What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

[Butch5]

First, let's consider what Jesus did say about the promised Holy Spirit:


Jn 14:16 -

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever


I have no reason to doubt the veracity of Jesus when He promised that the Holy Spirit would be with those who believe FOREVER.

Neither do I. However, he didn't make that promise to the unbeliever.

Sure. Believers fall all the time. But where is the specific wording that says that one's salvation will be lost IF one loses their faith? There aren't any.

This is an argument from silence, if something isn't worded just so it doesn't mean what it says. The thing is, Jesus and the rest didn't speak to suit our desires or the way want things worded. They spoke they way they would understood in their day and it's out responsibility to understand it that way. We either accept it or deny it, either way we'll be responsible in the end.

But, there is nothing in 1 Cor 10 about loss of salvation.

If you go back and study what Paul is summarizing there you'll see that there is.

But again…nothing about loss of salvation.



Absolutely nothing at all about loss of salvation. These passages in the OT are about God's temporal blessings, not loss of eternal salvation.

The passage shows that the Lord will leave those who do not abide in His commands.

Loss of blessings and reward is NOT loss of salvation.


You've proven nothing here about loss of salvation.

But there is, if you look back at what Paul is speaking of you'll see that they didn't enter His rest.

 

[chessman]

If Salvation cannot be lost then why would it even need a seal?

The point of 2 Cor 1 is the comfort and confidence we have in our salvation because of the seal and guarantee. Notice how some read the exact opposite into the passage.


Here are some reasonable questions:

If a man didn't need God to establish him (and keep him for that matter) then why give him the Holy Spirit as a seal and guarantee of that salvation with a promisary note from God?

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, ​

If God's promises of the man's future redemption through God aren't true, then why does Paul say they are true?

2 Corinthians 1:20 For as many as are the promises of God, in him they are “yes”; therefore also through him is the “amen” to the glory of God through us. ​

If Paul's hope in our sealed salvation is not firm, then why does Paul think it's firm?

2 Corinthians 1:7 And our hope for you is firm, because we know that as you are sharers in the sufferings, so also you will be sharers in the comfort. ​

Maybe Paul's confidence comes from the fact that it's Christ's suffering that has flowed into us for our salvation (not our own) and that's where Paul gains such confidence of our future salvation, huh?

2 Corinthians 1:9 But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, so that we would not be putting confidence in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead,

2 Corinthians 1:5 For just as the sufferings of Christ overflow to us, thus through Christ our comfort overflows also.
​

Why would Paul say such confident and comforting words and then turn around and say:

'God gives you a seal that you can break'? It makes zero sense to me given what Paul is telling them (us).

​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 Corinthians 15:1–2 (NASB95)


1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand(Positional sanctification),

2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain....

Stand~~
istnmi 2476 perfect active indicative

Perfect~~ Expresses the results of the action to continue to exist.

Indicative~~This mood is a mood of certainty with respect to the completion of the action of the verb.

" In which also you stand"~~we will continue to stand and with certainty we will continue to stand.

You are adding the meaning to 'perfect active indicative' that what is already completed and ongoing can not be reversed. I want people to know this. A simple Google search of perfect active indicative will prove you are doing that.

Now verse 2 of 1 Cor 15 can't take us out of our "standing". It actually is the third grade logic that says verse 2 takes us out of our standing. It takes some spiritual discernment to read vs 2 because vs 1 just set up our "continued standing."

Perfect active indicative simply means the standing is already done. And no one refutes this. What is being refuted is the addition of saying that the standing that is presently completed and ongoing can not be reversed and will continue forever. Just because something is completed and continuing doesn't also mean it will be that way forever. That is not what perfect active indicative means. Google it, folks.

I'm glad I got that off my chest. I've been wanting to do that for a long time. :yes

New American Standard Bible
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Honestly, folks, this is so broken, lol.
You don't agree with my doctrine so you're the one who is untaught and unstable, at the same time that I'm the one who is untaught and unstable because I don't agree with you. Time to file this abuse of scripture in the trash can.....along with the overused 'straw man! straw man!' defense.

New American Standard Bible
John 10:28~~and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Sure, all by itself, away from the counsel of the rest of the Bible, this means OSAS. But it's important to rightly divide the word. That means not quoting parts of it and using it out of context, and contrary to, the rest of what the Bible says about the subject.

For this passage we know that the Bible specifically warns that being saved forever is contingent on continuing to believe and enduring to the end; and that the 'no one' that can't snatch you out of God's hand is everybody and everything but your own unbelief. I want people to know this.

