What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

[Butch5]

Well, you have no Scriptural support for your view. One is saved WHEN one believes, and "will not come into condemnation". With no conditions added.Jn 5:24.

I have plenty of Scriptural support, I’ve already given you the words of Jesus Himself. Part of the problem is the idea that salvation is a past completed action. The Scriptures show it is an ongoing process by using the term in all three tenses. An in John 5 Jesus is speaking of the who is believing, this passage doesn’t even address the issue a person who stops believing so it doesn’t prove the point you’re trying to make.


This comes down to the issue of reasoning. Too many do not reason properly which is one of the reasons for all of the back on forth with the Scriptures. If we want to see what the Scriptures as about an issue we need to look at that subject, not a different subject. As I’ve said quite a few time the OSAS argument is based on passages out of context. This quote of John 5:24 is another example of a passage out of context. In trying to prove OSAS you’ve taken a passage that is speaking of believers and applied it to anyone who has ever believed. Jesus didn’t say, anyone who has ever believed at some point, no matter what the status of that belief is now is passage from death to life, He said the one who “is believing.”


The passage doesn’t address those who used to believe but stopped, it doesn’t address the issue of whether a believer can stop believing, It doesn’t address any of this, it simply speaks of the position of the person who “is believing.” If we want to find out what happens to those who stop believing we need to look at passage that deal with that subject, not passages that deal with the believer. If one wants to learn about the American Civil War, they don’t buy a book on the French Revolution.

Paul disagrees with you.Gal 3:2,5
2:This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

5:He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

There it is; very plain. We received the Holy Spirit by FAITH. No mention of baptism.

I think you’re reading your theology into these passages. What is the hearing of faith? It’s the Gospel. What does the Gospel say? ‘Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I will make this perfectly clear. I'm not looking for any particular word, but for verses that unambiguously state that one can lose their salvation. I assume that you are clear about what "unambiguous" means. None of the warning passages mention salvation, so it is only assumed to mean that.

As well, none of them mention rewards or blessings either. But when the whole counsel of God is considered together, it is clear that the warning passages refer to loss of blessings/reward, not salvation.

You’ve already made it clear, however, just because you deny it doesn’t mean they don’t speak of salvation. Paul can’t get much more clear than, ‘you’re saved if you continue.’ The only implication is that if one doesn’t continue they’re not saved. There’s nothing there about rewards, he’s talking about being saved, nothing else. As I’ve pointed out the only reward that is mentioned is Salvation.

All irrelevant. We have Greek language scholars who are able to translate what was written and spoken so that we can understand it.

It’s not irrelevant at all, it’s most important. Firstly, translators have a bias, none of the translators comes to the Greek manuscripts without some theological point of view. Whatever their theological viewpoint is will affect their translation. For instance, the word “called” in Romans 8:28-30 also means invited, however, I seriously doubt that you will find any Calvinist anywhere that translates it invited. And this is with every translator no matter what his theological background. The reason is that in order to translate a text the translator has to know what the text says and he understands that text based on this theological viewpoint.


Another and maybe more important issue is a cultural one. If the translator doesn’t have a grasp of the cultural differences he may not have proper understanding of the passage. It’s not always a simple matter of a word for word translation, sometimes concepts need to be translated also and if the translator doesn’t understand or misses the concept his translation may be lacking. The Jewish way of thinking was very different from that of the Greeks and the west today, including America, thinks along the lines of the Greeks not the Jews. That is one of the reasons there are so many differences among Protestant denominations. Too many try to understand the Bible from a 21st century American mindset rather than from a 1st century Jewish mindset.

Sentence "structure" doesn't determine the meaning of words. Not now, not ever. The context determines how words are used and meant.

How about providing a clear example of one of your "if" passages that mean that we will lose salvation "IF" something happens? Could you do that?

The example gave is a perfect example. I’ll bet that if you wanted to keep that job you’d show up for work that day because you know what the “if” meant. If you didn’t show up you wouldn’t have that Job on Monday.


18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness1, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:18-24 NKJ)

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled

22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Col 1:19-23 NKJ)

Wow, really? Where did you read that???

