What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

[gr8grace3]

It's interesting that you would bring up context and then insert an idea that is not in the context
Paul said nothing of blessing or rewards here or in eternity. You're saved if you continue,' there's nothing hard about that. You guys keep bringing up rewards about passages that say nothing of rewards. However, as I've already pointed twice, when Scripture speaks of reward from Christ it's singular not plural and the Scriptures say that reward is salvation. So, even though the passages don't speak of rewards, you're claiming they do still doesn't help you because the reward that is promised is salvation. So, if it's a loss of reward as you claim then salvation is lost, either way the outcome is the same.

It is a first class conditional clause.

1 Cor 15:2~~New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if(and You ARE) you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Is it not a first class conditional clause? http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm

 

[gr8grace3]

You're correct. The perfect tense says nothing about the future.

The emphasis is on the continued results from the past action. A completed action. This is also in the intensive perfect tense.......

John 19:30~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!"(intensive perfect) And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

So, it is not permanently "finished?"

 

[gr8grace3]

But what's the context?

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: (Joh 10:1 KJV)

That's why Jesus says no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. The passage is talking about thieves. It's not addressing the issue of a person turning from the faith. This is why I keep going back the subject of proper reasoning. We can take all kinds of passages and pull them from their context and make them appear to say what we want them to say.

So I will try again to get a corrected translation of John 10:28.

New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Should we translate this verse to the correct version of.....

and I might give eternal life to them, and they will never perish if they stay in Christ; and their unbelief will snatch them out of my hand, only the thief will not snatch them out of my hand.

 

[FreeGrace]

If that was so, I would expect James to use an example of someone who was justified in man’s eyes.

His whole point in 2:14-26 is that one cannot be justified in man's eyes IF they don't demonstrate their faith. v.15-16 is a clear example of one who would NOT be justified in the eyes of others. They're just a hypocrite.

Remember, James, the half brother of Jesus, was quite familiar with Jesus' frequent use of the word "hypocrites!" directed to Pharisees. Why would any believer want to be associated with the nonsense of the Pharisees?

However, in the example James uses no one was there but Abraham, Isaac, and God. As a matter of fact Abraham told the others to stay back and wait for him to return.

Well, you and I know about the story. So, as a matter of fact, because it was written down, it becomes an example of being justified in the eyes of others.

Do you think God needs to see one's faith in action in order to know they have faith????

So how exactly is that being justified in man’s eyes.

It would be the exact opposite of being a hypocrite.

If you read the story it was because Abraham obeyed God that God swore the oath to Him. No, James’ isn’t talking about man’s eyes as there was no one there but the three.

That you even know about it refutes your idea.

Here are some verses to think about (NASB):
2 Cor 8:21 - for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

Rom 12:17 - Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

Rom 14:18 - For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

1 John 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. Directly relates to James 2:15,16

1 Thess 4:12 - so that you will behave properly toward outsiders (no hypocrisy) and not be in any need.

Without a doubt, Scripture is clear about how believers are to live their lives in front of others.

 

[FreeGrace]

My point is that there aren’t three was to be saved.

This doesn't make sense. What are you trying to say here?

My point is that an engagement isn’t a marriage. An engagement can be broken off.

So, we're not saved until the marriage??? Wrong. Paul told the jailer that WHEN he believed in a point in time (aorist tense) he WOULD BE (future tense) be saved. Jesus said that WHEN one believes they HAVE PASSED (past tense) from (spiritual) death TO (eternal) life. That means they are saved WHEN they believe. Not some future date, as you assume.

Do you know what else Paul said to the Jailer? No, you don’t, so you don’t what Paul told the Jailer about how to be saved.

I know EXACTLY what Paul told the jailer in answer to the jailer's question. What is missing from what Luke recorded in Acts 16:31??? Nothing.

If one looks carefully at v.32, they will realize that what else Paul spoke was also for "his house", meaning his family.

Your argument from what isn't written is flimsy. We know what was written, and it answers the jailer's question directly and completely.

Why do you want to add works to the way to be saved?? Esp since paul refuted that idea in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

That’s why I said to use that one verse as an end all of salvation is an argument from silence. I think it’s highly likely that Paul told the jailer what it meant to believe on Jesus. Part of the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be baptized.

Then why did Paul say this:
1 Cor 1:17 - For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. NASB

Why did Paul make a deal out of NOT baptizing people, but preaching the gospel. Your point is refuted by Paul.

Further, Peter refutes your assumption in 1 Pet 3:21 - Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ NASB

The phrase "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" refers to literal water. It isn't water baptism that saves, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves. And there is no water involved in that baptism. Just like the "baptism of Moses" in the sea, per 1 Cor 10. The word essentially indicates an identification. The baptism of Jesus refers to His identification with the Father's plan for mankind; that He would go to the cross for the sins of mankind.

