"What do you want from God?" An issue of "belief".

[NIGHTMARE]

I probably won't. I've heard the christian responses many times, . . . and I prefer people finding their own info out, if they desire to.

Its probably like 2 or 3 people that believe as I do on this forum,,,so most likely the responses you get from me will not be like the ones you have recieved from others.....Basically most christians are ignorant to the word..........

 

[Free]

Basically most christians are ignorant to the word..........

Some much more than others. :gah

 

[AAA]

AAA, good points! It comes from a mindset that "if you don't have a life changing experience, you were probably not saved". It is a very fundamentalistic doctrine. At one time I fully believed and agreed with all the christian doctrines, . . . well not the "filling of the spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues". . . but I fully believed all these things. Yet, they would say that "I wasn't ever actually a Christian".

JoJo is providing a classic example of the "no true scotsman fallacy".

Her personal, skewed definition of a true Christian including "having a relationship with Christ" is asserted authoritatively, but what is it based on? Let's see if JoJo can defend her position, or even define what she means by a "relationship with Christ".

If you felt that you did have a relationship with Christ when you were a practicing Christian believer, then I suspect that you would meet even JoJo's skewed definition of true Christianity, and she would have no basis to assert that you were not a true Christian, unless she can somehow show that your relationship with Christ was not the correct type of relationship (this requires her to specifically define what she means by a "relationship with Christ" and to show that this is a necessary part of the definition of true Christianity). I suspect that when you were a Christian (and I have no doubt whatsoever that you were a true Christian by the way), I bet you prayed to Christ ... I bet you believed that Christ loved you and would save your imperfect and sinning soul ... Is there anything more to being a true Christian than that really? Can JoJo show that a relationship with Christ really entails more?

I wonder how many personal definitions of true Christianity exist?

Would you have to be a Jehovah's Witness, or a Mormon, to be a true Christian? I am sure there are many, just like JoJo, who would advance those arguments authoritatively.

 

[Orion]

Free, pretty much my whole life, growing up, I never did those things (drinking, swearing, etc). I was afraid of the consequences, not only to God but to my parents, so I walked an upright life. Today, I'm not big on swearing, drinking, etc. My issues rest in the questions that I have.

My issues aren't with "is there a God". There may very well be. However, IF it is the one spoken of in the Bible, specifically the old testament, then many things would have to be cleared up/understood before I would be able to "accept him". These are things that humans can't answer because they can only offer their own opinions on the subject. For me, and many others, this input is insufficient. It isn't a slam on the person who offers it, and I appreciate those who care enough to interact with me, but their good faith won't be able to fully address these concerns.

AAA, more good comments. It is something I would like to know as well. Maybe these questions can be addressed.

 

[JoJo]

Wow, I feel special. :gah

Her personal, skewed definition of a true Christian including "having a relationship with Christ" is asserted authoritatively, but what is it based on? Let's see if JoJo can defend her position, or even define what she means by a "relationship with Christ".

Well, I definitely won't be using the dictionary as my authority. I mean, you can look up the word "love" and it won't possibly be able to fully define all aspects of even one form of the word.

I don't just base my belief in my own experience, but in others, and most importantly, I base it on the Bible's assertion that Christ sent His Holy Spirit to indwell in us. When we have the Holy Spirit living within us, we interact with Him. He speaks to us, guiding us, comforting us, loving us, correcting us... The relationship is undeniably real and present.

I might add that Orion has already expressed the lack he felt:

IF "a personal relationship" is what a Christian is, then I probably WAS just "an observer". I read the Bible, prayed, went to church, . . . but when I prayed, I usually felt nothing when I got up.

My entire point was that there is a very real difference between observing a religion and experiencing a relationship with Christ. Whether a person can be saved without that relationship is not for me to say. If I have done so in any way, then I apologize and retract any such statements.

 

[Orion]

Oh, JoJo, . . . you really ARE a sweetie. I wasn't offended by what you were saying. ;)

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Basically most christians are ignorant to the word..........

Some much more than others. :gah

:headphones

 

[AAA]

Wow, I feel special. :gah

Christ sent His Holy Spirit to indwell in us. When we have the Holy Spirit living within us, we interact with Him. He speaks to us, guiding us, comforting us, loving us, correcting us... The relationship is undeniably real and present.