YLT 1 Chronicles 10:13 And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, -- (1Ch 10:13 YLT)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The indicative mood proves it can't be reversed it is a statement of fact. It is a mood of certainty. And I showed my source. Why not show your simple Google search and put up some evidence?

perfect indicative active: s/he sang, has sung, did sing
(http://www.uvm.edu/~bsaylor/latin/cheatsheet.html )

It's easy to see that s/he did in fact sing. That is the statement of fact. What you are adding to the meaning of 'perfect indicative active' is that the singing will continue forever.

Let's apply that to believing: When a person believes, but then doesn't believe, the believing they did is indeed an irreversible historical fact. What you can not add to the verb tense is that it means the historically irreversible act of believing continues forever. The fact it happened is what can not be reversed, not the continuation of the believing itself. That ended when the singer...I mean the believer... stopped believing. But the historical fact that she sang remains.

"Okay, Mrs. Fairchild, you can stop singing now. Mrs. Fairchild......Mrs. Fairchild....".

 

[Butch5]

Actually it is not the same sentence structure. Your sentence is a "maybe you will, maybe you won't come to work." A third class? conditional clause. I would have to look it up to be sure.

1 Cor 15:2~~New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

This is a first class conditional clause. Paul is saying, "If, and you are, holding fast the word which I preached to you..." It is the simple condition of the Corinthians.

Context will always determine the meaning of certain passages or phrases or clauses in scripture.

1 Cor 15:1 sets up their position in Christ. 1 Cor 15:2 puts them on their path to Spiritual growth or experiential sanctification in this life. Which ultimately is blessings in this life and rewards in eternity. But their salvation and standing in Christ is set in stone in 1 Cor 15:1.

New American Standard Bible
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

It's interesting that you would bring up context and then insert an idea that is not in the context
Paul said nothing of blessing or rewards here or in eternity. You're saved if you continue,' there's nothing hard about that. You guys keep bringing up rewards about passages that say nothing of rewards. However, as I've already pointed twice, when Scripture speaks of reward from Christ it's singular not plural and the Scriptures say that reward is salvation. So, even though the passages don't speak of rewards, you're claiming they do still doesn't help you because the reward that is promised is salvation. So, if it's a loss of reward as you claim then salvation is lost, either way the outcome is the same.

 

[Butch5]

perfect indicative active: s/he sang, has sung, did sing
(http://www.uvm.edu/~bsaylor/latin/cheatsheet.html )

It's easy to see that s/he did in fact sing. That is the statement of fact. What you are adding to the meaning of 'perfect indicative active' is that the singing will continue forever.

Let's apply that to believing: When a person believes, but then doesn't believe, the believing they did is indeed an irreversible historical fact. What you can not add to the verb tense is that it means the historically irreversible act of believing continues forever. The fact it happened is what can not be reversed, not the continuation of the believing itself. That ended when the singer...I mean the believer... stopped believing. But the historical fact that she sang remains.

"Okay, Mrs. Fairchild, you can stop singing now. Mrs. Fairchild......Mrs. Fairchild....".

You're correct. The perfect tense says nothing about the future.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, because that's what the Scriptures teach. Read the last parable in Mathew 25

Yes. What is the context? The Tribulation. Not all of humanity throughout history. It applies to the Tribulation only. And it isn't speaking of getting into heaven.

I already did.[/QUOTE]
No, you didn't.

Faith if it has no works is dead. Dead faith cannot produce works.

Yes, this is your so-called "explanation", which explains nothing about salvation. How about addressing my explanation and refuting it. Simply repeating your view isn't a refutation. Show how my view cannot be right.

The key to James 2:14-16 is found in v.18. A believer who doesn't show works cannot demonstrate his faith. It is one's works that demonstrates one's faith.

And v.15-16 is about hypocrisy. A believer who does that is a hypocrite. Nothing about not being saved. James used "sozo" 5 times in his epistle, and NONE of them refer to getting saved.

The argument that faith produces works doesn't work.

Right. And that's not my argument.

A dead faith can't produce anything, in order for faith to be alive it must have works.

Correct. Which has nothing to do with being saved or not. Many believers don't produce works. That doesn't "unsave" them.

I think I've already pointed out that James said, 'I show my faith out of my works.' How can works be the products of faith if faith comes our of works? They can't be.

I think you've gotten a strange translation.

