"What do you want from God?" An issue of "belief".

[Orion]

It was asked of me, in the "did A & E exist" thread, what I wanted from God. I had expressed that I no longer was able to "be a christian" because any attempt to do so (knowing what I do) would be "deceiving myself". So, this is my response to that question, so the A & E thread wouldn't be hijacked any further:

Something that he either can't give, or chooses NOT to give. Actual hard evidence, . . . . . and satisfactory answers to those biblical delemas that I have (and many others, as well). Even though God was an ACTIVE participant, in the past, . . . and it didn't matter that those who were human participants in it didn't need "faith" to believe, because they witnessed first hand, hence, making the argument of "free will and faith" worthless, . . . God no longer does what WAS done. We are punished for not being able to believe. A person can't JUST believe, . . . if they aren't made that way.

Even so, even what I just said (that God was an active participant....) is just what is spoken of within a book, written by men, with no real evidence that any of it is true. So maybe God never even participated back then.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

what biblical delemas do you have besides what you mention here? i take it from your post that you were a christian? if so where did your initial faith to be a christian come from?

i think your idea that in the ot people saw and believed because they saw and werent punished to not see because they didnt believe but this is not accurate.

Usually in the OT when people saw things who did not believe, they saw it because of others who did believe. For example the israelites leaving egypt and going into the wilderness saw many miracles, but it was because of the faith of moses that those things happened. and the israelties did not believe God because they did see those things- they did not believe God even when they saw those things! Seeing miracles did not build the faith of the israelites.

In Jesus day as well, people believed and received healings and miracles and because they believed and were healed others who did not believe got to see many miraculous things but still they did not believe despite what they saw.

Faith comes from God by measure and it also comes by hearing the word of God, so pray for faith and then hear more of the word of God. And by all means hear it from people with faith not those who have dead faith.Many people have the idea that if they SAW they would believe, but this is almost always proved wrong, even when they see they find reasons to ignore what their eyes see. But if you believe you need to see something then pray for God to give you a certian form of SIGN so that when you see that sign you will know that God has heard you and given you a sign to see.Then wait for the sign.

Ask something that you feel you will not be able to explain away. i hope you will give greater detail as to your situation.

 

[Orion]

I don't want to get into the specific things. I've debated them before and my mind hasn't changed on them.

As for "asking for a sign", I have done that on many occasions. I go to a church that is HIGH on "faith in Jesus", a pentecostal fundamentalistic type church. I hear the bible preached there. I have asked for faith, . . . . I have done what everyone (including you) has suggested, and have come to the place where, IF "God gives a measure of faith", . . . it wasn't given to me. If it had been, in my youth (I was raised in the church), it isn't the case now. I suspect that, in my youth, I believed because I was raised in it, . . . it was preached to me on Sunday and midweek services, and the "need to fit in with my church friends". That included the "going down to the alter and crying about my "sins". Even during the height of the Brownsville thing, I allowed myself to be taken over by the emotion of it all, . . . including the "feelings of the spirit which brought on the jerking motions". I even dropped a college level class because the professor said that "if you believe in a young earth, this won't be the class for you, and I will talk to you afterwards to show you why a young earth belief is wrong". It wasn't until I searched on my own, and began to look at biblical accounts objectively, that I discovered a problem my long held beliefs.

As for "not believing even if I saw a miracle", . . . there could be truth to that. It would help ME to, at least, know that God cared about me enough to help ME out, personally. Even then, there would have to be specific answers to the delemas I came to know about.

I hope that sheds a bit more light on this subject.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

ok i respect that you wont want to get into the personal things here, sorry for asking i am new here so i really have no idea what you have already said here before this. Can you say if the issues you have are scientific as in were you convinced by evolution to have biblical problems or are they not that kinda thing? It sounds to me(and i could be wrong) that the real issue is that you grew up around christianity but you havent gotten saved yet and come to know and believe him personally. Growing up christian doesnt really make you one, you can only go along and follow other peoples faith for so long as a child before a time comes when you have to come to personally know the Lord for real and it sounds like maybe you have not had that yet. I did not grow up christian and didnt know really any christians who lived totally for the Lord and i was a witch when the Lord saved me so the whole thing was knew to me and i met him personally and began to know him personally and see him working in my life miracles and in many divine ways very fast from that moment but before that nothing, nada, no clue, wouldnt have believed anyone who said they know him or had the things happen that now i do and know others who do so i understand at least somewhat what you are saying. i will pray for you though even though that may not mean much to you now.

when i was not saved, i tried to tell christians online how decieved they were, a number of them prayed for me and after God saved me he gave me a vision of a running list of christians online screennames that had prayed for me. i was excited after to go back and find them online and tell them i met the Lord and how he showed me they had prayed for me. the prayers of a rigtheous man(or woman can be too) avails much.

