What does abiding in Christ refer to?

[FreeGrace]

To what do you think "remain in me" is referring.
If you are "in Christ" then you are saved.
If you are not "in Christ" then you are not saved.
It is that simple.

Yes, it is simple, but not as you've claimed.

The phrase "remain in Me" obviously indicates action on the part of the believer. So that, IN AND OF ITSELF removes any reference to salvation, because we are saved by grace through faith, and NOT OF WORKS. Eph 2:8,9.

And, since "remain in Me" is a reference to fellowship, the believer MUST cooperate in being in fellowship.

Jesus said: Jhn 15:4 “Abide in Me,..."
The word "abide" is μείνατε (meinate) in Greek. It is an instruction, or a command. "You remain in me."

So, it seems your point is that we are commanded to keep ourselves saved. Is that correct?

It is the same word uses at Mat 26:38 "Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain (μείνατε) here, and watch with me."

How does this relate to the discussion? Jesus was requesting His disciples to STAY with Him. Not to stay saved, as you seem to be advocating. Which makes no sense.

So when Jesus said: “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off ;and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit." (Jhn 15:1-2 RSV)

Once again, I will point out that the passage is about bearing fruit, not trying to stay saved.

This is literature.
Jesus utilized metaphor to illustrate his teaching that (a) they (the disciples and, by extension, all believers) are to produce fruit; that (b) they must remain in Him to do so; (c) that it is possible to not remain in Christ; and (d) if one does not remain in Christ, he will produce no fruit, he will whither and die, and be thrown into hell.

This is nothing more than salvation by works, then. Which I reject because that is not taught in Scripture. Just the opposite, in fact.

Eph 2:8,9 says we are saved by grace through faith, not of works.

It is a simple enough passage for any average reader to understand unless the reader had chosen to blind himself to anything that did not dove-tail perfectly with his preconceived, erroneous notions.

That's exactly my sentiments when I read posts from those who think that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

We need to do that so we will continue to have Jesus/ eternal life.

There is NOTHING we "need" to do to "continue to have Jesus/eternal life".

Scripture teaches the exact opposite.
First, eternal life is a gift of God, so says Rom 6:23.
Second, God's gifts are irrevocable, so says Rom 11:29.
Therefore, it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for one to lose eternal life. And irrational to think so.

Jesus never promised that to those He gives eternal life will never perish AS LONG AS they continue to meet certain conditions.

In fact, Jesus NEVER added any conditions to those He gives eternal life. We know the ONLY condition for receiving eternal life is faith in Christ. But there are NO CONDITIONS beyond that initial belief for receiving eternal life. And ONCE received, they WILL NEVER PERISH.

And the view of loss of salvation cannot defend their position given what Jesus said in John 10:28.

 

[JLB]

(1) Salvation is having eternal life.
Salvation, having eternal life, is inseparable from the concept of being "in Christ."
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.
(2) Being "in Christ" encompasses several things.
A. It includes believing that Jesus is the Son of God who was crucified for our sins and raised from the dead.
Rom 4:25 (Jesus Christ) was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
1Co 15:3-4 ... Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
2Co 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
(3) God alone has eternal life by nature. (It is par of what He is.)
Jhn 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
We have eternal life by having faith in Christ.
We remain "in Christ" by being faithful to Christ
We are faithful to Christ by keeping His commands.
Jhn 15:17 This I command you, to love one another.
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
Jhn 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:23 If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

OOPS!!! I hit the wrong button and posted before I was finished!
Continued below...

Yes sir.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes sir.

Regardless if there is agreement or disagreement, are you able to explain the point of the OP?

 

[JLB]

Regardless if there is agreement or disagreement, are you able to explain the point of the OP?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


Jesus teaches us that abiding in Him is likened to a branch that is connected or joined to a vine, in which the branch receives the "life" that the vine provides.

We who are "in Christ", are joined to Him as a branch is joined to the vine, in which we who are joined to Him, receive the eternal life from which He provides.


Jesus says those who do not remain or continue to be joined to Him, will wither and be cast into the fire and burned, no longer having access to the eternal life He once provided.


Those who are "in Him" have eternal life.
Those who are not "in Him" do not have eternal life.

In Him = Eternal life
Removed from Him = Eternal death; cast into the fire and burned.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rather, Scripture teaches just the opposite.
1 Sam 16:7 - But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

No, John's plain words are that we can tell who a child of the devil is by their lack of fruitful righteousness:
"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)
Which part do you not understand?