KJV: James 2:18 - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

NASB: But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

What translation says "my faith out of my works"?

Faith is not a product of works. If that were true, we need to cut Rom 4 and 10 out of our Bibles.

Furthermore, Paul very clearly said that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, NOT of works.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, because that's what the Scriptures teach. Read the last parable in Mathew 25

Yes. What is the context? The Tribulation. Not all of humanity throughout history. It applies to the Tribulation only. And it isn't speaking of getting into heaven.

I already did.[/QUOTE]
No, you didn't.

Faith if it has no works is dead. Dead faith cannot produce works.

Yes, this is your so-called "explanation", which explains nothing about salvation. How about addressing my explanation and refuting it. Simply repeating your view isn't a refutation. Show how my view cannot be right.

The key to James 2:14-16 is found in v.18. A believer who doesn't show works cannot demonstrate his faith. It is one's works that demonstrates one's faith.

And v.15-16 is about hypocrisy. A believer who does that is a hypocrite. Nothing about not being saved. James used "sozo" 5 times in his epistle, and NONE of them refer to getting saved.

The argument that faith produces works doesn't work.

Right. And that's not my argument.

A dead faith can't produce anything, in order for faith to be alive it must have works.

Correct. Which has nothing to do with being saved or not. Many believers don't produce works. That doesn't "unsave" them.

I think I've already pointed out that James said, 'I show my faith out of my works.' How can works be the products of faith if faith comes our of works? They can't be.

I think you've gotten a strange translation.

KJV: James 2:18 - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

NASB: But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

What translation says "my faith out of my works"?

Faith is not a product of works. If that were true, we need to cut Rom 4 and 10 out of our Bibles.

Furthermore, Paul very clearly said that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, NOT of works.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have plenty of Scriptural support, I’ve already given you the words of Jesus Himself. Part of the problem is the idea that salvation is a past completed action. The Scriptures show it is an ongoing process by using the term in all three tenses.

This is a misunderstanding. There are 3 WAYS we are "saved". In the past tense, we are saved from the penalty of sin. In the present tense, we are being saved from the power of sin (through spiritual growth), and in the future tense, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

However, salvation IS a completed FACT. Jesus said so. John 5:24.

This comes down to the issue of reasoning. Too many do not reason properly which is one of the reasons for all of the back on forth with the Scriptures. If we want to see what the Scriptures as about an issue we need to look at that subject, not a different subject. As I’ve said quite a few time the OSAS argument is based on passages out of context.

This is just your opinion. In fact, the anti-eternal security folk have talken passages way out of context.

This quote of John 5:24 is another example of a passage out of context. In trying to prove OSAS you’ve taken a passage that is speaking of believers and applied it to anyone who has ever believed.

You know why? Because at the moment of belief in Christ, all that He said is true. The one who believes, at that moment, WILL NOT come into condemnation. But it seems you reject that.

Jesus didn’t say, anyone who has ever believed at some point, no matter what the status of that belief is now is passage from death to life, He said the one who “is believing.”

You want to go with the aorist tense. Great!! That's the tense Paul used in his answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

So, show me from Acts 16:31 where Paul tells the jailer that he needs to keep believing in order to be saved.

Another and maybe more important issue is a cultural one. If the translator doesn’t have a grasp of the cultural differences he may not have proper understanding of the passage.

If this is a real issue, then NO ONE currently can understand a thing written 1,000s of years ago. This is silly. Of course Greek scholars understand the cultural issue. That's HOW they get a grasp of the language.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, because that's what the Scriptures teach. Read the last parable in Mathew 25

Yes. What is the context? The Tribulation. Not all of humanity throughout history. It applies to the Tribulation only. And it isn't speaking of getting into heaven.

This is interesting. When I say a passage doesn’t apply to some people usually go nuts on me. But, sorry this is after the Tribulation.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Mat 25:31-32 KJV)


However, even if it was the Tribulation is clearly shows that people are judged according to their deeds, and the judgment was eternal life or damnation. I think you’ll be hard pressed to show a different method of salvation for that group as opposed to the rest of mankind.

No, you didn't.

You may not agree, but that doesn’t mean I didin’t.

Yes, this is your so-called "explanation", which explains nothing about salvation. How about addressing my explanation and refuting it. Simply repeating your view isn't a refutation. Show how my view cannot be right.