 

[Adullam]

It is better to ask..."what does God want from me?"

 

[Orion]

Ryes, as I knew it, I was saved, in that I believed that Jesus died and rose again, and I asked for him to "come into my heart and forgive me of my sins", then tried not to sin. As for "personal relationship", I'm not sure if I ever had that.

To be honest, that is one of my issues, . . . I CANNOT see a "faith issue" and a "personal relationship" as equal. In other words, having "faith" that a relationship is there AND personal, is something that does not translate within my brain. I've tried many times.

As for what I have personal issues with, some of them are scientific, some of them are based in morality. Some of them are based in "what the crap is that about?" I've wrestled with these issues for several years now, seen both sides of the debate, and reside on the non-christian side. I'm not necessarily an "evolutionist". I'm not a "Biblical literalists/inerrantist".

Adullam, . . . if God told me what to do. . in a way that was completely specific and personal to me, I'd still require several issues to be discussed.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Ryes, as I knew it, I was saved, in that I believed that Jesus died and rose again, and I asked for him to "come into my heart and forgive me of my sins", then tried not to sin. As for "personal relationship", I'm not sure if I ever had that.

To be honest, that is one of my issues, . . . I CANNOT see a "faith issue" and a "personal relationship" as equal. In other words, having "faith" that a relationship is there AND personal, is something that does not translate within my brain. I've tried many times.

As for what I have personal issues with, some of them are scientific, some of them are based in morality. Some of them are based in "what the crap is that about?" I've wrestled with these issues for several years now, seen both sides of the debate, and reside on the non-christian side. I'm not necessarily an "evolutionist". I'm not a "Biblical literalists/inerrantist".

Adullam, . . . if God told me what to do. . in a way that was completely specific and personal to me, I'd still require several issues to be discussed.

This is what makes me think that you maybe were not saved yet. you have have thought you believed because you were taught too but maybe it was not rooted truly in you. i cannot say for sure but i know that when the Lord saved me i knew him very personally right away and had faith in a moment that i did not have the moment before.i knew him like i know my husband or child like you know someone you see and speak with in person every day. i understand on the morality stuff, before i was saved i thought certian things in the bible were hateful and ridiculous that they seemed more imoral to me then what i thought and i could not see how what the bible said about certian things could be moral but it was because i did understand what love truly is for real or what is good and bad for us. after i was saved my issues immediatly changed without understanding yet how God was right i knew he was and later he taught me how his way really was the right loving moral way.

 

[Orion]

I appreciate your testamony, . . . but that won't be something that I will be able to experience. Unless something supernatural happens, it looks like my "being saved" will not happen. As for "understanding God's moral laws", I'd prefer not getting into that here, because regardless of whether someone can find justification in such things, for me, it doesn't change the fact that many things were completely immoral, and I find no justification therein, . . . and can find no true love in some of the actions. I honestly don't see how anyone could.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I appreciate your testamony, . . . but that won't be something that I will be able to experience. Unless something supernatural happens, it looks like my "being saved" will not happen. As for "understanding God's moral laws", I'd prefer not getting into that here, because regardless of whether someone can find justification in such things, for me, it doesn't change the fact that many things were completely immoral, and I find no justification therein, . . . and can find no true love in some of the actions. I honestly don't see how anyone could.

it doesn't change the fact that many things were completely immoral, and I find no justification therein, . . . and can find no true love in some of the actions. I honestly don't see how anyone could

I assume your talking about from the bible,,,, can you name one thing that is immoral....

 

[Orion]

I can name many things. However, I was wanting to ask Ryes for an example of that which she originally though to be immoral, and what has changed (in other words, how she sees them AS moral now).

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I can name many things. However, I was wanting to ask Ryes for an example of that which she originally though to be immoral, and what has changed (in other words, how she sees them AS moral now).

Ok but I got a feeling I beenm where you at,,,like for instance you said,,,,,,

Even though God was an ACTIVE participant, in the past, . . . and it didn't matter that those who were human participants in it didn't need "faith" to believe, because they witnessed first hand, hence, making the argument of "free will and faith" worthless, . . . God no longer does what WAS done. We are punished for not being able to believe. A person can't JUST believe, . . . if they aren't made that way.

I use to feel like that sometimes,,,,I would read Hebrews 11 where it talks about faith and says Abel had faith and brought a better offering or Enoch had faith or Noah had faith.....