There is NO MENTION of anything being destroyed. Just "cut off". It takes a wild imagination to equate being cut off with going to hell.

It takes a 'wild imagination' to think the Jews who were cut out of the vine because of unbelief went to hell?
You're kidding, right?
Where do unbelieving Jews go if not to hell?????

Well, what part of my explanation of v.9 do you not understand? One cannot ignore immediately preceding verses when trying to proof text a single verse.

Here's the whole passage:
"4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:4-10 NASB)

According to this it's impossible to say unfruitful people are children of God. In fact, John himself says it is OBVIOUS who the children of the devil are by their unfruitfulness. You can not just decide to contradict the Apostle John and say that it is NOT obvious by one's lack of fruit that they are a child of the devil.

I would suggest that you read it. It does not say "belong" in the verse. The point is that sin is "not of God". Pretty obvious, I would think.

What's pretty obvious is the passage says the unfruitful person is not of God. It does NOT say their sin is not of God. "anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God" (1 John 3:10 NASB bold and underline mine)

Don't twist the passage away from what it plainly says. The PERSON is known by whether they are fruitful or not. Children of the devil are made OBVIOUS by their lack of fruit. That is what the passage says. And fruitless children of the devil cut out of the vine are hardly saved. They are cast into the fiery hell. That is the fate of all unsaved, unfruitful children of the devil.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is NOTHING we "need" to do to "continue to have Jesus/eternal life".

Scripture teaches the exact opposite.
[...]
Second, God's gifts are irrevocable, so says Rom 11:29.

What does the door of salvation still being open to the Jews even though their fathers rejected the Messiah have to do with a person not being able to lose their salvation????? Nothing, of course.

And the view of loss of salvation cannot defend their position given what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Everybody knows Christ's sheep will never perish. That is not in contention.
Stop being one of his sheep through a denial of Christ and you no longer have the protection that only Christ's sheep have:

23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:23-25 NASB bold and underline mine)

The 'abiding' being spoken above is not the abiding of fellowship, it's about eternal life (vs.25). Anti-christ's are not simply guilty of being out of fellowship with God, lol. They have denied Christ altogether and, therefore, do not abide in him and have no promise of eternal life. And John warns us ("As for you", vs.24) to let the word abide in us that we heard from the beginning so that we won't become like the anti-christs who have denied the Son, and as a result, do not have the Father nor eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus says those who do not remain or continue to be joined to Him, will wither and be cast into the fire and burned, no longer having access to the eternal life He once provided.

This is impossible, since the Bible TELLS US that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Those who are "in Him" have eternal life.
Those who are not "in Him" do not have eternal life.

In Him = Eternal life
Removed from Him = Eternal death; cast into the fire and burned.
JLB

There are not any verses in Scripture that describe anyone being "removed from Christ". That, too, is an impossibility, since Eph 1:13 and 14 teach that those who believed are sealed with the Holy Spirit, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, John's plain words are that we can tell who a child of the devil is by their lack of fruitful righteousness:
"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)
Which part do you not understand?

Since I very thoroughly explained what v.10 means by exegeting v.9, it appears that I'm not the one who isn't understanding.

It takes a 'wild imagination' to think the Jews who were cut out of the vine because of unbelief went to hell?
You're kidding, right?
Where do unbelieving Jews go if not to hell?????

Why should anyone assume that Rom 11 is about going to hell? That has not been explained or proven. Please provide a clear explanation of why anyone should understand "cut off" indicates loss of salvation and being cast into hell.

So far, all I've seen is an opinion and assumption of what Rom 11 means to you.

Here's the whole passage:
"4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:4-10 NASB)

According to this it's impossible to say unfruitful people are children of God.

Since Eph 2:8 and 9 SAY that salvation is by grace through faith, and NOT OF OURSELVES, it should be obvious that your understanding of the passage in 1 John 3 cannot be what is being claimed.

The conclusion of your views regarding 1 John 3 is that "practicing righteousness" is how one is either saved or how one stays saved.

That is impossible in light of what Eph 2:8,9 clearly and very plainly SAYS.

What's pretty obvious is the passage says the unfruitful

person is not of God. It does NOT say their sin is not of God. "anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God" (1 John 3:10 NASB bold and underline mine)

Again, Eph 2:8,9 does not permit your understanding of 1 John 3.

Don't twist the passage away from what it plainly says.

I politely ask that of your own views.

You've been shown many verses and passages that directly refute your views. And you've not been able to defend your views against the verses I've shown. You've given no explanation of the verses I've used to show that they don't mean or say what I claim they say and mean.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"There is NOTHING we "need" to do to "continue to have Jesus/eternal life".

