What does abiding in Christ refer to?

[JLB]

Flawed question since you've not shown from Scripture that anyone who has been sealed "in Him" has been unsealed from Him.

Once that can be shown from Scripture, we'll continue the discussion.


This metaphor does not prove your opinion. Jesus used a metaphor. Please show me any Scripture without metaphors to prove that one sealed "in Him" can be or has been unsealed.

How does a person who is removed from being "in Him", still posses eternal life, which is only found "in Him"?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Flawed question since you've not shown from Scripture that anyone who has been sealed "in Him" has been unsealed from Him.

Once that can be shown from Scripture, we'll continue the discussion.

What scripture are you referring to?


Please post a scripture, that pertains to your question.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


The branches that are "in Him", that don't produce fruit are removed from being "in Him".


How does a person who is removed from being "in Him", still posses eternal life, which is only found "in Him"?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Since I thoroughly disagree with what appears to be your understanding of John 15, there is no reason to answer your question.

There is nothing in John 15 that says anything about losing salvation or eternal life.

Because the Bible teaches the exact opposite:
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

I believe God's Word.

There is no rational way to claim that eternal life is revocable or can be lost.

No scriptures here?

Let's refer to the bible and see:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Freegrace said - Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23

What you posted is not scripture, but your opinion, with a scripture "reference" tagged to your opinion.


again

Freegrace said - God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

Once again, this is not scripture but, your opinion, with a scripture "reference" tagged to your opinion.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

It's the gifts and calling together, that are irrevocable, which the context reveals.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

The context concerns unsaved Jews, who are enemies of the Gospel.

Please explain how unsaved Jews who are enemies of the Gospel have eternal life?


This revealing truth is obscured, when the scripture is not quoted with it's context.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Umm, so the fruit bearing branches that are pruned are no longer saved on your view?

The branches that are "in Him" that do indeed produce fruit, are not removed from Him, but pruned.

The fruitless branches that are "in Him" are removed from "Him".

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Please explain how a person that is removed from "Him", has eternal life, which is only found "in Him".




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
How does a person who is removed from being "in Him", still posses eternal life, which is only found "in Him"?

Not fair!!!
You're being logical and reasoned!

It would only be logical and reasonable if there were any verses that specifically addressed the guaranteed sealing with the Holy Spirit being broken for any reason. But since there aren't any, it is neither logical nor reasonable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course THOSE WHO BELIEVE have eternal life and will never perish! Who here says otherwise?

That isn't the issue, as you well know. No one has yet provided any verses that teach that one can lose eternal life. And the Bible is very clear that eternal life is a gift of God (Ro 6:23), and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

If eternal life was an exception to the teaching of Rom 11:29, then Paul would have made that crystal clear, and not by some farming metaphor.

The condition for having eternal life and never perishing is BELIEVING.

No, the condition for NEVER PERISHING is to be given eternal life. Which is exactly what Jesus said in John 10:28.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Please notice that the "them" who are given eternal life are those who have believed in Christ. It's a FACT that those given eternal life who WILL NEVER PERISH. If the man made doctrine of loss of salvation were true, then Jesus would have included some kind of caveat or additional conditions to the promise of NEVER PERISHING. But He never did that.

John 10;28 is totally clear. Those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. That is in total harmony with Rom 11:29 which says that God's gifts, which include eternal life from Rom 6:23, are irrevocable.

iow, once one receives God's gift of eternal life, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH. Period.

No one is arguing against that. Stop believing and the promise is not for you anymore.

This assumption has not been shown from Scripture.

Protestants can only hear that as a works gospel.

Because it is exactly that.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
''And when a believer sins, have they lost their eternal life? Please answer."

Only if the sinning is the result of a conscious decision to abandon faith in Christ, and God has turned them over to that decision.

So, why hasn't there been provided ANY verses from Scripture that say so? Every provided verse is anything but clear about loss of salvation. It takes a whole lot of assumption to reach that conclusion.

Your faith in Christ is what keeps His ministry active on your behalf in heaven (It is required that it always be active for a person: Hebrews 7:25 NASB).