Water baptism is a ritual to demonstrate that those who believe are identified with Christ.

What I’m saying is that we only have one sentence from Luke about what Paul said, Paul could have spent hours telling the jailer what it means to believe on the Lord Jesus.

So, where ELSE in Scripture do we find the "rest of the story" about what it means to believe? All of us can research the word in the Greek and understand its meaning. It means essentially to trust fully. All focus is on Christ and what He did for us on the cross, and what He promises for those who believe (He saves them).

We have one summary statement by Luke. To take a single passage and claim this is the end all on the issue is illogical, especially when we have other writings from Paul that go into more detail about what it means to believe on the Lord Jesus

OK, show me some passages that indicate what believing means to you.

 

[FreeGrace]

So I will try again to get a corrected translation of John 10:28.

New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Should we translate this verse to the correct version of.....

and I might give eternal life to them, and they will never perish if they stay in Christ; and their unbelief will snatch them out of my hand, only the thief will not snatch them out of my hand.

That's exactly what the anti-eternal security crowd believes it means. And they will claim it's "crystal clear" and unambiguous as well.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is a first class conditional clause.

1 Cor 15:2~~New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if(and You ARE) you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Is it not a first class conditional clause? http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm

Question for you, gr8grace3: how do you determine which class is meant? My lexicon doesn't indicate.

Thanks.

 

[gr8grace3]

That's exactly what the anti-eternal security crowd believes it means. And they will claim it's "crystal clear" and unambiguous as well.

I agree. Really though, If one is reading their posts close, the list for loss of salvation is much, much more then " losing faith."

If the topic is Losing faith, their post will also sneak in ,"If you don't have the fruits of the Spirit you will lose salvation."

If the topic is "not having the fruits of the Spirit you will lose salvation." their post will sneak in," If you sin ________ you will lose salvation."

If the topic is ," If you sin________ you will lose salvation." And their post will sneak in ,"If you don't have works you will lose salvation."....the List goes on and on.

John 10:28's clear message becomes a 3 page verse, that indicates it is just about impossible to be saved and stay saved.

We have countless CLEAR scriptures that it is Grace through faith for salvation. Just the way it is attacked in this world should give one pause that it is true.

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree. Really though, If one is reading their posts close, the list for loss of salvation is much, much more then " losing faith."

If the topic is Losing faith, their post will also sneak in ,"If you don't have the fruits of the Spirit you will lose salvation."

If the topic is "not having the fruits of the Spirit you will lose salvation." their post will sneak in," If you sin ________ you will lose salvation."

If the topic is ," If you sin________ you will lose salvation." And their post will sneak in ,"If you don't have works you will lose salvation."....the List goes on and on.

John 10:28's clear message becomes a 3 page verse, that indicates it is just about impossible to be saved and stay saved.

We have countless CLEAR scriptures that it is Grace through faith for salvation. Just the way it is attacked in this world should give one pause that it is true.

Amen!!

 

[gr8grace3]

Question for you, gr8grace3: how do you determine which class is meant? My lexicon doesn't indicate.

Thanks.

I am no expert. But as you know, context determines most things.

1 Cor 15:2~~New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Paul sets His premise on the Gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ And his "word" that he(Paul) preached to the Corinthians. 1 Cor 15:1 is their salvation and they received the "word/Gospel" that Paul taught. And He goes on to reiterate what his "word" was in 1 Cor 15:3-11.

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

"Unless you believed in vain" clues us in. Paul Knows that they received his word. Paul Knows that they believed. 1 Cor 15:11. So Paul knows that they are holding fast the "word/Gospel" which he preached......1 Cor 15:11 shows us this.

He KNOWS they didn't believe in vain....So he knows they hold fast his word. So the context tells us that it is a first class conditional clause.

Its a long study, but this explains it a lot better then I can!

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...greek/text/boyer-firstclassconditions-gtj.pdf

 

[gr8grace3]

Question for you, gr8grace3: how do you determine which class is meant? My lexicon doesn't indicate.

Thanks.

Just looking into it a bit deeper, one more thing that Paul states~~ 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

One more example of Paul KNOWING that "believing" is not in vain. And context wise, It is probably better proof for the 1st class conditional clause.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am no expert. But as you know, context determines most things.

1 Cor 15:2~~New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Paul sets His premise on the Gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ And his "word" that he(Paul) preached to the Corinthians. 1 Cor 15:1 is their salvation and they received the "word/Gospel" that Paul taught. And He goes on to reiterate what his "word" was in 1 Cor 15:3-11.

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

"Unless you believed in vain" clues us in. Paul Knows that they received his word. Paul Knows that they believed. 1 Cor 15:11. So Paul knows that they are holding fast the "word/Gospel" which he preached......1 Cor 15:11 shows us this.

He KNOWS they didn't believe in vain....So he knows they hold fast his word. So the context tells us that it is a first class conditional clause.