Scripture teaches the exact opposite.[...]
Second, God's gifts are irrevocable, so says Rom 11:29."

What does the door of salvation still being open to the Jews even though their fathers rejected the Messiah have to do with a person not being able to lose their salvation????? Nothing, of course.

Who said it did? The door still being open to the Jews is just that: the Jews can still be saved through believing in Jesus as the Messiah.

The verses that had to be ignored were Rom 6:23 which describes eternal life as a gift of God and Rom 11:29 which describes God's gifts as irrevocable. Why should anyone think that Rom 11:29 doesn't refer back to the specific gifts of God that Paul mentioned before he wrote 11:29?? Please explain.

Everybody knows Christ's sheep will never perish. That is not in contention.

Well, maybe there's some progress here. Since your view is that one can lose salvation, the burden of proving that would lie in providing verses that teach or indicate that a sheep can change into a goat. I'd be happy to consider any such verse.

Stop being one of his sheep through a denial of Christ and you no longer have the protection that only Christ's sheep have:

23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:23-25 NASB bold and underline mine)

OK, please provide any verse that shows that someone can "stop being one of His sheep". Where is that verse? Your claims are just assumptions and opinions unless there is clear Scripture that says what is being claimed.

The 'abiding' being spoken above is not the abiding of fellowship, it's about eternal life (vs.25).

This is an opinion from an assumption. Where are the verses to back up this claim?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since Eph 2:8 and 9 SAY that salvation is by grace through faith, and NOT OF OURSELVES, it should be obvious that your understanding of the passage in 1 John 3 cannot be what is being claimed.

The conclusion of your views regarding 1 John 3 is that "practicing righteousness" is how one is either saved or how one stays saved.

That is impossible in light of what Eph 2:8,9 clearly and very plainly SAYS.

How is a child of the devil saved?
"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3: NASB)
Are you still set on contradicting John and saying that the unfruitful 'branch' is saved and merely cut off from fellowship, not from eternal life? John says that branch is a 'child of the devil'. I know of no child of the devil who has eternal life. Do you?

Again, Eph 2:8,9 does not permit your understanding of 1 John 3.

Then, please, explain how fruitless "children of the devil" are actually saved and only removed from the vine in regard to fellowship. We're all waiting.

You've been shown many verses and passages that directly refute your views. And you've not been able to defend your views against the verses I've shown. You've given no explanation of the verses I've used to show that they don't mean or say what I claim they say and mean.

If your interpretation of other verses is true then fruitless branches are actually saved branches , in complete and utter contradiction to John. So we know your interpretation is wrong.

 

[LovethroughDove]

To abide in Christ, means: to remain in the Word.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

His words grow the harvest of righteousness in our soul. You will either abide (Never, Sometimes, and Always). It is whether your heart is ready to receive.

 

[FreeGrace]

How is a child of the devil saved?

That's exactly what a jailer asked Paul.

This is the question he asked in Acts 16:
"30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

This is Paul's answer to the jailer:
31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

That's how anyone gets saved.

Then, please, explain how fruitless "children of the devil" are actually saved and only removed from the vine in regard to fellowship. We're all waiting.

I just gave the "how" for anyone to get saved. I believe what Paul told the jailer. Do you?

If your interpretation of other verses is true then fruitless branches are actually saved branches ,

in complete and utter contradiction to John. So we know your interpretation is wrong.

I've provided very clear verses about the FACT that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

So it appears that your interpretation of ALL verses and passages that you believe teach loss of salvation actually don't teach that at all.

The Bible is not internally contradicted.

No way, no how.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, maybe there's some progress here. Since your view is that one can lose salvation, the burden of proving that would lie in providing verses that teach or indicate that a sheep can change into a goat. I'd be happy to consider any such verse.

Here it is. 'Sheep' branches being cut out of the vine as 'goat' branches:

"you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

We know from John 15 that branches get cut out of the vine because of unfruitfulness.
We know from 1 John 3 that unfruitfulness means being a child of the devil.
Paul warns above that even though you stand by faith now, you can and will be cut out of the vine for not continuing in the grace of God.

Notice the "you stand by your faith". The very thing I've been saying for months in this forum. Continuing in salvation is conditional on you continuing in your faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's exactly what a jailer asked Paul.

This is the question he asked in Acts 16:
"30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

This is Paul's answer to the jailer:
31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

That's how anyone gets saved.

