What does abiding in Christ refer to?

[chessman]

If you ain't got no fruit, you ain't got the faith that justifies/saves.

So a branch is attached to the vine (i.e. in Christ, 'saved'), bout how long does Christ allow before you must produce fruit in order to maintain your salvation on your view? One harvest cycle? How about next year, how much fruit u got to produce on your view to remain 'saved'?

 

[FreeGrace]

Fruit bearing is what justifiying faith looks like.

I think you've misunderstood. When one believes, THEY are justified. It is justification BY FAITH, not justification by bearing fruit.

Even Paul points out that it is the faith that works through love (the fruit of the Spirit) that justifies.

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

Once again, I respectfully disagree. Ch 5 begins with the subject of FREEDOM. Then Paul points out that no one is justified by the law (v.4). So your insertion of "toward justification" isn't justified at all.

If you ain't got no fruit, you ain't got the faith that justifies/saves.

If that were true, then Paul WOULD NOT HAVE written Epoh 2:8,9 nor Rom 4:4,5.

Fruit is how you know if the branch belongs to the tree.

No, God doesn't need to see fruit to know who belongs to Him. Fruit bearing does indicate to other humans whether one has faith or not. That is what James wrote about in ch 2.

 

[JLB]

Thats quite a stretch. Once again, only those believers who "keep it" will bear fruit.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

Do you believe those who do not reproduce the fruit of the seed, have eternal life?


Jesus again refutes that notion.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Jesus completely destroys the false OSAS doctrine in 1 verse.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

All you have to do now is provide a scripture that says those who are not "in Christ" have eternal life.

These who are "in Him" that do not produce fruit are removed, separated, "cut off " from Him.



Case Closed!



JLB

 

[JLB]

So a branch is attached to the vine (i.e. in Christ, 'saved'), bout how long does Christ allow before you must produce fruit in order to maintain your salvation on your view? One harvest cycle? How about next year, how much fruit u got to produce on your view to remain 'saved'?

This is Jesus' view, not Jethro's.

Your asking the wrong person.

Jethro didn't write the words.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2




JLB

 

[JLB]

I think you've misunderstood. When one believes, THEY are justified. It is justification BY FAITH, not justification by bearing fruit.

What happens when they stop believing?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

Do you believe those who do not reproduce the fruit of the seed, have eternal life?

It seems you fail to understand what is being kept here.

Jesus again refutes that notion.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Jesus completely destroys the false OSAS doctrine in 1 verse.

lol Jesus very clearly taught eternal security. Those who believe HAVE eternal life and WILL NOT PERISH, per John 3:16 and 10:28.

And...there are no verses that tell us that God will take away eternal life. None. Nada. Zilch. Zippo.

In fact, Scripture teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God. What could be more clear than that?

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

It's clear that many people today are as confused by Jesus' parables and metaphors as His own disciples were in His day.

All you have to do now is provide a scripture that says those who are not "in Christ" have eternal life.

These who are "in Him" that do not produce fruit are removed, separated, "cut off " from Him.

That cannot be possible, since Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 teach that everyone who believes is sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee, or promise, and this sealing is FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. How coud it be more clear than this?

Further, there are no verses that speak specifically about this particular seal being broken FOR ANY REASON.

So it is just a very poor assumption to think it can be broken.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is Jesus' view, not Jethro's.

Your asking the wrong person.

Jethro didn't write the words.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2JLB

Understanding the metaphor clears all confusion.

It's about bearing fruit, not holding on to one's salvation. One must be in fellowship with Jesus in order to bear fruit. Quite simple.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I think you've misunderstood. When one believes, THEY are justified. It is justification BY FAITH, not justification by bearing fruit."

What happens when they stop believing?
JLB

They continue to be justified.
They continue to HAVE eternal life.

They will be subject to God's painful discipline. 1 Cor 5:5. 11:30
They will lose eternal reward. 2 John 8

This is true because there are no verses that teach that one can lose justification, or lose eternal life, which is irrevocable anyway (Rom 11:29).

 

[chessman]

Your asking the wrong person.

Jethro didn't write the words.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

I don't have any questions about what Jesus actually said. I have questions about the anti-OSAS view of this passage that thinks being removed from the vine equates to lose of salvation. I question that view (being cut off = lose of salvation) for at least three reasons:

1. How many branches are removed from the vine on your view? In my view, every branch (the non-fruit bearing branches AND the fruit bearing branches) are removed. That's what Jesus said and I'm with Jesus' words on this passage, not against His words. Even the branches that bear fruit are pruned from the vine. Thus, I question the view that thinks saved people (illustrated by being a branch in The Vine) loses salvation when it is removed precisely because even the fruit bearing branches are pruned (among other reasons). Anti-OSAS really needs to explain these questions posed against its view that being removed equates to lose of salvation (which by the way is not stated here). It's that view that makes no sense, not Jesus' words. But you have been marked as one that does not answer hard questions like these posed against the anti-OSAS view. Which leaves your case weak. But, by all means, provide reasoned, Biblical answers to them if you have any.

