What does abiding in Christ refer to?

[JLB]

It seems you fail to understand what is being kept here.

More opinion, and fruitless acussations, rather than adressing what is being discussed.


Please answer the question from the scripture I provided.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Do you believe that a person who is no longer "in Christ", has eternal life?

 

[JLB]

Why do you consider Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30 to be "no scriptures"??

Still no scripture has been provided.

This is an abbreviated scripture reference, and contains no scripture.

Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30

 

[JLB]

What is clear is how people misunderstand the metaphors of Jesus.

More opinion with no scripture, which is what your theology is built upon; the shifting sand of mans idea's, and theories, and logic.2

How does a person who is removed from being "in Him", still posses eternal life, which is only found "in Him"?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Please provide the scriptures that prove there is eternal life in a person who is no longer "in Christ".




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

More opinion, and fruitless acussations, rather than adressing what is being discussed.


Please answer the question from the scripture I provided.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Do you believe that a person who is no longer "in Christ", has eternal life?

Since I thoroughly disagree with what appears to be your understanding of John 15, there is no reason to answer your question.

There is nothing in John 15 that says anything about losing salvation or eternal life.

Because the Bible teaches the exact opposite:
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
God's gifts are irrevocable. Rom 11:29

I believe God's Word.

There is no rational way to claim that eternal life is revocable or can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Why do you consider Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30 to be "no scriptures"??"

Still no scripture has been provided.

OK, this is twice, now. So the clear message is that Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 are not Scripture in your view. Why is that?

This is an abbreviated scripture reference, and contains no scripture.
Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30

What does that mean? Are you unable to steady your cursor over each citation and just read the actual words? If that's so, how in the world were the words typed in your posts?

 

[FreeGrace]

More opinion with no scripture, which is what your theology is built upon; the shifting sand of mans idea's, and theories, and logic.2

How does a person who is removed from being "in Him", still posses eternal life, which is only found "in Him"?

Flawed question since you've not shown from Scripture that anyone who has been sealed "in Him" has been unsealed from Him.

Once that can be shown from Scripture, we'll continue the discussion.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This metaphor does not prove your opinion. Jesus used a metaphor. Please show me any Scripture without metaphors to prove that one sealed "in Him" can be or has been unsealed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Except Rom 4:6 doesn't say that the faith will produce fruit.

I didn't say Romans 4:6 NASB does. Romans 4:6 is where we see that justification is by faith apart from works. From there we see that Paul says that this faith that justifies apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB) is the faith that works through love (Galatians 5:6 NASB).

But the Protestant church is sure that Paul and James and John are wrong and that faith that can not be seen in works of love justifies too. Faith that does not change a person into a fruit bearing person is a (so-called) faith that did not justify them. They are the branches that Jesus cuts out of the vine. If they had life in them he would keep them and trim them back. But as it is, they have no life in them as evidenced by their dead lack of fruit, therefore, they are cut out of the vine and burned. If they had life in them He would keep them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since we are commanded to produce fruit, it should be quite obvious that bearing fruit isn't guaranteed. One must be in fellowship with Christ, or "abiding in Him". This is a spiritual growth issue, not a loss of salvation issue.

No, it's an eternal life issue.
John plainly said the unfruitful person is an unsaved person.

"4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

11For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;12not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous.

13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:4-15 NASB)

"Make sure no one deceives you", John says (vs.7). Unfruitful, unloving, unrighteous people are "of the devil" (vs.8), "children of the devil" (vs.10), and "not of God" (vs.10), and do not have "eternal life abiding in him" (vs.15). But the deceived masses in the church today have been taught that since salvation is so utterly not of works that John is wrong and that unrighteous people are saved, too, or else the gospel would be a works gospel. Hardly true. Their's is a very, very ignorant argument. They are unaware of the footprints that true saving faith leaves--the same footprints of faith Abraham left behind and which we, also, as people with faith in the promise walk in--the footprints of obedience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Opinion noted. What verses support this claim?

47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” (Luke 7:47 NASB)

But the Protestant church is certain there is zero connection between being forgiven and being loving (producing fruit). They stupidly think that Jesus is wrong and to think there is a necessary connection between forgiveness and love (like getting wet has to going swimming) is to make the gospel a works gospel, not knowing that fruit is the evidence that a change of life has occurred in a person, and that no fruit shows that no change of life has occurred or has ceased.

John expresses it like this:

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.
17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?"
(1 John 3:14,17 NASB)

He asks the rhetorical question how the love of God can be in a person that does not love. Of course it can't be in a person if they don't love. If a person does not produce the fruit of godly love, obviously, the love of God is not in him. They are still "in the flesh", as Paul calls it (Romans 8:5-8 NASB). They have no capacity to bear fruit, thus showing themselves to still be in the flesh and without the Spirit of God and, therefore, do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9 NASB).

