what does it mean to you .

[Not_Now.Soon]

He "chose us in Christ" before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before Him.

what does this mean to you .

I think in this context we have two examples. First consider Jacob and Esau. From their birth it seems God chose Jacob over Esau, but from their lives, it seems like Jacob did not deserve to be chosen for a very long time. First he stole the birthright of his older brother, by taking advantage of his hunger. Then with his mom's help, Jacob stole the blessings that his father meant to give Esau. Moving on from there Jacob was put in a position of sly mis dealings almost as if it was a competition between him and his father in law. In all of this so far, it seems God is on the side of Jacob. Blessing him with wealth and children before he finally leave his father in law. Even to the point that when his father in law was stolen from as they left, God warned the father in law to not say anything evil of Jacob. Throughout all of this God was on Jacob's side. Long before Jacob cleaned himself up and followed God more. And to that end I can relate to God's kindness on me, when I did not deserve it. Yet one aspect of our faith is saintification after our faith. That God will make us better and will clean up our hearts and our minds to follow Him. If Jacob's life can be counted as an example of God's choice and of His saintification, then a person can conclude that either in this example or possibly always, God chose Jacob (and posibably all of us that would be saved) before he was right by His standards. A possible conclusion is like choosing any of us before we believe in Jesus and are saved.

However there is a second example to consider too. I think it was Isaiah, or maybe Jeremiah, that God said before he was born God chose him as seperate from everyone else to be a messanger and a prophet for God. It is again God choosing before a person is born, but unlike salvation, this is a call for what God chose for that person to do in their life. It can be a conclusion that this is a unique call, and that this isn't how God calls all of us who come to Him. Kind of like some people say they felt called to be ministers. Or it can be the conclusion that all of us that come to God and are saved are from our birth set apart like this. I don't have enough knowledge to say which conclusion is right, but it is my belief that God chose all of us that he would save before we had the opportunity to be saved or deserve God's affection. Either way thought, it can be said that there are at least some that God chooses in this way. Including the Apstoles.

 

[ezra]

I think in this context we have two examples. First consider Jacob and Esau. From their birth it seems God chose Jacob over Esau, but from their lives, it seems like Jacob did not deserve to be chosen for a very long time. First he stole the birthright of his older brother, by taking advantage of his hunger. Then with his mom's help, Jacob stole the blessings that his father meant to give Esau. Moving on from there Jacob was put in a position of sly mis dealings almost as if it was a competition between him and his father in law. In all of this so far, it seems God is on the side of Jacob. Blessing him with wealth and children before he finally leave his father in law. Even to the point that when his father in law was stolen from as they left, God warned the father in law to not say anything evil of Jacob. Throughout all of this God was on Jacob's side. Long before Jacob cleaned himself up and followed God more. And to that end I can relate to God's kindness on me, when I did not deserve it. Yet one aspect of our faith is saintification after our faith. That God will make us better and will clean up our hearts and our minds to follow Him. If Jacob's life can be counted as an example of God's choice and of His saintification, then a person can conclude that either in this example or possibly always, God chose Jacob (and posibably all of us that would be saved) before he was right by His standards. A possible conclusion is like choosing any of us before we believe in Jesus and are saved.

However there is a second example to consider too. I think it was Isaiah, or maybe Jeremiah, that God said before he was born God chose him as seperate from everyone else to be a messanger and a prophet for God. It is again God choosing before a person is born, but unlike salvation, this is a call for what God chose for that person to do in their life. It can be a conclusion that this is a unique call, and that this isn't how God calls all of us who come to Him. Kind of like some people say they felt called to be ministers. Or it can be the conclusion that all of us that come to God and are saved are from our birth set apart like this. I don't have enough knowledge to say which conclusion is right, but it is my belief that God chose all of us that he would save before we had the opportunity to be saved or deserve God's affection. Either way thought, it can be said that there are at least some that God chooses in this way. Including the Apstoles.

i believe in free will and yes he has chose us in Him i have no doubt God gives us the faith .but in all this its not like we pick and chose sports team players. God picks some and others he just cast into hell . he does give us the opportunity

 

[Cygnus]

That's what I'm saying!
The faith God gives--the ability to know something is true that you can't see (Hebrews 11:1 NASB)--is the part that makes salvation an entirely gracious thing. Our believing what we now know by God's grace to be true, that's what we do. But obviously even our believing is cheered on, and coached, and encouraged along in us to such a degree that we can hardly boast of the fact that we chose to believe that which God graciously made known to us.

No one will ever get a good grasp on what actually makes salvation the gracious thing that it is, yet requires something from us too, until they understand the distinction between 'believing' (or trusting), and the faith that makes it possible to do that believing.

The "something from us too" would be the results of our salvation. The by-product so to speak.
How does the HS work? Each person would be different I would think. Some people may need "coaching"....

 

[Malachi]

forgetting faith is a gift from God

But not forgetting that this *gift* is given to all who hear the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The "something from us too" would be the results of our salvation. The by-product so to speak.