2. Also, within this illustration, branches don't bear any fruit unless they are in Him. They cannot bear fruit without Him, remember (v4). So how'd they get saved to begin with if someone must produce fruit to be saved?

John 15:4 (NKJV) As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. ​

If being attached = being saved and bearing fruit = being saved then being attached = bearing fruit (if A = S and if F = S, then A = F). Simple logic and affirmed by the anti-OSAS view:

Fruitful branches are saved branches.

Thus I asked the following questions:

is every branch in Him already clean

with the obvious answer being Yes! And the reason for our being already clean clearly stated as well. And it's NOT because of our fruit bearing:

John 15:3 (NKJV) You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. ​

So:

Can you show us how much fruit a clean branch is expected to produce each year to maintain my salvation?

how long does Christ allow before you must produce fruit in order to maintain your salvation on your view? One harvest cycle?

 

[JLB]

I don't have any questions about what Jesus actually said.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Do you believe that a person who is no longer "in Christ", has eternal life?

I have questions about the anti-OSAS view of this passage that thinks being removed from the vine equates to lose of salvation.

You will find the answers to your questions from the scriptures.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who are "in Him" are saved.
Those who were never "in Him", are not saved, and will be cast into the fire and burned.
Those who are in Him, then removed from Him are no longer saved, as they are cast into the fire and burned.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"I think you've misunderstood. When one believes, THEY are justified. It is justification BY FAITH, not justification by bearing fruit."

They continue to be justified.
They continue to HAVE eternal life.

They will be subject to God's painful discipline. 1 Cor 5:5. 11:30
They will lose eternal reward. 2 John 8

This is true because there are no verses that teach that one can lose justification, or lose eternal life, which is irrevocable anyway (Rom 11:29).

If a person believes they are justified, but a person who no longer believes is still justified?


Please provide the scripture that shows us a person who no longer believes is still justified.



JLB

 

[JLB]

1. How many branches are removed from the vine on your view? In my view, every branch (the non-fruit bearing branches AND the fruit bearing branches) are removed. That's what Jesus said and I'm with Jesus' words on this passage, not against His words. Even the branches that bear fruit are pruned from the vine. Thus, I question the view that thinks saved people (illustrated by being a branch in The Vine) loses salvation when it is removed precisely because even the fruit bearing branches are pruned (among other reasons). Anti-OSAS really needs to explain these questions posed against its view that being removed equates to lose of salvation (which by the way is not stated here). It's that view that makes no sense, not Jesus' words. But you have been marked as one that does not answer hard questions like these posed against the anti-OSAS view. Which leaves your case weak. But, by all means, proved reasoned, Biblical answers to them if you have any.

2. Also, within this illustration, branches don't bear any fruit unless they are in Him. They cannot bear fruit without Him, remember (v4). So how'd they get saved to begin with if someone must produce fruit to be saved?

John 15:4 (NKJV) As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
If being attached = being saved and bearing fruit = being saved then being attached = bearing fruit (if A = S and if F = S, then A = F). Simple logic and affirmed by the anti-OSAS view:

All the "simple logic" your man made doctrine may offer, can not change the truth of these words from Jesus Christ.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Please provide the scripture, that teaches us a person who is no longer "in Christ" is still saved.



JLB

 

[JLB]

That cannot be possible, since Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 teach that everyone who believes is sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee, or promise, and this sealing is FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. How coud it be more clear than this?

Since there are no scriptures in your post, it remains unclear.

What is clear is these words from Jesus Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you've misunderstood. When one believes, THEY are justified. It is justification BY FAITH, not justification by bearing fruit.

You are the one who does not understand.
The faith that justifies, all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB), is the faith that then produces fruit.
No fruit means no underlying justification to produce that fruit.
That's why fruitless branches are cut out of the tree altogether. They simply have no life in them. They are dead. The absence of fruit proves that. But I know the Protestant church will argue endlessly that dead branches do have life in them. Pretty amazing.

Once again, I respectfully disagree. Ch 5 begins with the subject of FREEDOM.