How many times do you want me to do it? Your argument is that faith produces good works, that argument doesn’t fit with what James said.

The key to James 2:14-16 is found in v.18. A believer who doesn't show works cannot demonstrate his faith. It is one's works that demonstrates one's faith.

That may be so, however, the works are not the product of that faith, they are part of it. The faith doesn’t precede the works

And v.15-16 is about hypocrisy. A believer who does that is a hypocrite. Nothing about not being saved. James used "sozo" 5 times in his epistle, and NONE of them refer to getting saved.

Really? So then being justified has nothing to do with salvation?

Right. And that's not my argument.

If your argument is that works demonstrate faith then I don’t see how it’s relevant and have to wonder why you would bring it up.

A dead faith can't produce anything, in order for faith to be alive it must have works.

Correct. Which has nothing to do with being saved or not. Many believers don't produce works. That doesn't "unsave" them.

Interesting, Jesus said the branches that don’t produce fruit are cut off and collected to be burned. He also said that the servant who buried the talent and had no increase was also cast off in to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. James said that a man is justified by works. How is one saved, yet not justified?

I think you've gotten a strange translation.

KJV: James 2:18 - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

NASB: But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

It’s a literal translation from the Greek.


BGT James 2:18 Ἀλλ᾽ ἐρεῖ τις· σὺ πίστιν ἔχεις, κἀγὼ ἔργα ἔχω· δεῖξόν μοι τὴν πίστιν σου χωρὶς τῶν ἔργων, κἀγώ σοι δείξω ἐκ τῶν ἔργων μου τὴν πίστιν. (Jam 2:18 BGT)


YLT James 2:18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith:


The word “ek” means out of .

What translation says "my faith out of my works"?

Young’s Literal translation which is above

Faith is not a product of works. If that were true, we need to cut Rom 4 and 10 out of our Bibles.

Furthermore, Paul very clearly said that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, NOT of works.

I didn’t say faith was product of works, however, we would need to remove Romans 4 and 10 because they are speaking a different works than James is. James is speaking of good deeds such a feeding the poor and clothing the naked. Paul is addressing the issue of salvation by keeping the Mosaic Law, which was being propagated by some Jews. Two completely different subjects.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes. What is the context? The Tribulation. Not all of humanity throughout history. It applies to the Tribulation only. And it isn't speaking of getting into heaven.

I already did.

Yes, this is your so-called "explanation", which explains nothing about salvation. How about addressing my explanation and refuting it. Simply repeating your view isn't a refutation. Show how my view cannot be right.

The key to James 2:14-16 is found in v.18. A believer who doesn't show works cannot demonstrate his faith. It is one's works that demonstrates one's faith.

And v.15-16 is about hypocrisy. A believer who does that is a hypocrite. Nothing about not being saved. James used "sozo" 5 times in his epistle, and NONE of them refer to getting saved.


Right. And that's not my argument.


Correct. Which has nothing to do with being saved or not. Many believers don't produce works. That doesn't "unsave" them.


I think you've gotten a strange translation.

KJV: James 2:18 - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

NASB: But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

What translation says "my faith out of my works"?

Faith is not a product of works. If that were true, we need to cut Rom 4 and 10 out of our Bibles.

Furthermore, Paul very clearly said that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith, NOT of works.

And Young's does not mean that faith is the product of works.
The key word to me is "show".
One can show that they have a living faith by the good works they do. But good works do not prove that those works are actually done because their faith is in Christ.
One can have faith in Christ and we may never see that faith in their good works because their good works may be done in secret. :shock

 

[Butch5]

This is a misunderstanding. There are 3 WAYS we are "saved". In the past tense, we are saved from the penalty of sin. In the present tense, we are being saved from the power of sin (through spiritual growth), and in the future tense, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

These are Baptist talking points, I didn't take you for a Baptist. However, I disagree with the three p"s. There's one way to be saved, by grace through faith. That salvation is an ongoing relationship, it's a betrothal, an engagement. We've not seen the marriage supper yet.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2Co 11:2 NKJ)

Paul said he had betrothed them, that's an engagement, not a marriage. The marriage comes later. It's official at the marriage.

However, salvation IS a completed FACT. Jesus said so. John 5:24.

