What does abiding in Christ refer to?

[FreeGrace]

John 15:1-8
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

There is a view among some Christians that this passage is a "proof text" about the possibility of losing salvation. They take the phrases "cuts off" (v.2), "prunes" (v.2), "thrown away & withers" (v.6) and "thrown into the fire and burned" (v.6) as references to being separated from Christ and cast into hell.

They also take the phrase "if you remain in Me" in v.7 as an admonition for how to remain saved.

However, we find references about "bearing fruit" (v.2), "even more fruitful" (v.2) and "bear much fruit" (v.5) through the passage. This shows the point here is about fruit production, not salvation.

iow, in order to bear fruit, one MUST "remain in Him" (v.5). This is again not about salvation, but about fellowship. Unless the believer is in fellowship with Christ, he CANNOT bear fruit.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost seem quite resistant towards the idea of fellowship. In spite of numerous verses that emphasis fellowship with God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Cor 1:9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
Phil 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,
1 John 1:3-7
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

It should be obvious that fellowship is a very important concept regarding the Christian life.

Paul gave us two negative commands regarding the Holy Spirit:
Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit

In the Greek, these negative commands actually mean: "stop doing it". Which indicates believers have been doing these things: grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit.

It is reasonable to understand "grieving" as accepting false doctrine, and "quenching" as sin. Some may see "grieving" as unintentional sin and "quenching" as intentional sin. Which also makes sense.

But either way, the Holy Spirit can be grieved and quenched. When this occurs, the believer is not abiding in Christ, and therefore, cannot bear fruit.

However, there is another verse that speaks to the concept of fellowship with Christ:
2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

iow, the believer abides in Christ ONLY WHEN the believer "participates in the divine nature".

And the result of participating in the divine nature is escaping the corruption in the world.

It should be clear that the believer who grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit is NOT participating in the divine nature.

Those who "abide in Him" are "walking by means of the Holy Spirit" (Gal 5:16) will produce the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23), which is participating in the divine nature, will have this result:
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, the command to "remain in Him" or "abide in Him" cannot refer to how to maintain one's salvation, but rather, how to bear much fruit. Or "participating in the divine nature".

 

[th1b.taylor]

Abide in Christ means that we are to live every minute of of every day, 24/7, seeking what God will have us to do. Now, that silly argument I will, most often ignore because it is not a salvic issue. Folks have taken the view that the Truth can be found in the Bible, as opposed to the Bible is the Word of God. I know this because they have dumped all of the scriptures that mitigate that position such as John 6:39. And except the scriptures they prefere be recconciled with the rest of scripture they cannot understand.

The first rule of Hermeneutics is, "No Scripture, passage of Scripture, nor any collection of Scriptures can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning down upon it."

Logic also agrees with this. The entire Bible is inspired by God, making God the real author of all the books in the Bible. Now, even those that disagree that God agree that when God said He never changes and in Duet 4:2 and at the end of Rev. 22 God assures us none shall add nor subtract of His Word because he is keeping it true.

 

[Jim Parker]

So, the command to "remain in Him" or "abide in Him" cannot refer to how to maintain one's salvation, but rather, how to bear much fruit. Or "participating in the divine nature".

(1) Salvation is having eternal life.
Salvation, having eternal life, is inseparable from the concept of being "in Christ."
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.
(2) Being "in Christ" encompasses several things.
A. It includes believing that Jesus is the Son of God who was crucified for our sins and raised from the dead.
Rom 4:25 (Jesus Christ) was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
1Co 15:3-4 ... Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
2Co 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
(3) God alone has eternal life by nature. (It is par of what He is.)
Jhn 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
We have eternal life by having faith in Christ.
We remain "in Christ" by being faithful to Christ
We are faithful to Christ by keeping His commands.
Jhn 15:17 This I command you, to love one another.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
Jhn 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:23 If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

OOPS!!! I hit the wrong button and posted before I was finished!
Continued below...

