What Does Jesus Say About A Saved Person Becoming Unsaved ?

[Hopeful 2]

So Mr. know it all where is Joshua today ?

I would answer...heaven.
The same goes for Enoch, Elijah, John the Baptist, and a few others blessed with the gift of the Holy Ghost at their deaths.
But generally, all OT men walked in the flesh and not in the Spirit.
Their religion had no way to enable a man to put off the flesh, like the NT Christians have.

 

[Hopeful 2]

My question is what did Jesus say about this most important issue of a saved, sanctified person snatching eternal death from the jaws of eternal life?
Jesus Christ after all being the only name under heaven by which we are saved, I want to hear His example/parable of this tragedy happening ?
I have not heard it before .

What would have happened to the prodigal son if he hadn't repented and come back ?
He would have remained "dead".

 

[GodsGrace]

I would answer...heaven.
The same goes for Enoch, Elijah, John the Baptist, and a few others blessed with the gift of the Holy Ghost at their deaths.
But generally, all OT men walked in the flesh and not in the Spirit.
Their religion had no way to enable a man to put off the flesh, like the NT Christians have.

I agree with your post no. 362, but the above just can't be said to be true.

What saved men in the OT?
It was faith.

What saves men in the NT?
Faith

The reason you believe most persons could not put off their flesh in t he OT is due to your belief system and the idea that you have put off that flesh because the New Covenant allows it---provides for it, I should say...

And so, once again, your belief messes up with the entire bible in general.
When you get one teachng very wrong - it has an effect on everything else.

If you're right, there are just as few going to heaven in the NC as in the OC.

No difference at all.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I would answer...heaven.
The same goes for Enoch, Elijah, John the Baptist, and a few others blessed with the gift of the Holy Ghost at their deaths.
But generally, all OT men walked in the flesh and not in the Spirit.
Their religion had no way to enable a man to put off the flesh, like the NT Christians have.

Because of his sin God would not allow Moses to cross Jordan into the Promised Land.
What about a sinner like Moses , so much more evil than yourself in his sinning ?
Could it be possible that the sinner Moses who was forbidden by God to cross over Jordan was then allowed into heaven ?

Deu 32:51-52
Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

Deu 32:52
Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I agree with your post no. 362, but the above just can't be said to be true.
What saved men in the OT?
It was faith.
What saves men in the NT?
Faith

Agreed.
But aren't we given a whole new list of things to be faithful in ?
The OT had to have faith in a coming redeemer, and in the effectiveness of the Law's atonements for sin.
The NT has to have faith in the redeemer and in His ability to keep us separate from this world.

The reason you believe most persons could not put off their flesh in t he OT is due to your belief system and the idea that you have put off that flesh because the New Covenant allows it---provides for it, I should say...

The OT's circumcision of the flesh was the presage of the NT's ability to actually cast off the old man, with his affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
The OT couldn't circumcise the heart, like we can now.

And so, once again, your belief messes up with the entire bible in general.
When you get one teachng very wrong - it has an effect on everything else.
If you're right, there are just as few going to heaven in the NC as in the OC.

Isn't that what Jesus said would happen ?
"Many are called but few..."

 

[Hopeful 2]

Because of his sin God would not allow Moses to cross Jordan into the Promised Land.

Yes.

What about a sinner like Moses , so much more evil than yourself in his sinning ?

Of course.
Not nearly as bad as my pre-conversion self, to be sure though.
Now, in Christ, all men can walk as Jesus walked.

Could it be possible that the sinner Moses who was forbidden by God to cross over Jordan was then allowed into heaven ?

Moses was denied the OT's physical, presage of heaven, that we strive for in the NT.
With the Law's atonements for sin, he did qualify to go to heaven.

Was Moses' sin before, or after, the Law was given ?

 

[Corinth77777]

What would Jesus say about a rescued person who needs to be rescued again?

Idk, is it a dog that returns to its own vomit?

 

[Corinth77777]

Agreed.
But aren't we given a whole new list of things to be faithful in ?
The OT had to have faith in a coming redeemer, and in the effectiveness of the Law's atonements for sin.
The NT has to have faith in the redeemer and in His ability to keep us separate from this world.

The OT's circumcision of the flesh was the presage of the NT's ability to actually cast off the old man, with his affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
The OT couldn't circumcise the heart, like we can now.

Isn't that what Jesus said would happen ?
"Many are called but few..."

Narrow is the way and few who find it

 

[Corinth77777]

Not too important E.
He was born again at an early age.
Became the top biblical scholar on manuscripts in the world (I think).
He stopped b elieving about 15 years ago. He's in his 50's I'd say.

Some persons stop believing because of all the suffering they see.
We do have to admit this is the number one problem that Christianity faces.

My former GP used to believe. I asked him why he stopped.
He said he saw too "many things." Medical, no doubt.

Yes. It happens.

I think we can tell ourselves that they never believed to begin with because we find it comforting and
thinking a person could stop believing has more than one meaning that we, maybe, can't accept.