 

[FreeGrace]

didn't you read the rest of Ephesians 2?

Of course I have. At least 100 times.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10 KJV).

Faith doesn't preclude works, that idea comes from a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on works.

How does Eph 2:10 support the assumption that salvation can be lost??

Luther taught that works play no role in salvation but used Paul's teaching on works out of context. Paul was teaching his converts that it was not necessary for them to keep the Law in addition to faith in Christ, which is what was being claimed by the Judaizers. We also know that James said 'faith without works is dead.' Thus, no works, no faith.

Many people have used James' words WAY out of context. James was encouraging Jewish believers to demonstrate their faith to others. Otherwise, no one would be able to see their faith. 2:15,16 is an example of crude hypocrisy, not an unbeliever parading around as a saved person.

Believers are hypocrites WHEN they aren't demonstrating their faith to others in tangible ways. That was James' message.

He NEVER said "no works, no faith". He did mean "no works, no demonstration of one's faith".

 

[FreeGrace]

Neither do I. However, he didn't make that promise to the unbeliever.

You're missing the point. The Holy Spirit is given WHEN a person believes. I'm not taking about those who have never believed.

This is an argument from silence

Right. There are no verses that tell us in ANY clear and unambiguous language that one can lose their salvation. It isn't taught anywhere in Scripture.

if something isn't worded just so it doesn't mean what it says.

I'm not looking for "just so". I'm looking for clear and UNAMBIGUOUS language that teaches that one can lose salvation. There aren't any such verses.

The passage shows that the Lord will leave those who do not abide in His commands.

He leaves in the sense of loss of blessings.

But there is, if you look back at what Paul is speaking of you'll see that they didn't enter His rest.

Seems you think the "rest" is salvation. The rest refers to the "promised land", which was a land of rich blessings for the Jews. Recall, "flowing with milk and honey". And they failed to receive that blessings because of disobedience. What is LOST to the believer is blessings in time and reward in eternity for disobedience. These facts are clearly and UNAMBIGUOUSLY taught in Scripture.

 

[gr8grace3]

You are adding the meaning to 'perfect active indicative' that what is already completed and ongoing can not be reversed. I want people to know this. A simple Google search of perfect active indicative will prove you are doing that.

The perfect tense is an intensive perfect, which conveys the idea of a present state resulting from a past action. This emphasizes the present state of being, the continuing result, the finished produce, and the fact that a thing is.

The active voice indicates that the Corinthian believers produce the action of being irrevocably, eternally saved.

The indicative mood is declarative for a dogmatic statement of fact.


“because of which you truly stand firm,”

26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686



The indicative mood proves it can't be reversed it is a statement of fact. It is a mood of certainty. And I showed my source. Why not show your simple Google search and put up some evidence?

Perfect active indicative simply means the standing is already done. And no one refutes this. What is being refuted is the addition of saying that the standing that is presently completed and ongoing can not be reversed and will continue forever. Just because something is completed and continuing doesn't also mean it will be that way forever. That is not what perfect active indicative means. Google it, folks.

I'm glad I got that off my chest. I've been wanting to do that for a long time. :yes

John 19:30~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Finished~~Perfect tense and the indicative mood. A completed action with results that stand forever.

If you want to get this off your chest. Why not give us some evidence?

Honestly, folks, this is so broken, lol.
You don't agree with my doctrine so you're the one who is untaught and unstable, at the same time that I'm the one who is untaught and unstable because I don't agree with you. Time to file this abuse of scripture in the trash can.....along with the overused 'straw man! straw man!' defense.

I highlighted the hard to understand part. We may have to go deeper than a third grader to understand some of the things Paul writes. That goes for me too.

Sure, all by itself, away from the counsel of the rest of the Bible, this means OSAS. But it's important to rightly divide the word. That means not quoting parts of it and using it out of context, and contrary to, the rest of what the Bible says about the subject.

For this passage we know that the Bible specifically warns that being saved forever is contingent on continuing to believe and enduring to the end; and that the 'no one' that can't snatch you out of God's hand is everybody and everything but your own unbelief. I want people to know this.

The thing is, by using other scripture, John 10:28 is changed.

Never, does not mean never.

No one, means someone.

Eternal is not eternal.

 

[chessman]

Sure, all by itself, away from the counsel of the rest of the Bible, this means OSAS.

In this passage Jesus is specifically said to be speaking to them "plainly", ironically to your view that OSAS=no is taught in other 'plain' passages you claim are in the Bible.

