"What do you want from God?" An issue of "belief".

[Orion]

Unquestionably, they are "hot air" to those who are conservatively Christian. They are not to those who aren't. But, of course, the common phrase is uttered, "until you have a personal relationship with God, you can't understand the reasons behind what you believe to be immoral". So, regardless of what I offer, it will be "answered' in this light. So why would I even bother?

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

So then what of the person who needs no supernatural acts

I did not make myself clear enough here and good catch nightmare.- I did not mean a supernatural act as in something outwardly happening for him to see to make him believe. I mean a supernatural act of God to cause orion to come unto Him, for God to give him a new heart of flesh and remove his stony heart, for God to give him a measure of faith, for God to give him a new spirit, to bring him to repentance and save him.

I 100% believe scripturally that salvation is a work of God that HE works in us, not that we step up to the plate and decide for or accept him for. So I was saying i agree that orion will not be differnt until a supernatural act of God to change him and bring him in happens and i am sure that will happen. No believer becomes such without God doing this supernatural work within them, although we may not need to see anything outwardly that is because of the inward work that God does.



Orion, about the quote that you recently came to that you posted, i would say about that, the problem is of your own self in your short life, in your humanity apart from God, you do not have any way to know what is just, what is right, what is good, you do not yet even know what real love looks like acts like, You do not yet know the true meaning of a higher purpose or of sacrifice. So how could you live good or justly now and answer to any gods later when you have not known the way of any god to apply your life to. If there are gods, or as i would say a GOD( and i will say from the way you talk, you sound as if you are sure in yourself ther eis a GOD, that you are even sure who that God is, but that you find yourself not understanding how God could be how he clearly is, that you find yourself not having the faith you have seen or heard of others having, that you find yourself feeling unloved by that God that within you you know is real and you just feel like you dont get it and ccant really imagine that you ever will)- anyways if there is a God which we know there is, then anything outside of Him is vanity no matter what you do of what you find to be good.

 

[Orion]

Let me make myself clear on this. . . . . . I no longer KNOW if there is any gods. I like to HOPE that there are, but I just can't say that it is true anymore. IF something happens, some sort of "supernatural giving of a 'new heart' that will make me believe", . . . there will still be lingering problems with what I find in the Bible, specifically, the Old Testament.

I know that you believe the incidents (that you once thought to be immoral) were just, because you have gone over to that way of thinking, but I really can't see how many of them CAN be justified, regardless of "how much faith the human (in question) showed to have". There are ALWAYS other (and better) ways!

 

[NIGHTMARE]

So then what of the person who needs no supernatural acts

I did not make myself clear enough here and good catch nightmare.- I did not mean a supernatural act as in something outwardly happening for him to see to make him believe. I mean a supernatural act of God to cause orion to come unto Him, for God to give him a new heart of flesh and remove his stony heart, for God to give him a measure of faith, for God to give him a new spirit, to bring him to repentance and save him.

I 100% believe scripturally that salvation is a work of God that HE works in us, not that we step up to the plate and decide for or accept him for. So I was saying i agree that orion will not be differnt until a supernatural act of God to change him and bring him in happens and i am sure that will happen. No believer becomes such without God doing this supernatural work within them, although we may not need to see anything outwardly that is because of the inward work that God does.



Orion, about the quote that you recently came to that you posted, i would say about that, the problem is of your own self in your short life, in your humanity apart from God, you do not have any way to know what is just, what is right, what is good, you do not yet even know what real love looks like acts like, You do not yet know the true meaning of a higher purpose or of sacrifice. So how could you live good or justly now and answer to any gods later when you have not known the way of any god to apply your life to. If there are gods, or as i would say a GOD( and i will say from the way you talk, you sound as if you are sure in yourself ther eis a GOD, that you are even sure who that God is, but that you find yourself not understanding how God could be how he clearly is, that you find yourself not having the faith you have seen or heard of others having, that you find yourself feeling unloved by that God that within you you know is real and you just feel like you dont get it and ccant really imagine that you ever will)- anyways if there is a God which we know there is, then anything outside of Him is vanity no matter what you do of what you find to be good.

Agreed.......

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Let me make myself clear on this. . . . . . I no longer KNOW if there is any gods. I like to HOPE that there are, but I just can't say that it is true anymore. IF something happens, some sort of "supernatural giving of a 'new heart' that will make me believe", . . . there will still be lingering problems with what I find in the Bible, specifically, the Old Testament.