Hi, i know Missed alot of the discussion.
But it would be really hard for me to see a person who has been born with life to literally deny there is a God and Christ. To stop believing then would mean he turned to something else for life, knowing that Jesus is life?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Narrow is the way and few who find it

Yep.
Even though it isn't hidden from anyone.

 

[Abby-Joy]

GodsGrace
No, but I trust the KJV more than any other version and I use the Strong's Concordance to see what words actually mean in the original language rather than trust all these various Bible versions and their many opinions of what the Word actually says.

Greek: σκανδαλίζω
Transliteration: skandalizō
Pronunciation: skan-dal-id'-zo
Definition: To scandalize; from G4625; to entrap that is trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively] or entice to sin apostasy or displeasure): - (make to) offend.
KJV Usage: offend (28x), make to offend (2x).
Occurs: 35
In verses: 28

By looking at the original language, it seems that the phrase "be offended" means to trip up or cause to stumble.

Matthew 24:10-12
[10]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The surrounding verses of scripture give a better interpretation. The love of many will grow cold due to the increase in iniquity and deception ...offenses will be more prevalent, and people will betray and hate each other.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The surrounding verses of scripture give a better interpretation. The love of many will grow cold due to the increase in iniquity and deception ...offenses will be more prevalent, and people will betray and hate each other.

Isn't that the dark time we're living in? A balkanized low trust society, social and cultural cohesion lost, everyone does what is right in their own eyes?

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace
No, but I trust the KJV more than any other version and I use the Strong's Concordance to see what words actually mean in the original language rather than trust all these various Bible versions and their many opinions of what the Word actually says.

Hi Abby-Joy
I'm not sure what you're saying NO to?
I checked back on my last post and I don't see anything I asked.

You could trust whatever version you like. I'm not one to debate on what version should be read.
My point was that different versions will use a different word here and there.

The main point being that it's not WORDS we're relying on but a complete picture that the NT presents to us.
I think you should continue to do what you're doing....you will find, however, that we won't all agree on aspects of studying.

I've used a lexicon very rarely and only in theological discussions.
I also don't care to use commentaries because you'll find one to state exactly what you want it to.

I DO tend to trust using different versions instead.
Have you ever tried the Young's Literal Translation?
It translates the Greek literally...not good for reading, but you might like it.

Greek: σκανδαλίζω
Transliteration: skandalizō
Pronunciation: skan-dal-id'-zo
Definition: To scandalize; from G4625; to entrap that is trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively] or entice to sin apostasy or displeasure): - (make to) offend.
KJV Usage: offend (28x), make to offend (2x).
Occurs: 35
In verses: 28

If you notice, the list of translations for Matthew 24:10 that I had posted all used a different word - other than the KJV OFFENDED.

Now look at what you posted above.....
It specifically states what the KJV used which is TO OFFEND.

But look at how Strong's defines the original Greek word:
TRIP UP
STUMBLE
ENTICE TO SIN
APOSTACY
DISPLEASURE

The above words are exactly what a person would have to do for forfeit their salvation.
NOT one time, but repeatedly because that would mean they no longer care about their salvation.
Some persons do turn away from their salvation.

Here I'll give you another verse -- see what you come up with: FALLING AWAY FROM FAITH -

Revelation 2:4-5
'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent.

If a person falls away, he must repent. This means he has become lost again.

James 5:19
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

If someone strays from the truth...he must be turned back.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

It is possible to fal away from the One True God.

By looking at the original language, it seems that the phrase "be offended" means to trip up or cause to stumble.

Matthew 24:10-12
[10]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The surrounding verses of scripture give a better interpretation. The love of many will grow cold due to the increase in iniquity and deception ...offenses will be more prevalent, and people will betray and hate each other.

Once that love has grown cold....
are they still in a saved condition with God?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi, i know Missed alot of the discussion.
But it would be really hard for me to see a person who has been born with life to literally deny there is a God and Christ. To stop believing then would mean he turned to something else for life, knowing that Jesus is life?

I'm with you Corinth.
But I'm going by what the NT teaches.

And the reason I believe this is a very important topic is because I've heard some say that they could sin and still be saved. This is impossible because the Holy Spirit will not spend His time with person that live a life of sin.
We are a temple and should treat ourselves as such.

Because a person made some kind of decision at some point in their life does not mean that they'll keep that decision till the end of their life.

We must endure till the end.....

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Hebrews 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
If what you have a difficult time accepting is correct...then what would the above verses mean?

Jesus said we will be judged by our good deeds.
John 5:28-29
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

So if OSAS is correct, and all the baggage that goes with it, how could Jesus' words above be true?

There are different reasons why persons abandon God.
Maybe a sickness, a death, a defective baby, who knows, we could go on forever.
Maybe they're mad at God...maybe they don't trust Him anymore.

But God will never abandon us...
only the other way around.