 

[Jim Parker]

AT John 15, Jesus used the metaphor of a grape vine.
Jesus is the vine.
The disciples are the branches.
Life (eternal life) is in Jesus, the vine.
The disciples, the branches, receive their life (eternal life) by being attached to ("in") the vine.
If anyone (any branch) does not remain attached to ("in") Christ (the vine) then that [person is separated from the only source of eternal life.
As a branch that is no longer attached to a vine withers and dies, so does the disciple who does not remain in Jesus die, in this case, eternally. Since it is by being "in" Christ that one has eternal life, so it is that one who is cut of from or detached from Christ no longer has eternal life.
Jhn 15:6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

As for bearing fruit;
Jhn 15:2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
"Takes away" refers to being snipped off.
"Pruned" refers to the chastening of the Lord which leads to greater reflection of God's glory.
"Fruit" refers to the fruit of the Spirit which will increase in the believer as the believer matures to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13)
Believers are supposed to bear fruit.
Jhn 15:8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
Branches that do not bear fruit do not glorify the Father. They end up n the fire which is a metaphor for hell.

and there you have it.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[FreeGrace]

and there you have it.

Yep. Missed the entire point of the OP. Entirely.

So I'll put it another way. The command by Jesus to "abide in Me" cannot be about one's own efforts to "stay saved", or however one wants to put it.

We know this from what Jesus said:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Please note the result of what Jesus does: they shall NEVER perish.

And please note WHY none for whom He has given eternal life will never perish. They are in HIS hand. He is in control, not them.

To claim that abiding in Him refers to being or staying saved is tantamount to saying that the believer is in charge of his own salvation.

But we know that can't be true because of what Scripture says:
Heb 12:2 - looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Also, to claim that one can lose salvation is tantamount to claiming that they are greater than God. John 10:29 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

What is clear is that "no one" means "no person". And believers are persons. So even the believer himself CANNOT SNATCH themselves out of the either Jesus' or the Father's hand.

No one is greater than God. So no one can remove themselves from God's hand.

And there was nothing in the 2 posts addressing the fact that John 15 is about bearing fruit, not how to stay saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They also take the phrase "if you remain in Me" in v.7 as an admonition for how to remain saved.

Branches not remaining in the vine are broken off for reason of unbelief:
"“Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief" (Romans 11:19-20 NASB)

By the same token, the branch will remain in the vine if it keeps believing:
"but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." (Romans 11:20-21 NASB)

So we know the deciding factor of whether or not a branch gets cut out of the vine is if it believes or not. It's plain to see from Paul's illustration of the vine that being cutoff from the vine does in fact mean being unsaved. How do we know? From the simple fact that the Jews were cutoff because of their unbelief, and no one can argue they are somehow saved despite their unbelief.

The gentiles, on the other hand, remain in the vine because of their belief and are saved. Paul very plainly warns that the condition for remaining in the vine is continued belief, or else the believing branch will also be cutoff and lost as the unsaved Jews who are cut out of the vine are lost. It's a very plain teaching in very plain language right under our noses in our Bibles. It has to be twisted away from it's plain words for it to mean something else. Hold on folks.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:17-25 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, we find references about "bearing fruit" (v.2), "even more fruitful" (v.2) and "bear much fruit" (v.5) through the passage. This shows the point here is about fruit production, not salvation.

As Paul explains in his illustration, the branches that are cutoff are unbelieving branches. And the sign of unbelief is unfruitfulness:

"7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

(1 John 3:7-10,14-15 NASB bold and underline mine)

Fruit is the measure of faith. That's why dead, fruitless branches are removed from the vine and lost. The lack of fruit on them reveals them to be unbelieving, unsaved branches with no eternal life in them, as John explains above. That's why they get cut out of the vine and set aside for destruction. If they had eternal life in them they would not be cut off but rather retained and nurtured in order to bring forth more and more fruit. Anybody who's ever worked in an orchard knows this. Dead branches are dead.

 

[Jim Parker]

The command by Jesus to "abide in Me" cannot be about one's own efforts to "stay saved", or however one wants to put it.

So, when Jesus tells us to do something, he's reeeealy not telling us to do something.
He's just kidding.
He's going to d it all and we can just sit back and relax and be blessed and make sure you don't try to do anything that might look like you were trying to be obedient.

Yeah, sure. That's just what He meant.

 

[smaller]

So, when Jesus tells us to do something, he's reeeealy not telling us to do something.
He's just kidding.
He's going to d it all and we can just sit back and relax and be blessed and make sure you don't try to do anything that might look like you were trying to be obedient.