It's not completed or Christians would have their glorified bodies and they wouldn't die.

This is just your opinion. In fact, the anti-eternal security folk have talken passages way out of context.

It's not an opinion. You can present any passage of Scripture you like and I'll show that in context it's not talking about eterenal security

You know why? Because at the moment of belief in Christ, all that He said is true. The one who believes, at that moment, WILL NOT come into condemnation. But it seems you reject that.

Not at all. However, He didn't say that about the one who stops believing

You want to go with the aorist tense. Great!! That's the tense Paul used in his answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

So, show me from Acts 16:31 where Paul tells the jailer that he needs to keep believing in order to be saved.

We're going back to the argument from silence? This is why I brought up the issue of proper reasoning. Your argument might be sound if we knew for certain that these were the only words that Paul spoke to the jailer. However, we don't. It's highly doubtful based on the question that the only thing Paul said to the jailer was, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" and then left him. We only have what Luke chose to write. I have no doubt that Paul went on to preach Jesus to the jailer and his household. Your argument assumes that Paul said one sentence to the jailer and nothing else, which cannot be verified and thus is an argument from silence.

It also tries to define "believe on the Lord Jesus" and a simple belief alone. Since Paul said it we can look elsewhere to see what Paul meant by believe on the Lord Jesus.

If this is a real issue, then NO ONE currently can understand a thing written 1,000s of years ago. This is silly. Of course Greek scholars understand the cultural issue. That's HOW they get a grasp of the language.

Don't be so quick to dismiss this. If you do a study of the early church you'll see just how far off base modern Christianity is. There's so much error in modern Christianity it's not funny. Besides, Greek scholars have their biases too.

 

[Butch5]

And Young's does not mean that faith is the product of works.
The key word to me is "show".
One can show that they have a living faith by the good works they do. But good works do not prove that those works are actually done because their faith is in Christ.
One can have faith in Christ and we may never see that faith in their good works because their good works may be done in secret. :shock

Good post Deb.

 

[Butch5]

John 10:28~~New American Standard Bible
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

I am curious then. John 10:28 can legitimately be translated.......

and I might give eternal life to them,and as long as they stay in Christ they will never perish; and no one, but their own unbelief,will snatch them out of my hand.

By reading the whole bible, we can rightly change John 10:28 to this corrected translation?

But what's the context?

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: (Joh 10:1 KJV)

That's why Jesus says no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. The passage is talking about thieves. It's not addressing the issue of a person turning from the faith. This is why I keep going back the subject of proper reasoning. We can take all kinds of passages and pull them from their context and make them appear to say what we want them to say.

 

[Butch5]

This is what the bible says about being "In Christ."

Romans 8~~38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are a created thing.

Being in union with Christ, we share certain things with Him. One of them being eternal life, which is HIS life.

1 John 5:11 (ESV)
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

John 10:28 (KJV 1900)
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

What does the passage say? Does it say who can separate us from God or does it say who can separate us from the love of God? If my child rejects me it doesn't mean I'm going to stop loving them. I doubt that God would either, that doesn't mean one cannot turn away. We have examples of that very thing so if we claim it can't happen we contradict Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is interesting. When I say a passage doesn’t apply to some people usually go nuts on me. But, sorry this is after the Tribulation.

If you are referring to "he who endures to the end will be saved", then it IS in context of the Tribulation.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Mat 25:31-32 KJV)

However, even if it was the Tribulation is clearly shows that people are judged according to their deeds, and the judgment was eternal life or damnation. I think you’ll be hard pressed to show a different method of salvation for that group as opposed to the rest of mankind.

When all of Scripture is considered, and not just 1 separate passage, it is clear that those who are called "sheep" are believers, unlike the goats.

btw, yes, everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, will be judged according to their deeds. 2 Cor 5:10 indicates that believers will be judged on the basis of their works.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. NASB

This isn't a judgment regarding salvation. Why? Because we already know that those who believe ARE saved. This judgment is for reward or loss of reward (whether good or bad).

Unbelievers are also judged based on their deeds. But again, not for salvation or not, but regarding how "tolerable" it will be for them in the second death, or LoF. Rev 20:15-20 notes the Great White Throne judgment, which is based on the books of "deeds" or "works". These works determine how "tolerable" it will be for them. But the FACT of why they are cast into the LoF is because they do not possess eternal life. Which is obtained by faith in Christ.