This reveals the false idea that one must maintain their own salvation by keep on believing. The Bible uses the aorist tense as much as the present tense for believing for salvation. Which refutes the view that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

The person who stops believing and goes back to their old life loses Christ's ministry in heaven and has no sacrifice any where in all the universe to cover their sin now (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).

This cited verse says NOTHING about losing "Christ's ministry in heaven", whatever that means. And the 2 verses (v.18,26) that speak of "no sacrifice" in Heb 10 is specifically because Christ is the PERFECT SACRIFICE. His "once for all" sacrifice REMOVES the need for any more sacrifices (9:12, 26, 28, 10:2, 10, 12).

And consider Heb 10:14
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

This seems to have been missed or even rejected by the view of loss of salvation. The verse is clear: by 1 sacrifice, Jesus "has made perfect FOREVER" those who "are being made holy".

The Greek word for "perfect forever" is a perfect tense, active voice. It is God who does the perfecting, and the perfect tense is explained thusly:
"The perfect tense has to do with the completed progress of an action and its corresponding finished results. That is, it shows a present state of affairs (from the writer’s perspective), based upon an action in past time (when using the indicative mood). There is no tense in English that has this same meaning. Oftentimes the student of English will fail to realize the importance of the perfect tense and will tend to blend it with the aorist in translation. This is mainly due to English idiom and the customary practice of translating the Greek perfect as the English perfect. This can be a big mistake and can blur the point or emphasis of a New Testament passage. Since the perfect tense is used less frequently than other tenses, it is exegetically more significant. When it does occur, there is usually a definite and deliberate reason it was chosen by the writer. The emphasis may be on the culmination of the action's progress or on the resulting state of affairs brought about by the action." From: http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

They can not have the continuing effect of a ministry that they no longer possess by faith.

Heb 10:14 refutes your claim.

There is nothing left for them except the wrath of God (Hebrews 10:27 NASB).

Which is divine discipline, not loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

How does a person who is removed from being "in Him", still posses eternal life, which is only found "in Him"?
JLB

You've failed to prove that any believer has EVER been removed from being "in Him". All you've shown is a farming metaphor which teaches something other than your views.

In fact, the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is the means by which EVERY believer is placed "in Him", is a guarantee FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Slam.dunk.

Here's what these verses teach very clearly:
1. Those who "have believed", are "marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit". This mark or seal "guarantees our inheritance".
2. Note that what "guarantees our inheritance" isn't anything else we do after "having believed", but what God Himself PROMISES.
3. And the seal is "for the day of redemption".

And no one has YET provided any exegesis for these 3 verses to show that they teach anything thing else.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Flawed question since you've not shown from Scripture that anyone who has been sealed "in Him" has been unsealed from Him.

Once that can be shown from Scripture, we'll continue the discussion."

What scripture are you referring to?

In fact, I was requesting ANY verse from your side to prove that any believer can be, or ever has been removed from the status of being "in Him". I just proved from Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 that the seal is a guarantee of our inheritance, and is for the day of redemption.

Which proves that your claim that any believer can be removed from the status of being "in Him" is false.

Please post a scripture, that pertains to your question.

I did, as everyone else who reads these posts already knows.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Simply quoting a verse or two doesn't advance your view of the verses.

The branches that are "in Him", that don't produce fruit are removed from being "in Him".


How does a person who is removed from being "in Him", still posses eternal life, which is only found "in Him"?

Once someone actually proves that this passage is about eternal life, I'll answer the question.

As it is, since no one has yet done that, the question is bogus.

There are no answers to bogus questions.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I posted:
"Since I thoroughly disagree with what appears to be your understanding of John 15, there is no reason to answer your question.

There is nothing in John 15 that says anything about losing salvation or eternal life.

Because the Bible teaches the exact opposite:
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

I believe God's Word.

There is no rational way to claim that eternal life is revocable or can be lost."

No scriptures here?

Why do you continue to treat Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 as "no scriptures"?? Very puzzling.