Booooo!
It occurred to me that you would try to wiggle out of this with this lame diversion.

So, no more diversion. You have to show us how it is that unfruitful, child of the devil branches are in actuality saved, children of God branches. As it is right now, you're arguing that unfruitful branches being cut out of the vine are actually saved, children of God branches, in complete contradiction to John who says unfruitful people are obviously children of the devil, not children of God (1 John 3:10 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I've provided very clear verses about the FACT that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

What does God not revoking the promise of Abraham's blessing from the Jews, even though they rejected the Messiah, have to do with a believer never being able to lose their salvation? Nothing, of course. You're using a verse that has nothing to do with proving that a believer can never lose their salvation.

 

[Jim Parker]

The phrase "remain in Me" obviously indicates action on the part of the believer. So that, IN AND OF ITSELF removes any reference to salvation, because we are saved by grace through faith, and NOT OF WORKS. Eph 2:8,9.

sigh - Once again, "proof-texting" leads you off down your favorite rabbit trail.

I ask, therefore, what ELSE did Paul say in Ephesians 2?
He said:
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10 NKJV)
Those works would be the fruit that we are to bear in order to remain in Christ.
Those are the same works to which Jesus referred when He said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." (Mat 5:16 NKJV)
Do you assume that if someone neglects to do that for which God created him to do, and, not only that, but teach others to neglect God's purpose for their lives, that he will be saved?
Such an illogical assumption has absolutely no basis in scripture.

Continuing:
(Eph 2:11-12) Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
By the references to "the covenants of promise", Paul makes it clear that the "works" of which he was speaking in v.8 were "works of the Law."

As he stated elsewhere;
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 9:32 ... they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

In contrast, Paul repeatedly prescribes "good works" as normal for believers.

1Ti 2:9-10 ... women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
1Ti 5:9-10 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

In the following verses, Paul connected the doing of good works (bearing fruit) with laying hold of eternal life. (Salvation)
(1Ti 6:17-19 ) Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Tit 2:6-7a Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded, in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works;
Tit 2:14 (Jesus Christ) who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

In this verse, Paul identifies "bearing fruit" with "good works:"And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. (Tit 3:14 )

Thus, by his instruction, Paul made a very clear distinction between "works of the Law", by which no one will be saved because no one can keep for his entire life without any violation of even the smallest requirement of the law, and "good works" which are the obligation of every believer in Jesus Christ in that we bear fruit.

As the NLT renders Mat 3:8, it is necessary that a believer: "Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God."

So, all you have done by trotting out your favorite "I don't have to do anything proof text" is to make it abundantly clear that you have ignored (or, perhaps, are merely ignorant of) the rest of Paul's teaching prescribing good works as the fruit which a believer is to bear and his very clear and purposeful differentiation between "good works" and "works of the law."


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

Notice the "you stand by your faith". The very thing I've been saying for months in this forum. Continuing in salvation is conditional on you continuing in your faith.

And the people sang:



AAA - ay- ay MEN!
AAA - ay- ay MEN!
AAA - ay - men
AAA - ay - men
A-MEN!

 

[Jim Parker]

Regardless if there is agreement or disagreement, are you able to explain the point of the OP?

OP: "So, the command to "remain in Him" or "abide in Him" cannot refer to how to maintain one's salvation, but rather, how to bear much fruit. Or "participating in the divine nature"."
That "point" has been refuted over and over and over and again and again and again.
Anybody home????

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Well, maybe there's some progress here. Since your view is that one can lose salvation, the burden of proving that would lie in providing verses that teach or indicate that a sheep can change into a goat. I'd be happy to consider any such verse."

Here it is. 'Sheep' branches being cut out of the vine as 'goat' branches:

"you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

I'm quite sorry, but I just don't see the word "goats" anywhere in these verses. Could you direct me to verses that actually say that sheep become goats, since that is your view. Thanks.

We know from John 15 that branches get cut out of the vine because of unfruitfulness.

Which is NOT sheep becoming goats.

We know from 1 John 3 that unfruitfulness means being a child of the devil.

Which is NOT sheep becoming goats.

Paul warns above that even though you stand by faith now, you can and will be cut out of the vine for not continuing in the grace of God.

I've not said anything different.

Notice the "you stand by your faith".

Yes, I noticed.

The very thing I've been saying for months in this forum. Continuing in salvation is conditional on you continuing in your faith.

Except there are no verses that say that.

There ARE, otoh, there is a verse that tell us that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23). And a verse that says that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

The connection is unmistakable. Both verses are about God's gifts. Which are irrevocable.