I know that you believe the incidents (that you once thought to be immoral) were just, because you have gone over to that way of thinking, but I really can't see how many of them CAN be justified, regardless of "how much faith the human (in question) showed to have". There are ALWAYS other (and better) ways!

Maybe some of the things God did,,, was simply based on what needed to be done,,,,like I said until you can give 1 example,,,im kinda stuck as to what you could be refering to,,,,,,maybe God killing people???

Ok lets say there is a God,,,(which there surely is) do you ever consider how He feels when you utter such things as this???

I no longer KNOW if there is any gods. I like to HOPE that there are, but I just can't say that it is true anymore. IF something happens, some sort of "supernatural giving of a 'new heart' that will make me believe", . . . there will still be lingering problems with what I find in the Bible, specifically, the Old Testament.

gods??????????? No there is only one God.......Hope there are gods???????

O how hard do you really study???? DO you really search the scriptures out,,,,,or do you read something one time dont understand it and start doubting?????? Again without knowing what your refering to im stuck....

 

[Orion]

Before I continue, . . . you have to realize that because your religion claims "only ONE god", there is nothing but your own religion to go on. Other religions claim more than one. They don't have the definitive either. Just FYI as to how I view that topic.

When I say, "God would have to answer questions", . . . I am going completely under the assumption of fundamentalist Christianity, which states that all the things within the Bible, directives from God, WERE literally coming from God. I don't hold to that any longer, but for the sake of argument, . . . .

If I heard a god tell me to take my sister's little girl (I don't have kids of my own) up to a mountain and sacrifice her to this god, . . . I would completely refuse to do so. Even the suggestion, even if it was going to be changed just before the knife was plunged, is immoral. It doesn't matter if someone was WILLING to do so, to show subservience, the very suggestion is immoral.

This is but ONE example, and a very MINOR one at that, which brings up these sort of questions. If I had to reason such things, I would say it was the result of very primative people who believed that the gods (yes, as many other cultures believed in human and animal sacrifices to their gods) required such things.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

orion, i love you, i understand that you believe that even if God gives you a new heart that you will still have problems with certian things being immoral, But you wont. i dont expect you to believe me you have no reason to. but the issues is this, your heart now does not understand, that is why you need a new one to understand. There is no way you can have any clue how it will be until it happens.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Before I continue, . . . you have to realize that because your religion claims "only ONE god", there is nothing but your own religion to go on. Other religions claim more than one. They don't have the definitive either. Just FYI as to how I view that topic.

When I say, "God would have to answer questions", . . . I am going completely under the assumption of fundamentalist Christianity, which states that all the things within the Bible, directives from God, WERE literally coming from God. I don't hold to that any longer, but for the sake of argument, . . . .

If I heard a god tell me to take my sister's little girl (I don't have kids of my own) up to a mountain and sacrifice her to this god, . . . I would completely refuse to do so. Even the suggestion, even if it was going to be changed just before the knife was plunged, is immoral. It doesn't matter if someone was WILLING to do so, to show subservience, the very suggestion is immoral.

This is but ONE example, and a very MINOR one at that, which brings up these sort of questions. If I had to reason such things, I would say it was the result of very primative people who believed that the gods (yes, as many other cultures believed in human and animal sacrifices to their gods) required such things.

If I heard a god tell me to take my sister's little girl (I don't have kids of my own) up to a mountain and sacrifice her to this god, . . . I would completely refuse to do so.

Good,,,I would to,,,since Christ died,,,we dont need to sacrifice anymore,,,He was the ultimate sacrifice....Which means GOd would never ask that of you now.....

[quoteeven if it was going to be changed just before the knife was plunged, is immoral. It doesn't matter if someone was WILLING to do so, to show subservience, the very suggestion is immoral.
][/quote]

Thats why I asked you do you really search thru the scriptures,,, or do you read it and conclude before understanding.....

Do you know why God did that to Abraham?????? It was a Type or Playtype how I like to call it....

There are many types throughout the whole bible and this is one pointing to Christ.....

SO when reading Genesis 22 ,,,you need to understand that God is about to give you a example of what He will actually do later on the cross.....Isaac is a "type" of Christ.....

 

[Orion]

Ryes, . . . I really DO appreciate your words. :yes However, I don't want to be changed into a person who believes this (what I exampled), or other things in the Bible, actually WERE moral and justified. I am sorry that I can't see this your way, . . . and it would have to be a HUGE miracle for that to change in me. Thanks anyway.

