase “being in torment†emphasizes the rich man’s continued state of suffering (Luke 16:23). One of the words for hell is Gehenna, the word being related to the Hinnom Valley which lay along the southern side of Jerusalem. The bodies of criminals and refuse were thrown into the Valley of Hinnom where they burned constantly, making the term Gehenna an apt one for emphasizing eternal suffering in hell. (See again the discussion of this under “Hell†earlier in this chap..)
At the end of the age the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire where “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever†(Rev. 20:10).
While there is not much said about it, it appears there will be degrees of punishment in hell. This is generally acknowledged from Luke 12:47–48 where the slave who did not know his master’s will and did not do it will receive few floggings, whereas the slave who knew his master’s will but did not do it will receive many lashes. Some also use Revelation 20:12 to suggest degrees of suffering, but this text probably stresses that the works of unbelievers will be deficient and will condemn them.
Finally, hell may be seen as “(a) a total absence of the favor of God; (b) an endless disturbance of life as a result of the complete domination of sin; (c) positive pains and sufferings in body and soul; and (d) such subjective punishments as pangs of conscience, anguish, despair, weeping, and gnashing of teeth, Matt. 8:12; 13:50; Mark 9:43–44, 47–48; Luke 16:23, 28; Rev. 14:10; 21:8.â€Â
Believers will enjoy an eternal fellowship in Christ’s company (John 14:2). The eternal dwelling places in the Father’s house are taken from the imagery of Jewish family life. When a son married, he added an apartment to his father’s house, and the son and his bride took up residence in the father’s household. Believers will enjoy that same family fellow ship in the Father’s household in heaven.
Heaven is also pictured as a banqueting scene (Matt. 8:11), emphasizing the fellowship, relaxation, joy, and happiness in Christ’s presence.
Believers’ eternal dwelling place will be the new heaven and the new earth (Isa. 65:17). John describes the new heaven and new earth in great detail (Rev. 21:1–22:5). Many would place the new heaven and the new earth as following the renovation of the heavens and the new earth, after Satan and man rebel against God (2 Pet. 3:10). This does not suggest the annihilation of the original heavens and earth, but a transition in which the heavens and earth are sanctified.
Hebrews 12:22–24 describes the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem: angels, New Testament believers (identified as “church of the first-born†), God, Old Testament believers (identified as “spirits of righteous men made perfect†), and Jesus. The New Jerusalem is pictured as a holy city, coming down out of heaven; many understand that the New Jerusalem will hover over the earth. It is a literal city because it has measurements (Rev. 21:16). The brilliance of the Shekinah of God will illuminate the city (Rev. 21:9–11). The city itself will be secure (21:12–13); it measures fifteen hundred miles long, wide, and high with the throne of God at the top (21:15–18). The foundation stones are adorned with various kinds of precious stones (21:19–21).
Above all, the blessing of the New Jerusalem will be that God will dwell in fellowship with man. There will be no need for a priest; believers will have direct access to God (21:22). Sorrow and the things that caused sorrow will be removed in the New Jerusalem (21:4,5). But Christ will be central there, and believers will serve Him and enjoy His fellowship for all eternity (22:3–5).

Scanned from ''The Moody handbook of theology''

 

[Solo]

1. Biblical precedent - we know that references to "eternality" have been used when the intent cannot have been to refer to an unending time duration - Jude 7, Isaiah 34, 1 Samuel:

Then the man Elkanah went up with all his household to offer to the LORD the yearly sacrifice and pay his vow. But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, "I will not go up until the child is weaned; then I will (B)bring him, that he may appear before the LORD and stay there forever.

Obviously a real physical place is being referred to. Is Samuel still there? He would have to be if all references to eternality need to be taken literally.

2. We know from numerous texts that the wages of sin is death. I do not see Biblical precedent for "death" meaning eternal conscious existence.

A misconception of the Scriptures from a "natural", physical perspective leads to false teachings such as annihilationism. Jesus gave all annihilationists the truth in Luke 16, and yet they continue in their unbelief. Jesus also gave the truth in Luke 24 when he explained to the disciples that he was not just a departed spirti, but that he was resurrected, as a departed spirit does not have flesh and bones of a "natural man." A spirit exists outside of the flesh and bones, and is more than just a breath of life.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Luke 24:36-38

Annihilationism is just a doctrine of the Neo-Sadduccees. The Sadducces did not believe in the metaphysical existance of man's spirit. Notice in verse 8 where the Sadduccees do not believe in a resurrection, or angels, or spirits. The spirit in this verse refers to man's spirit apart from the body. Notice that the Pharisees spoke in verse 9 that they could not find fault with Paul and were concerned that if a spirit or an angel had spoken to him that God was with him.

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. 7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. 9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God. Acts 23:6-9

It is important to note that Sadducees are theologically identical to Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, and H. W. Armstrong in their view of the nature of man. The Apostle Paul, through the Holy Spirit refuted them and sided with the Pharisees!

 

[Drew]

In Matthew 25:46 the terms “punishment†and “life†are modified by the same word “eternal,†hence if life is eternal, then of necessity so is punishment.

I assume that everyone realizes that there is a clear alternative position to the above. It is: "yes the punishment is eternal, since the state of non-existence will last forever - it will never be reversed". So let's be clear: the Matthew 25:46 text works perfectly well with an annihilationist take (all the more so since we have "eternal punishment, not eternal punishing).