You are special JoJo.

I guess that's what it boils down to huh? What if someone prays as Orion did, but doesn't feel the guidance, comfort, love and correction of the Holy Spirit? Is that person having a "relationship with Christ"? What if the person truly believes and prays, but never feels anything in response?

Maybe Jesus/Holy Spirit is not providing any feedback?

Maybe that person is feeling the same thing you feel but not recognizing it appropriately (attributing it to something else, other than Jesus/Holy Spirit) ... what do you tell them to feel? This undeniably real relationship: how do you define or describe it so others can recognize it?

I don't think you can define and describe it appropriately, so I don't think you can make it a prerequisite for true Christianity.

I guess another question is whether the relationship is with Christ or the Holy Spirit? That's not clear to me from what you've written. Which one is it? Is it both? When do you call it a relationship with Christ versus a relationship with the Holy Spirit? How is Yawheh involved if at all in this relationship?

 

[Free]

I guess another question is whether the relationship is with Christ or the Holy Spirit? That's not clear to me from what you've written. Which one is it? Is it both? When do you call it a relationship with Christ versus a relationship with the Holy Spirit? How is Yawheh involved if at all in this relationship?

I don't want to answer for anyone else but I will say that because of the Trinity, Jesus is Yahweh, as is the Holy Spirit (and the Father, obviously). Jesus is the God-man, God incarnate, so a relationship with him is a relationship with Yahweh. Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who is so close in relation to Jesus that he is also referred to as the Spirit of Christ.

 

[JoJo]

Thanks, Free. I agree. :yes

Maybe that person is feeling the same thing you feel but not recognizing it appropriately (attributing it to something else, other than Jesus/Holy Spirit) ... what do you tell them to feel? This undeniably real relationship: how do you define or describe it so others can recognize it?

I won't try to define it, of course. But I can try to describe at least a little portion of the relationship that I experience with the Lord:

God speaks to me, through the Holy Spirit, in thought (not audibly) with words of guidance, comfort, encouragement, affection and, often, rebuke and correction. He always knows exactly what to say, no matter what I'm going through or how I'm behaving. Sometimes He gives me an indication of something to come. For instance, when my teenage son was in ICU with cancer, God told me, "Your son will live." I initially questioned whether this thought was coming from God or was my own wishful thinking, but I chose to believe that it was from God. And if it had been from myself, I probably would have said, "Dustin will live." But I heard, "Your son will live." I was being spoken to, not speaking to myself. Anyway, my son did live and has no more cancer, and so the truth of reality has confirmed my belief. Some may call it coincidence, but I personally reject that notion and choose rather to rejoice in this revelation of truth. And it was nothing less than truth.

Anyway, that is just a sampling of the sort of relationship that I enjoy with Jesus Christ. He is just a very real presence in my life, a live-in Friend, if you will, among other things such as Provider, Protector, Teacher, etc. And this is just my own experience. I am sure that if you interviewed other Christians, you would hear some beautiful stories and probably better explanations.

 

[AAA]

I don't want to answer for anyone else but I will say that because of the Trinity, Jesus is Yahweh, as is the Holy Spirit (and the Father, obviously). Jesus is the God-man, God incarnate, so a relationship with him is a relationship with Yahweh. Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who is so close in relation to Jesus that he is also referred to as the Spirit of Christ.

Why don't you want to answer for anyone else? Is the nature of the Christian God so controversial that members of the Christian community take offence at variations? That is, has the Christian God not, despite all the words in the Old and New Testament, despite all the "personal relationships" and other revelations, yet made his nature clear enough that this topic can no longer be debated, or cause a serious stir?

What is meant by "Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit"? How do I know if I am (or you are) "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit or not?

 

[AAA]

I won't try to define it, of course . . . I am sure that if you interviewed other Christians, you would hear some beautiful stories and probably better explanations.

Fair enough JoJo, but if you can't define "relationship with Christ", then I don't think you can consider "relationship with Christ" to be a required part of "true" Christianity. How are you, or anyone really, going to determine who is a "true" Christian?