NIGHTMARE, I have been in the church for my entire life and know about how people like to suggest that it was a foreshadow of Christ on the cross. I appreciate you bringing it up, but I can no longer buy that explaination. FOR ME, . . . I still must go with my own thought that the very suggestion, regardless of what it was trying to get across (as a point), was immoral. If I were Abraham, I would have refused to obey. I know pretty much all of the traditional Christian responses on this story, and other stories as well. As I said, . . . there are and were better ways of doing things. I would have hoped that an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent God would have done so.

Again, I appreciate the concern here. Really!!

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Ryes, . . . I really DO appreciate your words. :yes However, I don't want to be changed into a person who believes this (what I exampled), or other things in the Bible, actually WERE moral and justified. I am sorry that I can't see this your way, . . . and it would have to be a HUGE miracle for that to change in me. Thanks anyway.

I know you dont want to be changed into that person! of course you dont! i did not except anything differnt lol, i was the SAME WAY!that is because flesh is sinful and is completely void of truth. NONE of our flesh wanted to be that way. Every single person who does not have CHrist is so totally blinded that good is bad bad is good up is down down is up inside is outside and outside is inside but none of that matters because Jesus is the light and He will do the work and i am very excited for the change you will have and the life that will fill you and the joy and contentment and peace you will have for the rest you will come and remain with us in. When you are in darkness and do not understand you cannot desire truly to understand because you cannot even comprehend! and Once God changes you you will look back and have no desire to be the former way again! You will have such freedom, love, forgiveness, understanding, abounding grace. You will find the word of God a jewel beyond any this world has ever seen and the depths of that jewel will continually awe you. I thank God and praise Him now for His salvation that He will do in you. i thank him now for His blood that bought you and made you my brother in eternity even though it is not yet seen. :yes

 

[Orion]

I think I must end the conversation here, now. Your care for me is appreciated. I know you mean well.

However, what I see are many places (mostly in the Old Testament) that are completely devoid of freedom, love, forgiveness, understanding, abounding grace, and I don't foresee my assessment of the events changing any time soon.

Later.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I think I must end the conversation here, now. Your care for me is appreciated. I know you mean well.

However, what I see are many places (mostly in the Old Testament) that are completely devoid of freedom, love, forgiveness, understanding, abounding grace, and I don't foresee my assessment of the events changing any time soon.

Later.

God bless you orion i am blessed to have met you here even for a moment!You are written on my heart forever :D

 

[Orion]

You're very sweet, Ryes.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I know you stated you were ending the conversation Orion, but I joined a bit late so humor me if you would.

I just had a question for you. This question was important to me when I decided I had to jump off the fence and either believe or not believe.

Are you at a place in your life where you want to either definitively believe or to not believe? In other words, not knowing what to believe is not where you want to be and you want to get to a yes or no. Would love to know. Thanks!

 

[Orion]

Aero, you're free to ask.

"To believe or NOT to believe, that is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...." Okay, I'm back to reality now. Whether or not I CAN believe has been an issue for me. I am to the place where I don't believe I can "accept by faith" that which has been presented to me all my life. I can understand the concepts therein [the religion], but as for "having a personal relationship with God/Jesus", that isn't going to happen. My brain doesn't translate it into a useful reality. . . . . . and I'm not sure if it ever did.

What I would require of God is something that won't happen. If the belief part (that God is who people say he is) was answered satisfactorily, there are other topics that, in my quest to understand the bible, have come up in question. All I have to go on is a book (which I have read) and the interpretations/beliefs of other people on what is in that book. Neither are a satisfactory vehicle to answer my "belief problems".

Again, thanks for your input.

 

[follower of Christ]

We are punished for not being able to believe. A person can't JUST believe, . . . if they aren't made that way.

Then why do you waste your time even debating/discussing christianity and faith ?
Seems to me that youre just tossing time away better spent doing something else rather than arguing about things you think are real or meaningful.
The only possible objective for one who doesnt believe in even having this discussion is to try to cause those who do believe to give up that belief....which seems to be the goal of a few on this forum.
Do you honestly believe you or anyone else here is going to talk a TRUE believer into not believing anymore ?
Even the demons believe...even tho they are His enemy. Its unlikely that any amount of reasoning here is going to cause the TRUE believer to give up that belief....ie there is a lot of wasted time and effort put forth by a few on this forum and many like it. Time better spent on a hobby or making some overtime at work..kwim ?