Well I asked god how is that faith?????? You talked to all these people,,,of course if anyone hears a voice like thunder tell to them build a ark there going to do it....I would say these people got to talk to God,,,just like people got to see Christ,,,surely if God spoke to me on the daily basis as to where I could here Him through my ears and know it was Him,,, I could walk on water.....

It seems like its pretty easy to have faith when God is calling you up to a mount to conversate...

But,,,,“Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.â€Â
â€â€John 20:29

I have a feeling God has a pretty big surprise for us that make it thru this generation,,,,,but on a deeper thought....

Isaiah 54:8 "In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer."

Ezekiel 39:29 "Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God."

 

[Orion]

One can never fully know until it be revealed to them, and I'm talking, reveal in a way that only the dead will know.

As for "if one hears a boooming voice saying to do something", . . . that would depend upon what that voice is telling me to do. If it is incongruent with my morality, then I'm going to question, and probably not do it.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

orion,
i agree it will not happen until it is something supernatural for you. And i believe with FULL ASSURITY that it will happen, that something spiritual and you will be changed, He will give you a new heart, a new Spirit he will sprinkle you with water and cause you to walk after HIs ways, faith will be yours, you will be made new. I know you may not believe this now but i believe for you and God honours that.

As far as the things that i use to believe were immortal and now dont, i do not mind sharing those and explaining them but i am gonna pray about discussing that first because it is likely that my giving you the explinations and problems i had will not help you before you have that the supernatural change but if God wills i will share it but i will pray first on it and post later about it if he allows.

 

[widehorizons]

I think it is true that God doesn't act now as he did once. The events described in the bIble were God deliberately and openly revealing himself to humanity. That came to a head In Jesus of course. Now I think more faith is needed because things aren't made so obvious. One thing we have to do now is look back at the events described in the scriptures and with all the advantages of modern biblical study, decide how much of it we can believe. For me, quite a lot didn't happen the precise way it was described but the important thing is not so much what actually happened but the undeniable effect it had on those who experienced it, persuading them sometimes even to risk their lives for what they believed as a result. This is particularly true of the resurrection. I can't believe in a God who would punish anyone who honestly having faced all these issues and given fair assessment of them, decides then they can't believe. But I think God would want such people to continue to keep an open mind about what God can do today. Even if you can't believe the evidence of other people's experience, going on day by day trusting the God in whom you don't believe can bring some extraordinary results.
,

 

[widehorizons]

I know it sounds odd but what about trying to trust the God in whom you don't believe. Our intellects can so often get in the way - it is important to think through faith thoroughly and take note of all the arguments on both sides but in the end it comes down to personal experience and God, far from punishing you if you don't believe, will honour you for it, if you are able inspite of that, to put your trust in...well, call it Life if you don't want to call him God. Extraordinary things can happen when you live a trusting life even when you don't understand what it is your are trusting.

 

[widehorizons]

Sorry to say the same thing twice - as a newcomer, I didn't realise that there was a pause for moderation between mailing the post and it appearing!

 

[Orion]

widehorizons, you have an interesting take on the subject. I'd like to know what your "flavor" of christianity is. PM it, if you're more comfortable with that method.

Here's a quote I recently came across:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Marcus Aurelius

Thanks for your input, and welcome to the board.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

orion,
i agree it will not happen until it is something supernatural for you. And i believe with FULL ASSURITY that it will happen, that something spiritual and you will be changed, He will give you a new heart, a new Spirit he will sprinkle you with water and cause you to walk after HIs ways, faith will be yours, you will be made new. I know you may not believe this now but i believe for you and God honours that.

As far as the things that i use to believe were immortal and now dont, i do not mind sharing those and explaining them but i am gonna pray about discussing that first because it is likely that my giving you the explinations and problems i had will not help you before you have that the supernatural change but if God wills i will share it but i will pray first on it and post later about it if he allows.

i agree it will not happen until it is something supernatural for you.

So then what of the person who needs no supernatural acts

 

[Orion]

Again, . . . it isn't JUST about a "supernatural event". There are those things (as I have already stated) that would have to be addressed before I would be able to "begin a relationship".

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Again, . . . it isn't JUST about a "supernatural event". There are those things (as I have already stated) that would have to be addressed before I would be able to "begin a relationship".

Well since you already went thru it before,,,and dont want to go thru it again,, cool,,,,,but to me until you can produce one scripture that is immoral then its just kinda hot air......Im willing to bet the things you find immoral or based on things you dont understand yet...