John 10:24 ... tell us plainly!”

John 10:25-35 (LEB) Jesus answered them, ... " My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand...he called them ‘gods’ to whom the word of God came—and the scripture cannot be broken—"​

that the 'no one' that can't snatch you out of God's hand is everybody and everything but your own unbelief.

There is no "but" in the plain passage.

John 10:29 (LEB) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand.
​

Notice, if you will, that The Father is greater than all (there is no 'all but you) and it was and is The Father that overcame the sheep's inital unbelief. How so? Because His sheep listen to His plain voice. Here in John 10 (and everywhere else He speaks). We OSAS'ers don't believe He speaks plainly here of OSAS (as even you admit He does) then speaks against OSAS elsewhere (anywhere).

​

But it's important to rightly divide the word. That means not quoting parts of it and using it out of context, and contrary to, the rest of what the Bible says about the subject.

To "Rightly divide the word ..." is NOT dividing the words of God against other words of God. Talk about taking a phrase out of its context:

2 Timothy 2:15-16 (KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.​

Paul's telling Timothy and the letter's readers (us) to 'divide' the Godly words of truth found in the Bible to include John 10 (as heard by His sheep) from the babblings and profane (ungodly) words of some people. It's not a verse that allows for the Bible to teach OSAS in John 10, then teach anti-OSAS in Hebrews, James or any other book.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The GUARANTEE is found in Eph 1:13, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. But your view denies those very clear verses. ;)

None of these say 'you do not have to believe and endure to the very end to be saved'. We have to add your interpretation that 'sealed' means 'un-sealable', and 'promise' means 'unconditional promise' to make them imply that. The whole context of scripture shows you can not do that and stay true to what other scripture says about this.

 

[Butch5]

Of course I have. At least 100 times.


How does Eph 2:10 support the assumption that salvation can be lost??

It shows that there are works to be done.

Many people have used James' words WAY out of context. James was encouraging Jewish believers to demonstrate their faith to others. Otherwise, no one would be able to see their faith. 2:15,16 is an example of crude hypocrisy, not an unbeliever parading around as a saved person.

Believers are hypocrites WHEN they aren't demonstrating their faith to others in tangible ways. That was James' message.

He NEVER said "no works, no faith". He did mean "no works, no demonstration of one's faith".

I'm not many people,faith without works is dead, James asks rhetorically, 'can that faith save?' Obviously not. Thus if one has not works one has no salvation.

 

[Butch5]

You're missing the point. The Holy Spirit is given WHEN a person believes. I'm not taking about those who have never believed.

I'm not missing the point, I'm not talking about those who never believed either. I'm talking about those who discontinue in belief. Also, the Holy Spirit isn't given when one believes, He's given when one is baptized.

Right. There are no verses that tell us in ANY clear and unambiguous language that one can lose their salvation. It isn't taught anywhere in Scripture.

It's an argument from silence because the warnings are all over Scripture, they're just not worded exactly the way you want them to be, so you claim they're not there. However, as I said, Jesus and the rest wrote in the language of their day. They wrote in a first century eastern culture, not a 21st century western culture, so their wording isn't going to we the way you want it to be. It's up to us to learn how they spoke, not for them to anticipate how we would speak. They weren't writing to us they were writing to each other.

I'm not looking for "just so". I'm looking for clear and UNAMBIGUOUS language that teaches that one can lose salvation. There aren't any such verses.]

Sure you are. I'll bet if your boss said, you better come in to work today, if you want to have a job on Monday, you would know exactly what he meant. You know that the word "if" in his statement means if you don't come in today, you don't have a job on Monday. It's the same with the Scripture, you are saved, if, you continue in the faith. It's the same sentence structure.

He leaves in the sense of loss of blessings.

The passage says nothing about blessings and we know from Scripture that Saul became an apostate, that's not someone who has the Holy Spirit.

Seems you think the "rest" is salvation. The rest refers to the "promised land", which was a land of rich blessings for the Jews. Recall, "flowing with milk and honey". And they failed to receive that blessings because of disobedience. What is LOST to the believer is blessings in time and reward in eternity for disobedience. These facts are clearly and UNAMBIGUOUSLY taught in Scripture.