Yeah, sure. That's just what He meant.

And some wouldn't or couldn't have faith in Christ unless they saw an "OR ELSE" attached. Wouldn't necessarily say such are "in faith" as much as self imposed fear for their own hides.

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Anyone who claims to love another, in this case, love/obey God, and simultaneously thinks that same God will burn them alive forever if they don't (don't X) is only pulling their own leg about loving God, since such positions obviously think God "might not" even come close to loving them enough to save them. They are only sucking up to a more powerful being in order to not be destroyed. Has nothing to do with love.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"They also take the phrase "if you remain in Me" in v.7 as an admonition for how to remain saved."

Branches not remaining in the vine are broken off for reason of unbelief:
"“Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief" (Romans 11:19-20 NASB)

By the same token, the branch will remain in the vine if it keeps believing:
"but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." (Romans 11:20-21 NASB)

So we know the deciding factor of whether or not a branch gets cut out of the vine is if it believes or not. It's plain to see from Paul's illustration of the vine that being cutoff from the vine does in fact mean being unsaved. How do we know? From the simple fact that the Jews were cutoff because of their unbelief, and no one can argue they are somehow saved despite their unbelief.

How is any of this relevant to John 15:1-6?? There is NO MENTION of believing in John 15. The only issue is about bearing fruit.

The gentiles, on the other hand, remain in the vine because of their belief and are saved.

Jesus already assured His 11 disciples that they were saved (already clean) per John 15 -
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Please notice that after assuring them (the 11) that they ARE already clean in v.3, He then speaks of bearing fruit IF they "remain" in Him.

Then in v4 he says that "no branch can bear fruit by itself" because "it must remain in the vine". Then he clarifies by saying "neither can you bear gruity unless you remain in Me".

This is crystal clear. To "remain" or "abide" in Him is NECESSARY for bearing fruit, NOT for staying saved, or getting saved.

To see any issues of salvation in John 15 is to completely fail to understand what Jesus said.

Paul very plainly warns that the condition for remaining in the vine is continued belief, or else the believing branch will also be cutoff and lost as the unsaved Jews who are cut out of the vine are lost. It's a very plain teaching in very plain language right under our noses in our Bibles. It has to be twisted away from it's plain words for it to mean something else. Hold on folks.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:17-25 NASB)

All this has been thoroughly explained in other threads of which you've participated in.

The passage is a farming METAPHOR, not about the threat of hell, as is claimed, but FOR service to God. The Jews were quite proud of their being a "chosen race" for God. It went to their heads. So Paul saying that Jews would be cut off for unbelief would have been a great shock to them.

In fact, there is NO MENTION of hell or even fire here. So clearly not about loss of salvation. It's about service, just as John15 is about service, or BEARING FRUIT for God.

 

[FreeGrace]

As Paul explains in his illustration, the branches that are cutoff are unbelieving branches. And the sign of unbelief is unfruitfulness:

"7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

(1 John 3:7-10,14-15 NASB bold and underline mine)

There is NO question that those in unbelief CANNOT bear fruit. But that was Paul's clear point in John 15 and Rom 11.

Fruit is the measure of faith. That's why dead, fruitless branches are removed from the vine and lost.

Again, there is NO MENTION of being "lost" in either passage (John 15 or Rom11).

The lack of fruit on them reveals them to be unbelieving, unsaved branches with no eternal life in them, as John explains above.

You've had to go completely OUT of the context of John 15 in order to try to justify your views.

Since you've not understood either John 15 or Rom 11, why should anyone think you've understood 1 John 3?

That's why they get cut out of the vine and set aside for destruction. If they had eternal life in them they would not be cut off but rather retained and nurtured in order to bring forth more and more fruit. Anybody who's ever worked in an orchard knows this. Dead branches are dead.

Such an assumption is refuted by the FACT that eternal life, being a gift of God, per Rom 6:23, is also irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The command by Jesus to "abide in Me" cannot be about one's own efforts to "stay saved", or however one wants to put it."

So, when Jesus tells us to do something, he's reeeealy not telling us to do something.
He's just kidding.

Maybe you're kidding.

Of course he means what He says about doing something. But please show me anywhere in Scripture where He very clearly tells anyone to keep their salvation.