No, the 'believing' is how you access the grace of God in salvation. That doesn't mean God's grace was not active in the form of 'faith' (the ability to know something is true that you can't see) prior to you accessing his grace in salvation.

2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand" (Romans 5:2 NASB)

"13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 2:13 NASB)

Look at the order. Salvation comes because of believing. It is the result of believing. Just because God's grace in the form of the testimony of the Holy Spirit (aka, faith) got you to the point of either believing or not believing (1 John 5:10 NASB) doesn't mean you HAD to be saved in order to then do that believing. It simply means God's grace was also present before you got saved in order to lead you to his grace in salvation itself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you are of the elect...you will choose Jesus.

I'm of the elect BECAUSE I chose to believe, not disbelieve.
But surely, he knew who the elect--the one's who would believe--were before he even created the universe.

Those that reject Christ reject Christ because they don't have the faith to believe. They have not been given that gift.

That is not true. Christ rejectors are Christ rejectors because they rejected the Spirit of testimony (the very essence of 'faith'), not because God did not give them the faith to know the truth about Jesus and that it is indeed true.

"9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:9-10 NASB bold mine)

See? They reject the word and testimony about Jesus that the Holy Spirit spoke. Faith comes by virtue of being convicted by the voice of the Holy Spirit in your heart. That's called 'faith'. But most choose to reject faith (what they now know to be true about Jesus that the Holy Spirit spoke to them).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But not forgetting that this *gift* is given to all who hear the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

Correct.
People who reject Christ rejected the faith he gave them to even know the gospel is true in the first place.
Because of the testimony of the Holy Spirit showing people that the gospel about Christ is true, all people are without excuse. They even now become guilty of calling the Holy Spirit a liar because they rejected what the power of faith by the Holy Spirit showed them really is true.

 

[Malachi]

By default people call God a liar.

How so? The power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit are the means by which sinners are brought to the Savior, while the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, draw ALL men to Christ. The so-called *gift* of faith is given as the Gospel is preached. But many do not obey the Gospel.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:13-17)

 

[Cygnus]

How so? The power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit are the means by which sinners are brought to the Savior, while the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, draw ALL men to Christ. The so-called *gift* of faith is given as the Gospel is preached. But many do not obey the Gospel.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:13-17)

Many do not have ears to hear....

From your post you seem like faith isn't a gift....is that so?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are of the ELECT because you are chosen to believe.

That is exactly the theology I thoroughly resist.
I find that to be a completely meaningless gospel.

I'm of the elect on the basis of my faith. I do not have faith because I was picked out to have that faith from the many others who don't have faith just because God has 'elected' not to give it to them and so condemn them to the lake of fire (which completely contradicts his desire that all men come to salvation and not be lost--1 Timothy 2:4 NASB).

The only person I can think of off hand that was purposely determined ahead of time to have the Holy Spirit and be saved in accordance with this definition of 'election' you are defending here was John the Baptist. And I don't see that as proof that God picks ALL believers to be believers and purposely doesn't pick others, but instead condemns them to the fire, but rather that God had raised up a specific instrument of his doing to accomplish the mission he wanted to fulfill.

 

[Malachi]

From your post you seem like faith isn't a gift....is that so?

There is a spiritual gift of faith (one of many spiritual gifts) and then there is saving faith. Saving faith is produced through (1) the power of the Gospel unto salvation and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing the sinner. Thus saving faith is for everyone through the Gospel.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16).

From this passage it is clear that God wants EVERYONE to have saving faith and be saved. That is also why God commands all men everywhere to repent: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30).

Those who chose to not repent, not believe, not obey the Gospel, or to reject the Gospel are damned.

 

[ezra]

There is a spiritual gift of faith (one of many spiritual gifts) and then there is saving faith. Saving faith is produced through (1) the power of the Gospel unto salvation and (2) the power of the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing the sinner. Thus saving faith is for everyone through the Gospel.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16).

From this passage it is clear that God wants EVERYONE to have saving faith and be saved. Those who chose to not believe or to reject the Gospel as damned.

:amen

 

[Butch5]

the jews was prideful felt they was the only chosen ones. in Galatians he dealt with those who taught law had to be mixed with grace.


{ When Paul wrote this the Gentiles had not received an inheritance from God } then neither have we. in romans paul taught how we have been grafted in . i still disagree when this was wrote the new dissipation was in Christ died on the Cross the earnest of our salvation. in fact in eph its fixing get deep .as one commentaor said we are in the n.t Hollie of hollies take our shoes off

:amen

That's the point. The Jews had received an inheritance from God, just as the passages says. The passage simple cannot be talking about Gentiles, the context shows this clearly. Why so many Christians refuse to acknowledge what the Scripture says amazes me. There is a clear distinction drawn between the two group. Paul is in one group and the Ephesian in another. Paul writes of things that God had already done fro the Jews, not the Gentiles. And, if verse 12 he says, we who before hoped in the Christ. This is clearly the Jews.