No they're not. Yes, the rest is the promised land, however, the rest was not the Jews entering the promised land under Joshua, It's believers entering the promised land under Christ. God said of those in the desert, they shall not enter my rest. However, Paul says if Joshua had given them rest, David would not have spoken of another day. After the Jews went into the promised land David prophesied of a day called "today" in which people would enter God's rest, thus showing that entering God's rest was not the Jews going in under Joshua. Paul concludes that there remains a promise of entering God's rest and he warns his readers to make sure that they don't fall short of it as those in the wilderness did. He speaks of the seventh day.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. (Heb 4:4-5 KJV)

God's rest is the seventh day, it's the kingdom, those who don't enter God's rest don't enter the kingdom.

 

[FreeGrace]

None of these say 'you do not have to believe and endure to the very end to be saved'.

That's correct!!!! They don't have to. All those verses do say that WHEN one believes, they are SEALED with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. No need to state the obvious.

otoh, there are also NO verses that say that "you HAVE to believe and endure to the very end to be saved". I know the Matt passage, which is in direct context of the 7 year Tribulation, so please don't abuse that verse out of context in this discussion.

We have to add your interpretation that 'sealed' means 'un-sealable', and 'promise' means 'unconditional promise' to make them imply that.

Let's just forget about unsealing, or breaking a seal, etc. That's a non-issue. The seal is actually and literally the Holy Spirit. He can neither be unsealed, nor broken.

If your view is correct, there should be some verses about God removing His seal, the promised Holy Spirit. Don't forget that Jesus PROMISED the Holy Spirit would be with "you forever". What does "forever" mean to you?

Oh, and please don't add some "but", as in but you need to keep believing in order for Him to be with you forever.

The whole context of scripture shows you can not do that and stay true to what other scripture says about this.

All of Scripture is in harmony about eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

It shows that there are works to be done.

Granted. But for what, specifically? Do you actually believe that one needs works to be saved?????!!!!!

I'm not many people,faith without works is dead, James asks rhetorically, 'can that faith save?' Obviously not. Thus if one has not works one has no salvation.

Well, I've explained it already. So all you do is repeat your mantra. Could you put forth an actual refutation of my explanation, meaning show me how my explanation cannot work in the text?

Repeating one's mantra doesn't add credibility. Please show me how my explanation of James 2:14-26 is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm not missing the point, I'm not talking about those who never believed either. I'm talking about those who discontinue in belief.

Well, you have no Scriptural support for your view. One is saved WHEN one believes, and "will not come into condemnation". With no conditions added. Jn 5:24.

Also, the Holy Spirit isn't given when one believes, He's given when one is baptized.

Paul disagrees with you.
Gal 3:2,5
2:This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

5:He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

There it is; very plain. We received the Holy Spirit by FAITH. No mention of baptism.

It's an argument from silence because the warnings are all over Scripture, they're just not worded exactly the way you want them to be, so you claim they're not there.

I will make this perfectly clear. I'm not looking for any particular word, but for verses that unambiguously state that one can lose their salvation. I assume that you are clear about what "unambiguous" means. None of the warning passages mention salvation, so it is only assumed to mean that.

As well, none of them mention rewards or blessings either. But when the whole counsel of God is considered together, it is clear that the warning passages refer to loss of blessings/reward, not salvation.

However, as I said, Jesus and the rest wrote in the language of their day. They wrote in a first century eastern culture, not a 21st century western culture, so their wording isn't going to we the way you want it to be. It's up to us to learn how they spoke, not for them to anticipate how we would speak. They weren't writing to us they were writing to each other.

All irrelevant. We have Greek language scholars who are able to translate what was written and spoken so that we can understand it.

Sure you are. I'll bet if your boss said, you better come in to work today, if you want to have a job on Monday, you would know exactly what he meant. You know that the word "if" in his statement means if you don't come in today, you don't have a job on Monday. It's the same with the Scripture, you are saved, if, you continue in the faith. It's the same sentence structure.

Sentence "structure" doesn't determine the meaning of words. Not now, not ever. The context determines how words are used and meant.

How about providing a clear example of one of your "if" passages that mean that we will lose salvation "IF" something happens? Could you do that?

The passage says nothing about blessings and we know from Scripture that Saul became an apostate, that's not someone who has the Holy Spirit.

Wow, really? Where did you read that???

 

[gr8grace3]

Sure you are. I'll bet if your boss said, you better come in to work today, if you want to have a job on Monday, you would know exactly what he meant. You know that the word "if" in his statement means if you don't come in today, you don't have a job on Monday. It's the same with the Scripture, you are saved, if, you continue in the faith. It's the same sentence structure.

Actually it is not the same sentence structure. Your sentence is a "maybe you will, maybe you won't come to work." A third class? conditional clause. I would have to look it up to be sure.