He's going to d it all and we can just sit back and relax and be blessed and make sure you don't try to do anything that might look like you were trying to be obedient.

Up to the the word "blessed", GRACE was the focus. Then the rest of the sentence was just nonsense.

For salvation, there is NOTHING that one can do to contribute towards it. Nothing meritorious, like works, deeds, whatever you'd like to call it.

We know this because of what Scripture says and says very clearly in Eph 2 -
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How is any of this relevant to John 15:1-6?? There is NO MENTION of believing in John 15. The only issue is about bearing fruit.

Go back and read my posts. The fruitless branch is the faithless branch.
Branches are cut out of the vine and destroyed in the fire because of unbelief. Christ uses one's works to measure and judge one's faith. This truth is evident all through John's minor letter. For example: "10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

To see any issues of salvation in John 15 is to completely fail to understand what Jesus said.

To not see any issues of salvation in John 15 is to ignore what Paul says about branches that are cut out of the vine.
He says they are cut out because of unbelief. Unfruitfulness is how you know which 'branches' believe, and which one's do not.

The author of Hebrews also talks about how fruitfulness is the evidence of salvation, while being barren is the evidence of not being saved:

"7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation" (Hebrews 6:7-9 NASB)

The link between fruitfulness and salvation is unmistakable. Fruitfulness indicates salvation, while unfruitfulness indicates the absence of salvation. John made this abundantly clear in 1 John 3:10 NASB that I posted above.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In fact, there is NO MENTION of hell or even fire here. So clearly not about loss of salvation.

Actually, Romans 11 comes right out and says it's about salvation:

"I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them." (Romans 11:13-14 NASB)
"a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;26and so all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26 NASB)
"28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies" (Romans 11:28 NASB)

The Israelites are the enemies of the gospel. The cutting off of the unbelieving branches is indeed about them being not saved. It's not a passage about service.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since you've not understood either John 15 or Rom 11, why should anyone think you've understood 1 John 3?

What is it about the plain words of 1 John 3:10 NASB that you do not understand?

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB bold and underline)

Read it. Fruitless people do not belong to God. How can you contradict what John says above and insist that fruitless people DO belong to God and are simply out of fellowship? You can't, of course.

 

[Jim Parker]

But please show me anywhere in Scripture where He very clearly tells anyone to keep their salvation.

To what do you think "remain in me" is referring.
If you are "in Christ" then you are saved.
If you are not "in Christ" then you are not saved.
It is that simple.
Jesus said: Jhn 15:4 “Abide in Me,..."
The word "abide" is μείνατε (meinate) in Greek. It is an instruction, or a command. "You remain in me."
It is the same word uses at Mat 26:38 "Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain (μείνατε) here, and watch with me."
So when Jesus said: “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off ;and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit." (Jhn 15:1-2 RSV)
And
“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:4-6 RSV)
He was saying:
(1) The Father cuts off from Christ all believers who do not bear fruit. (And eternal life because only in Christ is there eternal life or "salvation.")
(2) Jesus instructed them to remain in Him. If it were impossible NOT to remain in Jesus then He would not have had any need to instruct them to remain.
(3) Jesus instructed them to remain in Him so that they would bear much fruit.
(4) Those who do not remain in him wither and dry up (that is:die) and are thrown into the fire. (that is: hell.)

This is literature.
Jesus utilized metaphor to illustrate his teaching that (a) they (the disciples and, by extension, all believers) are to produce fruit; that (b) they must remain in Him to do so; (c) that it is possible to not remain in Christ; and (d) if one does not remain in Christ, he will produce no fruit, he will whither and die, and be thrown into hell.

It is a simple enough passage for any average reader to understand unless the reader had chosen to blind himself to anything that did not dove-tail perfectly with his preconceived, erroneous notions.

In such an intentionally blind reader "...is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:  ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.' " Mat 13:14 (NKJV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus IS eternal life:
"...Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)

You can not be cut away from Jesus/ eternal life and still have Jesus/ eternal life at the same time. If you do not have Jesus you simply do not have eternal life.
"12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12 NASB)

That's why we are exhorted to hang on to what we first heard and received:
"let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

We need to do that so we will continue to have Jesus/ eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Go back and read my posts. The fruitless branch is the faithless branch.