 

[JoJo]

Orion, it sounds like you want to believe but are struggling with being able to believe. Correct? You could ask God for faith, but it takes faith to ask God for faith, but maybe only faith the size of a mustard seed. Have you ever just spoken out, "Lord, if you are there, reveal yourself to me!"

The relationship doesn't just happen. It grows and develops over time, as you get to know God and His inner workings in your life and in the world around you.

I truly pray God blesses you with His truth.

 

[Orion]

I have, JoJo. Many times, and with a very sincere heart.

FofC, the reason why I stated, a few posts up, that I was going to no longer post to this thread was because I HAVE decided that I'm about done here. However, very little of what I posted would be enough to cause someone to question, that's correct. I would hope that anyone would do their own research. I purposefully kept MY questions private for that purpose.

Having said that, the reason why I have decided to no longer post, or limit it is because, regardless of a persons level of piousness, . . . their position is no more valid than any other faith group. Muslims have all kinds of faith about Allah. . . . again, no mor valid than your faith.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Aero, you're free to ask.

"To believe or NOT to believe, that is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...." Okay, I'm back to reality now. Whether or not I CAN believe has been an issue for me. I am to the place where I don't believe I can "accept by faith" that which has been presented to me all my life. I can understand the concepts therein [the religion], but as for "having a personal relationship with God/Jesus", that isn't going to happen. My brain doesn't translate it into a useful reality. . . . . . and I'm not sure if it ever did.

What I would require of God is something that won't happen. If the belief part (that God is who people say he is) was answered satisfactorily, there are other topics that, in my quest to understand the bible, have come up in question. All I have to go on is a book (which I have read) and the interpretations/beliefs of other people on what is in that book. Neither are a satisfactory vehicle to answer my "belief problems".

Again, thanks for your input.

Thanks for responding Orion!

I ask because I had a feeling you are at a place I was at for 20+ years up until this year. It took me 20 years to get tired of riding the fence so to speak. I made a decision that I had to make a decision. I didn't put a time table on it but I started to research the issue. I read many books, talked with believers and friends. Tried a 60 day challenge where I tried to live the life of a Christian before committing.

The result for me was I came to God and Christ. Not saying that is what would happen with everyone. My recommendation for you, for what it's worth, is when you come to a point where you don't want to ride the fence anymore start your search for truth. I can recommend a few great books on both sides of the issue to get your mind going that you may or may not have already read. I would do the following when you are ready...

- Read some books on faith. Some good ones are The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, Finding Faith: A Search for What is Real by Brian McLaren and others. Reading helped me to logically put the issues together and test the facts for myself. I had to be able to make the logical jump in my mind. In a way this is me rooting my faith in something I can see, smell, touch, hear, etc.

- Attend an Alpha course at a church. They usually welcome non believers. They cover a range of great issues and encourage discussion and debate.

- Attend some churches. You may have had a bad experience with a church or churches in the past. I know I did. Finding one that better fits your style and preferred approach will open you up to exploring faith in a new way.

- Pray. Just give it a shot. You might be amazed at what will transpire. I have had some powerful experiences in my short time as a Jesus follower.

- Root your search for faith in the history of Jesus. This helped me root my faith to something tangible. It is hard to imagine something we can barely fathom sometimes...an all powerful God. It is not hard to imagine someone like Jesus. Christ made it real for me.

I hope this helps. I feel like you are conflicted. I sense you want to make a decision in someway but may not be sure how to. I also could be completly misreading the situation. Thanks for humoring me.

 

[Orion]

Again, Aero, thank you for your input. In case you didn't see from above [or other posts], I'm 41, and was raised in Christianity, and have been there all my life. I was devout to the point that I dropped a college level class because they dared to question the literalness of the Bible. It wasn't until I DID do a lot of searching that I am at the place I'm at now. I'm off the fence and on the side that isn't "a christian". Too many problems with it, and having to rely soley on "faith" is something that doesn't translate to my brain as being realistic. I wish I wasn't made that way, but I was. To pretend [and that's what it would be, pretending] that I'm having "a relationship with Christ" would be hypocritical of me. . . . . . a deceiving of myself.

IF Christianity is right, . . . it is probably the case that the Hyper Calvanists are right, and God has NOT chosen me. Nothing I can say or do will change that fact.

[disclaimer: I don't think they're right.] ;)