1 Cor 15:2~~New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

This is a first class conditional clause. Paul is saying, "If, and you are, holding fast the word which I preached to you..." It is the simple condition of the Corinthians.

Context will always determine the meaning of certain passages or phrases or clauses in scripture.

1 Cor 15:1 sets up their position in Christ. 1 Cor 15:2 puts them on their path to Spiritual growth or experiential sanctification in this life. Which ultimately is blessings in this life and rewards in eternity. But their salvation and standing in Christ is set in stone in 1 Cor 15:1.

New American Standard Bible
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The thing is, by using other scripture, John 10:28 is changed.

Never, does not mean never.

No one, means someone.

Eternal is not eternal.

Read the whole Bible and you'll know that if you stay in Christ 'never' really does mean 'never', and 'no one' doesn't include your own unbelief. We can't decide to just take a scripture out of the context of all that the Bible says about a subject and create another doctrine about it.

 

[gr8grace3]

Read the whole Bible and you'll know that if you stay in Christ 'never' really does mean 'never', and 'no one' doesn't include your own unbelief. We can't decide to just take a scripture out of the context of all that the Bible says about a subject and create another doctrine about it.

John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I am curious then. John 10:28 can legitimately be translated.......

and I might give eternal life to them,and as long as they stay in Christ they will never perish; and no one, but their own unbelief,will snatch them out of my hand.

By reading the whole bible, we can rightly change John 10:28 to this corrected translation?

 

[gr8grace3]

Read the whole Bible and you'll know that if you stay in Christ 'never' really does mean 'never', and 'no one' doesn't include your own unbelief. We can't decide to just take a scripture out of the context of all that the Bible says about a subject and create another doctrine about it.

This is what the bible says about being "In Christ."

Romans 8~~38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are a created thing.

Being in union with Christ, we share certain things with Him. One of them being eternal life, which is HIS life.

1 John 5:11 (ESV)
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

John 10:28 (KJV 1900)
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[FreeGrace]

John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I am curious then. John 10:28 can legitimately be translated.......

and I might give eternal life to them,and as long as they stay in Christ they will never perish; and no one, but their own unbelief,will snatch them out of my hand.

By reading the whole bible, we can rightly change John 10:28 to this corrected translation?

Sadly, those who reject eternal security really do believe that is what Jesus REALLY meant in John 10:28. It's all based on the continuance of faith, regardless of the FACT that there aren't any verses that condition salvation or eternal life on continued faith. It is just a very strong bias of theirs, and they read all of Scripture through the lens of that bias.

Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved clears up the whole deal. Paul told him to "believe (aorist tense) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE future tense) saved."

We know the aorist tense ignores duration of time. It is only interested in a "point in time". Paul was, therefore, actually telling the jailer that when he believed in a point in time, he would be saved.

I've yet to find anyone who rejects eternal security to even try to exegete Acts 16:31.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what the bible says about being "In Christ."

Romans 8~~38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are a created thing.

This is a very powerful passage on eternal security. I find that the phrase "nor things present, nor things to come" in v.38 is extremely powerful. What Paul is saying by this phrase is that nothing that may occur in the future can separate us from the love of Christ. He's covering all possibilities in that phrase.

Which would include even those who, like the second soil, only believed "for a while" and then fell away. That is clearly covered by "nor things to come", or whatever happens in the future.

Being in union with Christ, we share certain things with Him. One of them being eternal life, which is HIS life.

1 John 5:11 (ESV)
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

John 10:28 (KJV 1900)
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Sadly, they think they can "snatch" themselves out of the Father's hand, and break the union with Christ, which is "bonded" by the seal, the Holy Spirit of Promise, FOR the day of redemption.

I don't know why they ignore such clear wording; at the moment one believes, they are sealed FOR the day of redemption.

 

[Butch5]

Granted. But for what, specifically? Do you actually believe that one needs works to be saved?????!!!!!

Yes, because that's what the Scriptures teach. Read the last parable in Mathew 25

Well, I've explained it already. So all you do is repeat your mantra. Could you put forth an actual refutation of my explanation, meaning show me how my explanation cannot work in the text?

Repeating one's mantra doesn't add credibility. Please show me how my explanation of James 2:14-26 is wrong.

I already did. Faith if it has no works is dead. Dead faith cannot produce works. The argument that faith produces works doesn't work. A dead faith can't produce anything, in order for faith to be alive it must have works. I think I've already pointed out that James said, 'I show my faith out of my works.' How can works be the products of faith if faith comes our of works? They can't be.