That's what I said as well. One cannot be fruitFUL if one is faithless. And believers can be faithless. Just study the Exodus generation.

Branches are cut out of the vine and destroyed in the fire because of unbelief.

To follow the farming METAPHOR, they are removed from service for lack of fruitfulness. "Discarded" is the correct word, not "destroyed" in Rom 11. It helps to review the passage before misstating facts. "22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

There is NO MENTION of anything being destroyed. Just "cut off". It takes a wild imagination to equate being cut off with going to hell.

Christ uses one's works to measure and judge one's faith. This truth is evident all through John's minor letter.

Rather, Scripture teaches just the opposite.
1 Sam 16:7 - But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

For example: "10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

The previous verse explains the meaning of v.10.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

This verse teaches that it is impossible for any believer to sin from his new nature. That's what "God's seed" refers to; the regenerated nature. One can only sin from his sin nature, or human nature.

So v.10 expands on that. When a believer sins, he sins from the human (sinful) nature, which was corrupted by Adam's rebellion, all of which began with the devil tempting the woman. So "children of the devil" refers to the human nature, where sin originates from.

To not see any issues of salvation in John 15 is to ignore what Paul says about branches that are cut out of the vine.

This unfortunately conflates 2 different passages. And Paul never said anything about loss of salvation.

Just the opposite, in fact. He described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. Then he said that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. One HAS TO close their eyes to the obvious to either ignore or reject the truth that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

He says they are cut out because of unbelief.

No, cut OFF, not cut OUT. Please quote the verse correctly.

Unfruitfulness is how you know what branches believe, and which one's do not.

Believers can be unfaithful. Or this verse is meaningless:
Mark 9:24 - And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears,Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

He believed for salvation, but had doubts about what all the Lord could do. No different than the exodus generation, per 1 Cor 10.

The author of Hebrews also talks about how fruitfulness is the evidence of salvation, while being barren is the evidence of not being saved:

"7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation" (Hebrews 6:7-9 NASB)

The link between fruitfulness and salvation is unmistakable.

Once again the mistake is equating the word "burned" with hell.

Fruitfulness indicates salvation, while unfruitfulness indicates the absence of salvation. John made this abundantly clear in 1 John 3:10 NASB that I posted above.

Another mistake. Fruitfulness is COMMANDED of believers. It indicates faithfulness, not the state of being saved, as erroneously claimed.

I correctly explained 1 John 3:10 by explaining v.9, which preceded v.10.

Just pulling single verses out of context and using them for proof texts doesn't work. Context always rules. And v.9 sets the stage and explains v.10.

If there is disagreement, then please take my points one by one and explain clearly how and why my points are incorrect.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"In fact, there is NO MENTION of hell or even fire here. So clearly not about loss of salvation."

Actually, Romans 11 comes right out and says it's about salvation:

"I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them." (Romans 11:13-14 NASB)
"a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;26and so all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26 NASB)
"28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies" (Romans 11:28 NASB)

My statement was about Rom 11:17-24. v.13-14 is in another paragraph, as is v.26.

The Israelites are the enemies of the gospel. The cutting off of the unbelieving branches is indeed about them being not saved. It's not a passage about service.

Then prove that the orthodox Jews (Pharisee types) didn't see their being chosen by God as not being about service to Him.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Since you've not understood either John 15 or Rom 11, why should anyone think you've understood 1 John 3?"

What is it about the plain words of 1 John 3:10 NASB that you do not understand?

Well, what part of my explanation of v.9 do you not understand? One cannot ignore immediately preceding verses when trying to proof text a single verse.

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB bold and underline)

Read it. Fruitless people do not belong to God.

I would suggest that you read it. It does not say "belong" in the verse. The point is that sin is "not of God". Pretty obvious, I would think.

Even when you personally sin, that act or acts are NOT OF GOD. Or do you disagree and would argue that because you are a believer, your sins are OF GOD??? I'd love to see an explanation for that!!

How can you contradict what John says above and insist that fruitless people DO belong to God and are simply out of fellowship? You can't, of course.

I never tried to contradict John. I explained him. Which anyone is free to accept or reject. But for those who would reject, they need to explain WHY they do. With proper exegesis.