Let's refer to the bible and see:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
What you posted is not scripture, but your opinion, with a scripture "reference" tagged to your opinion.

Then please just come out and admit that your view is that eternal life is NOT a gift of God, then. Because that's exactly what your comments clearly suggest. So, please, just admit it.

Once again, this is not scripture but, your opinion, with a scripture "reference" tagged to your opinion.

Why should anyone treat Rom 6:23 as 'not scripture'?? Please explain.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

It's the gifts and calling together, that are irrevocable, which the context reveals.

Together, as in TWO SEPARATE THINGS IN THE SAME SENTENCE. The words "calling of God" do NOT separate God's gifts, which include justification (3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) from being irrevocable.

iow, BOTH God's gifts, AND God's call, are irrevocable.

1. God's call is irrevocable.
2. God's gifts are irrevocable.

It is just a state of DENIAL to disagree with that.

This revealing truth is obscured, when the scripture is not quoted with it's context.
JLB

What is obscuring is to deny that Rom 6:23 is the context for Rom 11:29, since BOTH verses deal with God's gifts.

 

[chessman]

The branches that are "in Him" that do indeed produce fruit, are not removed from Him, but pruned.

You obviously don't understand pruning. A smart vinedresser prunes grape vines each year by removing last year's branches that produced fruit. In this way, the vine produces even more fruit the following year. Old branches do not produce as much fruit as new ones.

John 15:1-2 (LEB) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch that does not bear fruit in me, he removes it, and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it in order that it may bear more fruit.​

Every branch is removed (taken away) from a properly dressed vine. Which is what this passage states and true to the facts of horticulture as well.

Please explain how a person that is removed from "Him", has eternal life, which is only found "in Him".

Easy.
First, Eternal Life is eternal (not temporary). People with eternal life never perish. Their body die and the body withers away, but so what??? Us branches that are in Him have perishable bodies but eternal lives.

Second you're not quoting the verse. It doesn't say "removed from Him". It says every branch in Him is "removed" or "taken away". Taken to where??? Where do you think Paul (for example) has been moved to (or taken away to) now that His body has died? He's absent the body but with the Lord.

"Taken away" or "removed" DOES NOT mean de-saved or loss of salvation. Else, the Greek word used in John 15 would have been translated that way here. It means what it says; re-moved (moved to a new location, lifted) or taken away somewhere else just as Enoch was "taken away" to a new location (re-
moved).

Hebrews 11:5 (NKJV) By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.​

God took Enoch away, He didn't de-save Enoch.

It's that anti-OSAS indoctrination working, that thinks "taken away" means de-saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That isn't the issue, as you well know. No one has yet provided any verses that teach that one can lose eternal life.

You haven't provided any verses that say it's impossible to lose eternal life.
But we've provided several verses that show that if you stop believing you lose God/Christ/eternal life. But of course, you just claim they don't mean what they so plainly say, even redefining terms to guard your preconceived doctrine.

Here Paul talks about the believing branches being taken out of the tree if they stop believing:

"20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

And we know that unbelieving, unfruitful branches are lost branches. That's why they are cut out of the tree and are designated for burning in the fire. They simply do not belong to the Lord because of unbelief:

"10“Go up through her vine rows and destroy,
But do not execute a complete destruction;
Strip away her branches,
For they are not the LORD’S." (Jeremiah 5:10 NASB bold and underline mine)

And the Bible is very clear that eternal life is a gift of God (Ro 6:23), and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

God still calling and gifting the Israelites, even though they rejected the Messiah (Romans 11:8-29 NASB), in no way shape or form supports or proves that once a person believes and is saved that God will never revoke their salvation. You keep using a piece of a sentence in scripture to defend OSAS that isn't even talking about OSAS!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If eternal life was an exception to the teaching of Rom 11:29, then Paul would have made that crystal clear, and not by some farming metaphor.