Let me share with you another story. My wife had an ultrasound at 10 weeks gestation that revealed a very very slow fetal heart rate, which portends a poor prognosis. A Christian relative of ours who claims to have a personal relationship with Christ told us that he had been informed by God that our child would live. At the next ultrasound, there was no fetal heartbeat at all.

There are surely many other stories like yours, and many other stories like mine. It is worth mentioning that our minds have a natural tendancy to remember the instances where the predicted outcome occurs and forget the ones where the predicted outcome fails to occur ("recall bias").

I am very very glad that your son lives. I am also quite sure that you will understand if I fail to consider your story as anything other than the weakest evidence imaginable that "relationships" with Christ are possible, and why I consider my story to completely cancel out the miniscule amount of evidence that your story provided.

We should also consider the implications provided by the evidence of Orion's story shouldn't we, rather than just say that Orion was never a "true" Christian?

 

[JoJo]

I am also quite sure that you will understand if I fail to consider your story as anything other than the weakest evidence imaginable that "relationships" with Christ are possible, and why I consider my story to completely cancel out the miniscule amount of evidence that your story provided.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. Even if I were to write volumes on my personal experiences with God, it seems there is nothing I can say to convince you that one can enjoy a very real relationship with Christ, so I will bow out of this conversation after this final post.

Just know this: unless can prove that something can't be experienced, it is unfair to discount or try to discredit others' experiences. And until you've experienced something for yourself, you most likely will never understand.


Orion, I pray that you will one day come to believe in Christ and be blessed to experience a love relationship with Him. I truly mean this.

 

[Orion]

Thanks for your care, hun. As I said, at this point, it will take more than just the words of people now. I put a charge up that can only be responded to by whom it is addressed. If it happens, I'll let you know. ;)

 

[Free]

I don't want to answer for anyone else but I will say that because of the Trinity, Jesus is Yahweh, as is the Holy Spirit (and the Father, obviously). Jesus is the God-man, God incarnate, so a relationship with him is a relationship with Yahweh. Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who is so close in relation to Jesus that he is also referred to as the Spirit of Christ.

Why don't you want to answer for anyone else? Is the nature of the Christian God so controversial that members of the Christian community take offence at variations? That is, has the Christian God not, despite all the words in the Old and New Testament, despite all the "personal relationships" and other revelations, yet made his nature clear enough that this topic can no longer be debated, or cause a serious stir?

You aren't fooling anyone with your questions. It is pretty clear that you are not trying to learn but are asking specific questions where you know there is disagreement. Is it because you think disagreement justifies your non-belief and you feel it necessary to point out the supposed errors in Christians' beliefs? Is it because you feel it is your duty to support and provide arguments for someone who is leaving Christianity, to make them feel that they are correct for doing so?

What is meant by "Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit"? How do I know if I am (or you are) "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit or not?

One who believes in the name of Jesus (and all that that entails), his death and physical resurrection, and chooses to turn from sin and follow Him, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[AAA]

Just know this: unless can prove that something can't be experienced, it is unfair to discount or try to discredit others' experiences. And until you've experienced something for yourself, you most likely will never understand.

1. My point is that you can't use the experience you call "relationship with Christ" to define what you consider "true" Christianity if you cannot substantiate the experience you call "relationship with Christ".

If you are going to claim that you can identify who is a "true" Christian and who is not, then the burden of proof is on you.

That is the reason I stepped into this thread. Everything I write below is much less important than that, my main point.

2. I'm not attempting to discredit your experience JoJo - only your interpretation of it. People have experiences like yours all the time. My thoughts come to me in English via some sort of internal "voice". Sometimes strange thoughts pop into my head, and sometimes they seem like rich and completed thoughts though I can't recall having put any time into them. My intuition often seems to guide me via vague feelings or emotions, and sometimes in what seems to be clear thoughts in English. These thoughts are often silly and wrong. Sometimes they are insightful and relevant. I don't attribute them to anything other than my own mind mainly since I can't see any way to distinguish them from what are my straightforward and clear thoughts. Others attribute their analogous thoughts to various other supernatural entities, each most often determined by what religious beliefs they grew up with.

The question is, how can you know that the mental events you describe are really Jesus/Holy Spirit/Yawheh interacting in a relationship with you, rather than just the workings of a human mind?