I do not believe that "eternal torment" supporters have given any evidence against this alternative except to effectively say "it's wrong because the punishment is not non-existence, its eternal torment". That, of course is not a counterargument -i t is clearly a circular argument.

Now it could be asserted that we annihilationists are doing the same thing - claiming "our" interpretation but dismissing without justification the possibility that the punishment here is "eternal torment".

I would respond that we have countered this objection. I think that there have been many, many texts given that show that the end of the wicked is "to be no more", "to be burned away into smoke", "to be devoured", "to be consumed", etc. etc.

The only out for the "eternal torment" supporter is to claim that death means life or that it is only the physical that is "consumed", "destroyed", etc. The first option hardly seems credible and the second one begs the question: why all the dramatic "destruction" texts about a superficial physical shell and a mysterious absence of parallel statements about the fate of the fundamental essence of who we are - our immortal souls?

 

[Drew]

A misconception of the Scriptures from a "natural", physical perspective leads to false teachings such as annihilationism. Jesus gave all annihilationists the truth in Luke 16, and yet they continue in their unbelief

Given all the other texts that suggest that Sheol is a place of non-consciousness and given all the texts that describe the fate of the unredeemed as "death" (Romans 6:23) or "perishing" (some even make clear reference to the physical process of burning something away to nothing), Luke 16 stands as a tiny island on which the "eternal torment" supporter will plant his flag.

This is like a situation where anthropologists in the year 5000 dig up a copy of "George Orwell's 1984" and construct a theory where the real world in the year 1984 was as described in that novel. Of course, this only works if one totally ignores the gobs and gobs of other evidence that suggests that the real world in 1984 was not like that at all.

And just like that novel contains the statements, "War Is Peace", "Freedom is Slavery" and "Ignorance is Strength", the "eternal torment" supporter has to assert that "death is sensation", "death is existence", "death is consciousness", etc.

 

[guibox]

Annihilationism is just a doctrine of the Neo-Sadduccees. The Sadducces did not believe in the metaphysical existance of man's spirit. Notice in verse 8 where the Sadduccees do not believe in a resurrection, or angels, or spirits. The spirit in this verse refers to man's spirit apart from the body. Notice that the Pharisees spoke in verse 9 that they could not find fault with Paul and were concerned that if a spirit or an angel had spoken to him that God was with him.....It is important to note that Sadducees are theologically identical to Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, and H. W. Armstrong in their view of the nature of man. The Apostle Paul, through the Holy Spirit refuted them and sided with the Pharisees!

WE are the Sadducees?

My dear Solo, the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of the body. It had nothing to do with the 'spirit'. As a matter of fact, Paul admonished the Sadducees because they ddint' believe in the afterlife. Paul then went to great pains to show them that the resurrection was incredibly important for 'if Christ didn't raise, then the dead raise not and ye are still in your sins and the dead in Christ have perished'

Explain to me how this can be so when the dead would already be in heaven, Solo.

I would really like to know how the dead could perish in their graves..and then Paul goes to say that THEY WILL NOT PERISH....How? By resurrecting at the end.

The Sadducees denied this, thus denied eternal life for there is no eternal life without the resurrection.

Quit ignoring this important truth. Quit placing Luke 16 over the clear teaching of 1 Corinthians 15 that there is not life after death without the resurrection

The Bible is clear and you are ignoring it all the while calling 'black white and white black'. Jesus had very strong words for this theological abuse.

 

[Drew]

Jesus also gave the truth in Luke 24 when he explained to the disciples that he was not just a departed spirti, but that he was resurrected, as a departed spirit does not have flesh and bones of a "natural man." A spirit exists outside of the flesh and bones, and is more than just a breath of life.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Luke 24:36-38

Obviously incorrect reasoning.

Consider Fred who appears in physical form to Joe. Joe has reason to believe that Fred has died and is startled to see Fred and thinks he is looking at a ghost. Fred reassures Joe as follows: "Why are you troubled, look at my hands and feet, touch me, see for yourself - a ghost does not have flesh and bones".

Solo's argument is that Jesus' reference to a disembodied spirit implies that He (Jesus) believes such a thing exists.

Let the reader judge whether Fred's reference to ghosts is evidence that Fred believes ghosts exist.

 

[jgredline]

Given all the other texts that suggest that Sheol is a place of non-consciousness and given all the texts that describe the fate of the unredeemed as "death" (Romans 6:23) or "perishing" (some even make clear reference to the physical process of burning something away to nothing), Luke 16 stands as a tiny island on which the "eternal torment" supporter will plant his flag.

Drew
As has already been explained, death is the separation of body and soul....
so this verse you keep quoting is in perfect harmony with ''all the scriptures''

 

[Solo]

Nonsense, but then the Scriptures declare that you would look at the truth that way.

 

[Drew]

Drew
As has already been explained, death is the separation of body and soul....
so this verse you keep quoting is in perfect harmony with ''all the scriptures''

Fine. You are asserting this even though the nominal meaning of death is "cessation of life" and all its accompanying manifestations - sensation, thought, awareness, etc. The readers can judge the arguments presented on both sides and draw their own conclusions about whether this is a reasonable interpretation of "death".