Note what Jesus said in: Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24.

How many times do you want me to do it? Your argument is that faith produces good works, that argument doesn’t fit with what James said.

I've already stated that this isn't my argument at all. In fact, James was admonishing his audience to produce works in keeping with their faith. iow, those of faith SHOULD demonstrate their faith with works. It is impossible to demonstrate one's faith apart from works.

That may be so, however, the works are not the product of that faith, they are part of it. The faith doesn’t precede the works

Yes, works come after faith. Please provide evidence from Scripture for your view.

If your argument is that works demonstrate faith then I don’t see how it’s relevant and have to wonder why you would bring it up.

It isn't my argument. It is exactly what James was pointing out. Those who are believers NEED to demonstrate their faith by works.

A dead faith can't produce anything, in order for faith to be alive it must have works.

You have it totally backwards. Why do you think one needs works to make their faith alive? That makes zero sense.

In order to demonstrate one's faith as a Christian, that person needs to be "Christ-like", which is demonstrating our faith.

Interesting, Jesus said the branches that don’t produce fruit are cut off and collected to be burned.

Are you familiar with agricultural practices? Jesus said this in an agricultural setting. The burning of branches that are unproductive simply refers to those branches being of no use for the farmer. In the SAME sense, those believers who aren't producing are of no use for God's plan. That says nothing about loss of salvation here. It's talking about being useless FOR God. It has nothing to do with getting saved or staying saaved.

He also said that the servant who buried the talent and had no increase was also cast off in to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Why do you think the metaphor refers to hell?

James said that a man is justified by works. How is one saved, yet not justified?

How sad. Context is king. In James, the point was to demonstrate one's faith to others (2:15,16, 18). So when James wrote 2:24, he was referring to being justified in the eyes of others, NOT God. God doesn't need to see one's faith through works. But, man certainly does need to see one's works in order to "see" their faith.

Paul spoke of being justified by faith in God's eyes, not man's. James spoke of being justified by works in man's eyes, not God's.

 

[FreeGrace]

And Young's does not mean that faith is the product of works.

I agree. I don't know why Butch5 or you think I am arguing that faith is the product of works.

The key word to me is "show".
One can show that they have a living faith by the good works they do. But good works do not prove that those works are actually done because their faith is in Christ.

While true, James wanted his audience to demonstrate their faith by works so others would see their faith, unlike the bozo in 2:15,16 who was a hypocrite.

One can have faith in Christ and we may never see that faith in their good works because their good works may be done in secret. :shock

Absolutely!!

 

[FreeGrace]

These are Baptist talking points, I didn't take you for a Baptist. However, I disagree with the three p"s.

So? Whether you agree or not doesn't change the truth.

There's one way to be saved, by grace through faith. That salvation is an ongoing relationship, it's a betrothal, an engagement. We've not seen the marriage supper yet.

What is your point?

NKJ 2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2Co 11:2 NKJ)

Paul said he had betrothed them, that's an engagement, not a marriage. The marriage comes later. It's official at the marriage.

What is your point? That believers aren't saved until the "marriage"? Wowsers. The marriage supper of the Lamb is the celebration of ALL believers. Some think it occurs after a preTrib rapture, while others think it occurs when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation.

We're going back to the argument from silence? This is why I brought up the issue of proper reasoning. Your argument might be sound if we knew for certain that these were the only words that Paul spoke to the jailer.

Of course Paul said more words. I have read the entire context. But his answer to the jailer is EXACTLY what the jailer needed to know to be saved. The further words Paul spoke were obviously directed to his family who weren't around when Paul answered the jailer's question.

However, we don't. It's highly doubtful based on the question that the only thing Paul said to the jailer was, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" and then left him. We only have what Luke chose to write. I have no doubt that Paul went on to preach Jesus to the jailer and his household. Your argument assumes that Paul said one sentence to the jailer and nothing else, which cannot be verified and thus is an argument from silence.

I'm not arguing from silence. Your charge is puzzling. Paul directly answered the jailer's question of HOW to be saved. Are you claiming that Paul's answer isn't everything necessary to be saved.