You simply don't have ears to hear. The argument is not about what the gifts and calling are. The argument you have to address is the passage is not even about a person believing and being saved and then never being able to lose that salvation. YOU made it to be that by snipping part of a sentence from the passage (Romans 11:29 NASB) and then completely and utterly ignoring what the context shows that snippet actually means. A simple read of the passage shows that what is irrevocable is God's calling and gifting to Israel. End of discussion. It has nothing to do with a believer never being able to lose his salvation no matter what.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"That isn't the issue, as you well know. No one has yet provided any verses that teach that one can lose eternal life."

You haven't provided any verses that say it's impossible to lose eternal life.

I don't need to. I did a whole lot better than that. I provided verses that clearly indicate that eternal life, which is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Because it is irrevocable, it's simply impossible to lose it.

No verse says it is possible to lose it, and 2 verses very clearly indicate that it is irrevocable.

But we've provided several verses that show that if you stop believing you lose God/Christ/eternal life.

No, you haven't done that. That has to be assumed in the verses provided. It sure isn't clearly stated.

But of course, you just claim they don't mean what they so plainly say, even redefining terms to guard your preconceived doctrine.

I point out that they actually DON'T say what is being claimed that they say. It is clear that many think that's what the verses MEAN, but they sure DON'T say it.

Here Paul talks about the believing branches being taken out of the tree if they stop believing:

"20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

Again, this isn't about losing eternal life/salvation, as is being assumed. It's about being removed from service. Which would have been a real shock to Jews, who considered themselves better then Gentiles because of being God's chosen people.

God still calling and gifting the Israelites

But Rom 11:29 isn't about "the Israelites", since Paul previously in Romans mentioned that God's call was to the Gentiles as well, and everyone understands that the gifts of justification (3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) are for ALL believers, both Jew and Gentile.

So there isn't anything in Rom 11:29 that indicates the verse is only for Jews.

even though they rejected the Messiah (Romans 11:8-29 NASB), in no way shape or form supports or proves that once a person believes and is saved that God will never revoke their salvation. You keep using a piece of a sentence in scripture to defend OSAS that isn't even talking about OSAS!

lol. By writing that God's gifts are irrevocable, AFTER describing both justification and eternal life as gifts that are from God, 11:29 SURE IS about eternal security.

But some will just never see it. Kinda like Isa 6:9,10 says.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If eternal life was an exception to the teaching of Rom 11:29, then Paul would have made that crystal clear, and not by some farming metaphor."

You simply don't have ears to hear.

Please hold up a mirror when claiming that. It applies to yourself directly.

No one has shown that Paul intended 11:29 to refer only to Jews. That would be absurd.

The argument is not about what the gifts and calling are.

Right. There can be no argument, since Paul very specifically described God's gifts before he penned 11:29. And no one has been able to show anywhere in Romans where Paul dissociated 6:23 from 11:29, as your side has been vainly trying to do!!

The argument you have to address is the passage is not even about a person believing and being saved and then never being able to lose that salvation.

Opinion noted. But when Paul wrote that God's gifts were irrevocable, AFTER writing that eternal life is a gift of God, he MOST ASSUREDLY WAS teaching eternal security.

YOU made it to be that by snipping part of a sentence from the passage (Romans 11:29 NASB) and then completely and utterly ignoring what the context shows that snippet actually means. A simple read of the passage shows that what is irrevocable is God's calling and gifting to Israel.

Interesting. I'm charged with "snipping part of a verse", and yet you've ADDED to the passage. So it's OK to ADD to God's word as one feels necessary, but it's not OK to leave out a part of a verse that doesn't apply to one's point.

I've NEVER ever suggested that God's calling is not irrevocable. But it's just not applicable to the issue of eternal security.

End of discussion. It has nothing to do with a believer never being able to lose his salvation no matter what.

One can claim anything they want. But it takes clear and unambiguous verses to prove one's point. Which your side has not done.

Rom 6:23 and 11:29 are directly related because both verses deal with God's gifts. Denial of that is denial of the truth.

 

[WIP]

Okay, time for a break. There's too much "He said, she said" going on and mostly arguing from personal opinion and not from the Scriptures.