But it will be argued endlessly in this Protestant forum that works have no connection whatsoever with the faith that justifies. They are sure that being fruitless in no way shape or form indicates if a person has faith in God's forgiveness. Because they have been taught that to think so is to make salvation earned on the basis of works. How incredibly ignorant. But that is what the church has been teaching for almost 500 years now, until we've come to this horrible 'free grace' hyper-grace doctrine that has even unbelieving, Christ denying people possessing Jesus/ eternal life by the Holy Spirit because to think otherwise would be to make salvation by works (so the misguided, erroneous argument goes).

The church has fallen a long, long way. My opinion is this false doctrine that eliminates any and all necessary connection between the faith that justifies (all by itself) and works is the basis for the end-time great falling away. It's happening at this very time in church history. It has deluded and deceived many, many people in the Protestant church.

 

[WIP]

Not necessarily directed at the last post but there are too many personal stabs or jabs being thrown around. If these continue, the guilty party(s) will get a vacation from this thread. Frustrated or not, there is no justification for doing this.

 

[FreeGrace]

I didn't say Romans 4:6 NASB does. Romans 4:6 is where we see that justification is by faith apart from works. From there we see that Paul says that this faith that justifies apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB) is the faith that works through love (Galatians 5:6 NASB).

I still don't see anything about justification being "through love". I gave several verses from Rom 3 that say that justification is by faith.

Faith that does not change a person into a fruit bearing person is a (so-called) faith that did not justify them.

Please include verses that say this. I haven't found any.

They are the branches that Jesus cuts out of the vine. If they had life in them he would keep them and trim them back. But as it is, they have no life in them as evidenced by their dead lack of fruit, therefore, they are cut out of the vine and burned. If they had life in them He would keep them.

If John 15:1-6 is about how to lose salvation, then the Bible is contradicted, because Jesus said that those who believe HAVE (present tense) eternal life and WILL NEVER PERISH. JOHN 3:16, 10:28

Once again, the subject of John 15:1-6 is that fruit bearing requires fellowship, which is what "abide in Him" refers to. We don't have the power to either place ourselves "in Him", as your view insinuates, or the power to remove ourselves from being "in Him"

Jesus was clear that those who have been given eternal life are IN HIS hand, and "no one" meaning "no person" can snatch them out of His hand.

Do you consider believers to be persons? If so, then even the believer themself cannot remove themself out of His hand

There just isn't any verse that indicates that man has the power to put themself into Christ or remove them from being in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, it's an eternal life issue.

Paul clarified that eternal life is a gift of God, and then said that God's gifts are irrevocable. So any idea that any passage teaches loss of salvation just cannot be.

John plainly said the unfruitful person is an unsaved person.

"4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

11For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;12not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous.

13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:4-15 NASB)

I don't see any mention of "an unsaved person", so how can one make such a claim?

"Make sure no one deceives you", John says (vs.7). Unfruitful, unloving, unrighteous people are "of the devil" (vs.8), "children of the devil" (vs.10), and "not of God" (vs.10), and do not have "eternal life abiding in him" (vs.15).

When a believer commits sin, is that action "of God" or "of the devil"? Please answer.

And when a believer sins, have they lost their eternal life? Please answer.

But the deceived masses in the church today have been taught that since salvation is so utterly not of works

Is this a claim that Paul deceived the masses when he wrote Eph 2:8,9 then?
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

When I read these verses, I read that salvation "is so utterly NOT OF WORKS". Why would Paul deceive the masses?

 

[FreeGrace]

The church has fallen a long, long way. My opinion is this false doctrine that eliminates any and all necessary connection between the faith that justifies (all by itself) and works is the basis for the end-time great falling away. It's happening at this very time in church history. It has deluded and deceived many, many people in the Protestant church.

Yes, Christianity has been deceived by a lot of false teachings. Among them the idea that salvation can be lost, especially since Scripture is so clear about it.

 

[Jim Parker]

How does a person who is removed from being "in Him", still posses eternal life, which is only found "in Him"?

Not fair!!!
You're being logical and reasoned!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I still don't see anything about justification being "through love". I gave several verses from Rom 3 that say that justification is by faith.

I know this is hard for Protestants to hear. We are trained to not even be able to hear the argument. Protestants instantly think 'works salvation' whenever you bring up works in a faith/works discussion. Instantly. And then from that point onward they can't hear a thing you say.

Justification is by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB). That is not in contention.
What is in contention is the false belief that the faith that does not produce fruit (love, etc.) is the faith that justifies. Not even remotely true.