IDon't be so quick to dismiss this. If you do a study of the early church you'll see just how far off base modern Christianity is. There's so much error in modern Christianity it's not funny. Besides, Greek scholars have their biases too.

In fact, everyone has bias. But when clear truth is presented and bias stays in the way of acceptance of that truth, that is the problem.

 

[Butch5]

If you are referring to "he who endures to the end will be saved", then it IS in context of the Tribulation.

I’m referring to Mat 25


31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before himshall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd dividethhissheep from the goats: (Mat 25:31-32 KJV)

However, even if it was the Tribulation is clearly shows that people are judged according to their deeds, and the judgment was eternal life or damnation. I think you’ll be hard pressed to show a different method of salvation for that group as opposed to the rest of mankind.

When all of Scripture is considered, and not just 1 separate passage, it is clear that those who are called "sheep" are believers, unlike the goats.

btw, yes, everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, will be judged according to their deeds.2 Cor 5:10indicates that believers will be judged on the basis of their works.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. NASB

This isn't a judgment regarding salvation. Why? Because we already know that those who believe ARE saved. This judgment is for reward or loss of reward (whether good or bad).

Where do you see anything about rewards? It seems to me that again you’re reading your theology into the passage. The passage says nothing about rewards. However, if we want to see the results of that judgment we can look at Paul’s other writings that tell us about those who don’t obey.

Unbelievers are also judged based on their deeds. But again, not for salvation or not, but regarding how "tolerable" it will be for them in the second death, or LoF.Rev 20:15-20notes the Great White Throne judgment, which is based on the books of "deeds" or "works". These works determine how "tolerable" it will be for them. But the FACT of why they are cast into the LoF is because they do not possess eternal life. Which is obtained by faith in Christ.

Note what Jesus said in:Matt 10:15,11:22,24. [/quote[


This argument presupposes dualism, which cannot be supported by the Scriptures.

I've already stated that this isn't my argument at all. In fact, James was admonishing his audience to produce works in keeping with their faith. iow, those of faith SHOULD demonstrate their faith with works. It is impossible to demonstrate one's faith apart from works.

We agree on something.

Yes, works come after faith. Please provide evidence from Scripture for your view.

I did. How can faith come out of works if works come after faith? They can’t.

[quoe]It isn't my argument. It is exactly what James was pointing out. Those who are believers NEED to demonstrate their faith by works.

You just said that it is your argument, that works demonstrate faith.

You have it totally backwards. Why do you think one needs works to make their faith alive? That makes zero sense.


In order to demonstrate one's faith as a Christian, that person needs to be "Christ-like", which is demonstrating our faith.

How do I have it backwards? Faith without works is dead. If it’s dead what makes it alive?

Are you familiar with agricultural practices? Jesus said this in an agricultural setting. The burning of branches that are unproductive simply refers to those branches being of no use for the farmer. In the SAME sense, those believers who aren't producing are of no use for God's plan. That says nothing about loss of salvation here. It's talking about being useless FOR God. It has nothing to do with getting saved or staying saaved.

Do you see what I’m getting at? You deny every passage. So a Christian who is useless to God is saved, yet Jesus said the useless branches were burned. If the useless believer is burned what does that mean?

Why do you think the metaphor refers to hell?

Well, I surely don’t see it as a metaphor for the kingdom of God.

How sad. Context is king. In James, the point was to demonstrate one's faith to others (2:15,16, 18). So when James wrote 2:24, he was referring to being justified in the eyes of others, NOT God. God doesn't need to see one's faith through works. But, man certainly does need to see one's works in order to "see" their faith.

Paul spoke of being justified by faith in God's eyes, not man's. James spoke of being justified by works in man's eyes, not God's.

If that was so, I would expect James to use an example of someone who was justified in man’s eyes. However, in the example James uses no one was there but Abraham, Isaac, and God. As a matter of fact Abraham told the others to stay back and wait for him to return. So how exactly is that being justified in man’s eyes. If you read the story it was because Abraham obeyed God that God swore the oath to Him. No, James’ isn’t talking about man’s eyes as there was no one there but the three.

 

[Butch5]

So? Whether you agree or not doesn't change the truth.

But it’s not.

What is your point?

My point is that there aren’t three was to be saved.