I suspect you have no way of answering that question beyond that you "just know". I suspect that what has been meant by the "leap of faith" that is required to have a relationship with Christ is partly at least, just making the conscious choice to interpret these mental events the way that you do. I also suspect that, had you been raised in Turkey, or Lebanon, you would likely make the conscious choice to interpret them as being due to Allah. People have been doing what you do for millenia and variously ascribing these events to interactions with literally thousands of gods. Each one surely required a "leap of faith" of some sort.

I don't think that its intellectually honest to do that. I don't think that leaps of faith are intellectually honest.

I'll tell you what I wish: I wish that there was a way for people who have experiences like yours, where they conclude that a deity has informed them of a future event, could record that information before the event transpires so that we could see how often they are accurate, and how often they are not. I wish that there could be independent and unbiased observers who could determine the outcomes, so that nobody could rig anything. Finally, I'd like to see if we could determine if the foretold events occur more frequently than one would expect them to occur by chance alone. (Remember, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while). This is, of course, completely impossible, so it remains impossible for me to disprove your conclusions. Its this type of thinking though, that would be required to really answer the question.

 

[justvisiting]

JoJo
I appreciate what you are saying in regards to God telling you something...and it's not necessarily audible. I have it happen all the time. Usually, some short term prophecy or word of knowledge. Something as simple as being told my cheque is not in the bank...and I say...no it must be...and I go...and it's not there. All Christians that are receptive to God, have stuff like that happen.
Also, JoJo
Do you ever feel the Holy Spirit as waves of goosebumps all over your body. Sometimes it happens...and I can't explain it. I just know God loves me...in spite of myself.
An unsaved person can only look for every reason why God is not there. A Christian looks for the reasons why God IS there.
God bless you JoJo
I know you are a believer from the testimony of your words. We are either for...or against...we are not in between...with our approval of God.
Because we love his Son. The Father also loves us...and dwells in us.

 

[JoJo]

JoJo
I appreciate what you are saying in regards to God telling you something...and it's not necessarily audible. I have it happen all the time. Usually, some short term prophecy or word of knowledge. Something as simple as being told my cheque is not in the bank...and I say...no it must be...and I go...and it's not there. All Christians that are receptive to God, have stuff like that happen.
Also, JoJo
Do you ever feel the Holy Spirit as waves of goosebumps all over your body. Sometimes it happens...and I can't explain it. I just know God loves me...in spite of myself.
An unsaved person can only look for every reason why God is not there. A Christian looks for the reasons why God IS there.
God bless you JoJo
I know you are a believer from the testimony of your words. We are either for...or against...we are not in between...with our approval of God.
Because we love his Son. The Father also loves us...and dwells in us.

I almost didn't come back to this thread, but I am truly grateful I did. Your words are edifying and touched my heart. Thank you.

To answer your question, no I don't remember every having actual goosebumps, but I can think of many times when I felt his warmth like a cozy comforter, so to speak. And I have felt so loved to the point of tears many times.

 

[JoJo]

AAA, Christians are not a scientific experiment. Nor is God. Faith cannot be proven, although God's existence will be proven in His good time.

Anyway, I truly do not wish to continue this debate. May God bless you with His truth.

 

[AAA]

You aren't fooling anyone with your questions. It is pretty clear that you are not trying to learn but are asking specific questions where you know there is disagreement. Is it because you think disagreement justifies your non-belief and you feel it necessary to point out the supposed errors in Christians' beliefs? Is it because you feel it is your duty to support and provide arguments for someone who is leaving Christianity, to make them feel that they are correct for doing so?

I was being a little sarcastic, but honestly, I wasn't trying to stir up trouble. I really am bothered by the notion that a powerful God who has presumably authored or inspired at least 2 infallible books couldn't just make this basic point clear.

Christians have killed other Christians over perceived incorrect interpretations of the triune nature of God.

So I'm not trying to stir up that particular debate. I'm just stating what seems to be a really obvious problem, but which other Christians don't seem the least bit bothered by.

I was once indwelt by the Holy Spirit (given your definition). Just as Orion's Christian faith was challenged by biblical confusion, so was mine.

Presumably, this is a place where these issues can be discussed. Really: I was not trying to stir up a debate heated debate about the triune nature of God specifically.