Fruit is the expected and obligatory outcome of justifying faith. No fruit means the person does not have a faith that can justify them. The fruit does no justifying. It only signifies the presence of the Holy Spirit that God gives when a person has justifying faith. The proof of the indwelling Holy Spirit is a new life of fruit bearing. No fruit bearing means no indwelling Holy Spirit to produce that fruit. John says the unrighteous, fruitless, disobedient person is simply not saved. They are of the devil, not of God (1 John 3:8 NASB).

What all this means is, dead branches are removed from the vine because they have no fruit. They have no fruit because they do not have the Holy Spirit/ eternal life in them to produce that fruit. Those branches get cut out of Christ and burned. It's a complete and utter contradiction of scripture to say that unfruitful branches have life in them and are saved. The unfruitful person belongs to the devil, not God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If John 15:1-6 is about how to lose salvation, then the Bible is contradicted, because Jesus said that those who believe HAVE (present tense) eternal life and WILL NEVER PERISH. JOHN 3:16, 10:28

Of course THOSE WHO BELIEVE have eternal life and will never perish! Who here says otherwise?
The condition for having eternal life and never perishing is BELIEVING. No one is arguing against that. Stop believing and the promise is not for you anymore. Protestants can only hear that as a works gospel. Somehow they think that if you have to have faith to have eternal life and stay saved that's a works gospel. Please, someone show me where it says faith is among Paul's works that he says constitute a works gospel.

Protestants have a hard time even understanding the argument. They literally can't see it. The OSAS indoctrination has so blinded their eyes they simply can not see the argument, let alone accept it. Faith in Christ is not a work of the law that it can't be a condition for staying saved. No where does the Bible say if you have to keep believing to stay saved you are trying to earn your salvation. No where.

 

[Jim Parker]

I know this is hard for Protestants to hear. We are trained to not even be able to hear the argument. Protestants instantly think 'works salvation' whenever you bring up works in a faith/works discussion. Instantly. And then from that point onward they can't hear a thing you say.

Hmmmm............ I get the same response from JWs and Mormons...........
jus' sayin' no offense

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hmmmm............ I get the same response from JWs and Mormons...........
jus' sayin' no offense

It happens wherever there is indoctrination.

People get hardened into their pet indoctrination and everything they hear gets filtered through that indoctrination. In this case, whenever someone starts talking about OSAS, OSASer's instantly hear the argument against them as a works gospel argument. Instantly. And no matter how much explaining you do to make them see the argument they continue to see it the way their indoctrination tells them to see it.

Case in point. In another thread a certain member was participating who always hears what I say as a defense for a works gospel. So, when someone else in the thread expressed some agreement with what I was saying they instantly got branded 'works gospel'. That other person was like, "where'd that come from?" We had not even been talking about that subject and the person was at a loss as to why they were branded that way. But it illustrated perfectly how once a person gets hardened in a certain belief that's all they are capable of seeing and understanding no matter.

In this thread, we see the power of the indoctrination in how this passage gets interpreted:

"7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

11For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;12not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous.

13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:7-15 NASB)

To avoid the obvious truth that unfruitful branches are unsaved branches, "of the devil", "children of the devil", and "not of God" are interpreted as meaning acting like those things, not being those things. And the subject, "eternal life" (vs.15) gets ignored altogether in favor of "fellowship". That is the power of an indoctrination. It blinds the eyes to the plain words of scripture in preference to what it has been told.

But anyway, the whole case being made here from scripture is it is the unfruitful branches that get cut off (John 15:2 NASB). Paul says the branches that are cut out of the tree are cut out for reason of unbelief (Romans 11:20 NASB), while the remaining branches are there by faith. Then John says that unfruitful 'branches' are unsaved branches who do not have eternal life in them and are of the devil (see above). So it's clear that the branches that are cut out of the tree are unsaved, unbelieving branches that do not belong to Christ. They are not cut out for reason of lack of fellowship as is claimed in order to preserve a OSAS doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hmmmm............ I get the same response from JWs and Mormons...........
jus' sayin' no offense

Oh, and by the way. I don't see why you think I'd be offended.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And when a believer sins, have they lost their eternal life? Please answer.

Only if the sinning is the result of a conscious decision to abandon faith in Christ, and God has turned them over to that decision.

Your faith in Christ is what keeps His ministry active on your behalf in heaven (It is required that it always be active for a person: Hebrews 7:25 NASB). The person who stops believing and goes back to their old life loses Christ's ministry in heaven and has no sacrifice any where in all the universe to cover their sin now (Hebrews 10:26 NASB). They can not have the continuing effect of a ministry that they no longer possess by faith. There is nothing left for them except the wrath of God (Hebrews 10:27 NASB).