Freedom from the effort to be justified by the law. That's what the whole subject is:

"1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--the subject of this passage, vs.4), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:1-6 NASB bold and underline mine)

The faith that justifies is the faith that will then love. But the church has been trained to not believe that. They insist that even dead (so-called) faith justifies, too. That's not what Paul, the author of the law vs. grace argument, says. The faith that justifies is the faith that loves.

No love shows there is no justifying faith in that person--they are lost. They are branches that are cut out of the tree because of that fruitlessness/faithlessness and are turned over to be burned in the fiery hell where all unbelieving/ unfruitful branches will be burned. As I pointed out, John also says unfruitful people are unsaved children of the devil with no eternal life in them (1 John 3:14-15 NASB).

Branches are cut out of the tree because of unbelief. An unbelief that can be seen and evidenced in the fact that they have no fruit. It is on that basis that they are cut and cast into the fiery hell.

 

[chessman]

Those who are "in Him" are saved.

I know. I agree. And, as I said, I know why the branches that are in Him are saved. It is because of the Word that has been spoken to them/us that they/we are saved, not because of fruit production.

Those who were never "in Him", are not saved

Okay. I'll buy that. But what of those "in Him" that are saved yet have not produced fruit yet, how'd they get in Him (saved) if producing fruit = being saved as the poster claimed, yet no branch produces any fruit without being in Him.

Those who are in Him, then removed from Him are no longer saved

Umm, so the fruit bearing branches that are pruned are no longer saved on your view?

I asked the following questions about your view which you did not answer, making the case for your view weak.

Can you show us how much fruit a clean branch is expected to produce each year to maintain my salvation?

How many branches are removed from the vine on your view? In my view, every branch (the non-fruit bearing branches AND the fruit bearing branches) are removed.

within this illustration, branches don't bear any fruit unless they are in Him. They cannot bear fruit without Him, remember (v4). So how'd they get saved to begin with if someone must produce fruit to be saved?

how long does Christ allow before you must produce fruit in order to maintain your salvation on your view? One harvest cycle?

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person believes they are justified, but a person who no longer believes is still justified?

The sentence isn't very clear, but the issue isn't whether "a person believes they are justified". The only issue is HOW one becomes justified. And that is clearly stated throughout Rom 3 and 4. Here's a sample from ch 3:
26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Please provide the scripture that shows us a person who no longer believes is still justified.
JLB

Rather, please provide any verse that shows us a justified person losing their status of justification. That is how to prove one's view. With Scripture. Since there AREN'T any such verses, my position is proved by a total LACK of Scriptural support for losing justification.

If justification can be lost there would be verses to that very effect. And there aren't any.

btw, Paul described justification as a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. And then in Rom 11:29 He wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Therefore, BOTH justification and eternal life are irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please provide the scripture, that teaches us a person who is no longer "in Christ" is still saved.JLB

The real challenge is to provide any Scripture that the sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken for any reason. One MUST deal with Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30 if they want to discuss the assumption that one can be removed from being in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"That cannot be possible, since Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 teach that everyone who believes is sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee, or promise, and this sealing is FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. How coud it be more clear than this?"

Since there are no scriptures in your post, it remains unclear.

Why do you consider Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30 to be "no scriptures"??

What is clear is these words from Jesus Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
JLB

What is clear is how people misunderstand the metaphors of Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are the one who does not understand.
The faith that justifies, all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB), is the faith that then produces fruit.

Except Rom 4:6 doesn't say that the faith will produce fruit.

Since we are commanded to produce fruit, it should be quite obvious that bearing fruit isn't guaranteed. One must be in fellowship with Christ, or "abiding in Him". This is a spiritual growth issue, not a loss of salvation issue.

No fruit means no underlying justification to produce that fruit.

Opinion noted.

No love shows there is no justifying faith in that person--they are lost.

Opinion noted. What verses support this claim?

 

[chessman]

Do you believe that a person who is no longer "in Christ", has eternal life?

I believe Eternal Life is eternal, don't you?
I'm not sure where you get the idea that every branch doesn't already have eternal life from.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Please provide the scripture, that teaches us a person who is no longer "in Christ" is still saved.

Your higlighting in red the phrase "takes away" seems to indicate you think it means, "no longer in Christ". Is that what you think?

John 1:29 (NKJV) The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
​

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the fact that the word means: to raise up, to lift up, to perfect. It seems to me to be the case that you are trying to change the word's meaning into something it does not mean.

Hebrews 11:5 (NKJV) By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Greek word for the Hebrew of what God did to Enoch in Gen 5:24.

Colossians 2:13-14 (NKJV) And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​