Its a long study, but this explains it a lot better then I can!

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...greek/text/boyer-firstclassconditions-gtj.pdf

Great!! Thanks for the informative link.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just looking into it a bit deeper, one more thing that Paul states~~ 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

One more example of Paul KNOWING that "believing" is not in vain. And context wise, It is probably better proof for the 1st class conditional clause.

My take on 1 Cor 15:2 and "other wise you have believed in vain" is based on the Greek word for "in vain".

εἰκῆ eikē

1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort

I believe Paul was referring to what isn't saving faith. It is "believing in Jesus" for no particular purpose. Those who preach the nonsense "health and welfare" (prosperity) gospel generally suggest that we believe in Jesus for specific "things" in life.

The key is to believe in Jesus FOR eternal life. That is saving faith. Nothing else is. So to "believe in vain" indicates what the liberal religionists preach, or the prosperity gospel types preach. Neither emphasizes or even mentions eternal life as WHY we must believe in Jesus.

So, those who preach a false gospel are believing "without success" as 2a says.

 

[gr8grace3]

My take on 1 Cor 15:2 and "other wise you have believed in vain" is based on the Greek word for "in vain".

εἰκῆ eikē

1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort

I believe Paul was referring to what isn't saving faith. It is "believing in Jesus" for no particular purpose. Those who preach the nonsense "health and welfare" (prosperity) gospel generally suggest that we believe in Jesus for specific "things" in life.

The key is to believe in Jesus FOR eternal life. That is saving faith. Nothing else is. So to "believe in vain" indicates what the liberal religionists preach, or the prosperity gospel types preach. Neither emphasizes or even mentions eternal life as WHY we must believe in Jesus.

So, those who preach a false gospel are believing "without success" as 2a says.

I agree. And I think it was a statement that the Corinthians would of reflected on and thought," Not my belief, It most certainly had purpose and it was a success!" Which is basically what you are saying. We all need to check what we really believe in, what we are really relying on.

 

[Butch5]

Can you show me a verse that Specifically calls salvation a reward?

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

11 Indeed the LORD has proclaimed To the end of the world: "Say to the daughter of Zion,`Surely your salvation is coming; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.'" (Isa 62:11 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

It is a first class conditional clause.

1 Cor 15:2~~New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if(and You ARE) you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Is it not a first class conditional clause? http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm

What's you point? Yes, they are saved, the point is that it's conditional.

 

[Butch5]

So I will try again to get a corrected translation of John 10:28.

New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Should we translate this verse to the correct version of.....

and I might give eternal life to them, and they will never perish if they stay in Christ; and their unbelief will snatch them out of my hand, only the thief will not snatch them out of my hand.

The argument is fallacious. The context is a thief stealing someone from God's hand, it can't happen. The passage doesn't even address the issue of a believer turnin from the faith. It's not an issue of Scripture, it's an issue of reasoning.

It would be like me taking Paul's words in 1 Cor. 3 and saying all Christians are carnal.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
(1Co 3:1-3 NKJ)

This passage isn't talking about all Christians, likewise John 10 isn't speaking to the subject of one turning from the faith. To apply it to all Christians would be the fallacy of contextomy.

 

[Butch5]

The emphasis is on the continued results from the past action. A completed action. This is also in the intensive perfect tense.......

John 19:30~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!"(intensive perfect) And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

So, it is not permanently "finished?"

Just because something is finished it doesn't mean the results of that continue indefinitely. In Romans 8 Paul said,

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom 8:28 NKJ)

"Know" is in the perfect tense, literally, we have known. Do those Roman Christians still know that today? No, they're dead, the Scriptures say the dead know nothing. The result of their knowing ended when they died.

The perfect tense simply indicates that the results of that past action continue to the present time of the speaker or writer, it says nothing of the future

 

[FreeGrace]

What's you point? Yes, they are saved, the point is that it's conditional.

Salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ. At which point, the believer becomes a regenerated child of God, born again, given eternal life, which cannot die, nor exist in the second death. The believer is immediately sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, for the day of redemption.

Once saved, always saved.

Once a child of God, always a child of God.

Once given eternal life, always has eternal life.

So, what's your point?

 

[Butch5]

Salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ. At which point, the believer becomes a regenerated child of God, born again, given eternal life, which cannot die, nor exist in the second death. The believer is immediately sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, for the day of redemption.

Once saved, always saved.

Once a child of God, always a child of God.

Once given eternal life, always has eternal life.

So, what's your point?

I understand that's what you believe, however, I don't believe you can make that case from Scripture. The Scriptures don't speak of being regenerated upon belief, but rather upon water Baptism. Secondly, eternal life is promised to the believer, not given. If it was given to the believer when he believed, then he wouldn't die since eternal life means not dying. The believer is sealed that is true, however, as we've seen from the Scriptures and real life, a seal can be broken.