If you're interested in reading a verse by verse break down of the passage it can be found here.

http://pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf

 

[Cygnus]

Those who chose to not repent, not believe, not obey the Gospel, or to reject the Gospel are damned.

Why would anyone even choose the Gospel? Can someone choose the gospel unless God is calling?
Everyone seems to be putting this great choice of salvation on their ability to recognize the gospel as truth.

But as John 15:16 says.......we were chosen, we didn't choose Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But as John 15:16 says.......we were chosen, we didn't choose Jesus.

That hardly means we don't have any obligation to respond in kind. Him doing the choosing simply means it's impossible for us to beat him to it. He instigates the entire process. That's all that means.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Everyone seems to be putting this great choice of salvation on their ability to recognize the gospel as truth.

You and I don't have the ability to know truth that we can not see. But God gives the gift of faith that enables one to know that what he can't see really is true (Hebrews 11:1 NASB). And it is only because God graciously does that first that we can then choose to put our trust in that which God has graciously shown us to be true.

I think it only fair that God show somebody that the gospel really is true before he holds them responsible for accepting it or not. Most people, when they are shown the gospel is true through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, choose to then reject it, in effect calling the Holy Spirit a lying evil spirit (1 John 5:10 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would anyone even choose the Gospel?

They won't....unless God first proves to them through the gift of faith (Hebrews 11:1 NASB) that it is indeed true. From there they either choose to place their trust in what they now know to be true, or they choose not to.

Perhaps this will make more sense to you if you start recognizing the difference between simply knowing something is true that you can't see (faith), and then actually placing your trust in and believing what you now know to be true. I know we use the words 'faith' and 'believing' like they are always and without exception the exact same thing, but that's not true at all. Faith is knowing something is true (Hebrews 11:1 NASB). But just knowing something is true doesn't save a flea...or a demon. But believing in what you know to be true does. See the diff?

 

[Malachi]

Why would anyone even choose the Gospel? Can someone choose the gospel unless God is calling? Everyone seems to be putting this great choice of salvation on their ability to recognize the gospel as truth.

1. God is calling all men to repent, and be saved (Acts 17:30; Mk 16:15,16)).

2. When the Gospel is preached, it is for the purpose of generating saving faith (Rom 10:17).

3. All have the ability to recognize the Gospel as truth, but all will not respond (John 3:14-21).

Take the example of the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40). He was reading the prophecy of Isaiah, and Philip may have spent possibly an hour with him, perhaps two. Philip preached Jesus, and this man not only believed but was also baptized. Let's not make things more complicated than they are.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

i believe in free will and yes he has chose us in Him i have no doubt God gives us the faith .but in all this its not like we pick and chose sports team players. God picks some and others he just cast into hell . he does give us the opportunity

I'm not sure what you mean by the sports team reference. Are you saying God doesn't pick some, or that He does pick. The wording has me confused because it sound like you've said God does this, and then the next sentence that everyone has the opportunity.

As for free will. I think God is bigger then our wills could be. Bigger then any other force as well. What I mean is that our choices, while being free and made on our own don't restrict God's power and authority in our lives. I agree that we have a free will, but I guess I look at that a little bit differently, as not having as much power as we ascribe to it. I can look up an example of God's will through prophesy on one king's family (and a punishment from God), played out through the will and free choices of the men in the story. But before I do that I would just like to point out our will power to stop sinning, or some people's will to stop an addiction and fail over and over again. Some things are bigger then us even with our free will, and fully intact ability to choose. At least that's how I see the concept of free will.

When it comes to being chosen or choosing God, I think God can choose us long before we choose Him. I also hope that people can discover God and come to Him too, but that might also be part of God's choice not ours. God choosing the prophets, the apstoles, and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob could be special examples instead of an example of how most come to God. Still I also hope that God has His hand in it too for all of us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

True.....God instigates the ENTIRE process. Of course if you're given to Christ...you won't be lost. Obligation or not.


And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Oh, I know very well that your understanding of election is one of the doctrines that have resulted from the church's misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works doctrine. OSAS being another result of that misunderstanding. I'm very aware of this.

So, God gives the faith.....and you want to tell me God gives some people a smidgen of faith...not enough to to "believe" ?

No.
What I'm telling you is what John said: Some people accept what God has shown them to be true through the gracious gift of faith, while others don't accept what God has shown them to be true through the gracious gift of faith. Read it:

"6 It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 9 ...the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe (the testimony of) God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5: NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

You can see from the passage that all people hear the same testimony of the Holy Spirit testifying to the truthfulness of Jesus and the gospel. And it says some choose to believe and accept it, keeping it in themselves, while others don't believe it and reject it in effect calling the Holy Spirit a lying spirit.

So you can see the difference is not in what is testified to each group, but rather that one group accepts it while the other does not. But your doctrine of election insists that God purposely withholds information and revelation (faith) from some so they can not believe and would, therefore, be damned according to a predetermined plan for them to be damned, but graciously gives faith to those whom he does want to believe and be saved according to a predetermined plan for them to saved. The passage above disproves that doctrine very easily.