What is your point? That believers aren't saved until the "marriage"? Wowsers. The marriage supper of the Lamb is the celebration of ALL believers. Some think it occurs after a preTrib rapture, while others think it occurs when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation.

My point is that an engagement isn’t a marriage. An engagement can be broken off.

Of course Paul said more words. I have read the entire context. But his answer to the jailer is EXACTLY what the jailer needed to know to be saved. The further words Paul spoke were obviously directed to his family who weren't around when Paul answered the jailer's question.

Do you know what else Paul said to the Jailer? No, you don’t, so you don’t what Paul told the Jailer about how to be saved. That’s why I said to use that one verse as an end all of salvation is an argument from silence. I think it’s highly likely that Paul told the jailer what it meant to believe on Jesus. Part of the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be baptized.

I'm not arguing from silence. Your charge is puzzling. Paul directly answered the jailer's question of HOW to be saved. Are you claiming that Paul's answer isn't everything necessary to be saved.

What I’m saying is that we only have one sentence from Luke about what Paul said, Paul could have spent hours telling the jailer what it means to believe on the Lord Jesus. We have one summary statement by Luke. To take a single passage and claim this is the end all on the issue is illogical, especially when we have other writings from Paul that go into more detail about what it means to believe on the Lord Jesus

In fact, everyone has bias. But when clear truth is presented and bias stays in the way of acceptance of that truth, that is the problem.

I agree that everyone has some bias, that’s why it’s important to realize it and try to set it aside as we approach the Scriptures.

 

[gr8grace3]

perfect indicative active: s/he sang, has sung, did sing
(http://www.uvm.edu/~bsaylor/latin/cheatsheet.html )

It's easy to see that s/he did in fact sing. That is the statement of fact. What you are adding to the meaning of 'perfect indicative active' is that the singing will continue forever.

Let's apply that to believing: When a person believes, but then doesn't believe, the believing they did is indeed an irreversible historical fact. What you can not add to the verb tense is that it means the historically irreversible act of believing continues forever. The fact it happened is what can not be reversed, not the continuation of the believing itself. That ended when the singer...I mean the believer... stopped believing. But the historical fact that she sang remains.

"Okay, Mrs. Fairchild, you can stop singing now. Mrs. Fairchild......Mrs. Fairchild....".

Original language. Koine Greek. Not Latin

And we are not talking about their singing or believing. We are talking about their STANDING.

1 Cor 15:1~~New American Standard Bible
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

"The Greek perfect differs from the Greek aorist in that it emphasizes the continuing result of the action which was completed in past time...http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/new_testament_greek.htm

But following your train of thought of believing and the KOINE GREEK use of the intensive perfect.

Acts 16:31~~New American Standard Bible
They said, "Believe(aorist tense) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Aorist tense~~they believed at a point in time.

1 Cor 15:1~~New American Standard Bible
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received(acts 16:31), in which also you stand,......the continuing result from their past point of believing.

But for more proof of the intensive perfect being a continuing result, lets look at scripture.

1 Cor 15:12~~New American Standard Bible
Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised ("egegertai", perfect, passive, lit., ) from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

completed in past time with continuing results.

1 Cor 9:1~~New American Standard Bible
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen("eoraka" is perfect active) Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved(perfect,passive) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Jesus~~Raised in the past with continuing results. 1 Cor 15:2

Paul~~Seen in the past with continuing results(A apostle had to see Jesus) 1 Cor 9:1

You~~saved in the past with continuing results. Eph 2:8

Are you prepared to say that Jesus was not permanently raised and Paul was not permanently an Apostle?

 

[gr8grace3]

It's interesting that you would bring up context and then insert an idea that is not in the context
Paul said nothing of blessing or rewards here or in eternity. You're saved if you continue,' there's nothing hard about that. You guys keep bringing up rewards about passages that say nothing of rewards. However, as I've already pointed twice, when Scripture speaks of reward from Christ it's singular not plural and the Scriptures say that reward is salvation. So, even though the passages don't speak of rewards, you're claiming they do still doesn't help you because the reward that is promised is salvation. So, if it's a loss of reward as you claim then salvation is lost, either way the outcome is the same.

Can you show me a verse that Specifically calls salvation a reward?

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;