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What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

Historically, predestination does not exist as a doctrine until Calvin. It is wholly a man made theory imposed upon scripture by misinterpreting prooftexts.

Historically, Augustine was the forerunner of John Calvin's teaching on predestination. Calvin took what Augustine wrote and turned it into a dark hybrid of Augustine's explanation of Grace.

Augustine: On the Predestination of the Saints

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm

Written approx 390 AD.
 
Historically, Augustine was the forerunner of John Calvin's teaching on predestination. Calvin took what Augustine wrote and turned it into a dark hybrid of Augustine's explanation of Grace.

Augustine: On the Predestination of the Saints

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm

Written approx 390 AD.

You are correct in that the idea comes from Augustine. But for Augustine it was only an idea, a theory. It was never a doctrine or a belief held by the Church. The notion lay dormant for 1000 years before Calvin fleshed it out into his systematic theology and doctrine. At that, it still after 500 years has not actually gelled into a cohesive theory as it is continually being redefined, further enhanced, changed, further nuanced. Hardly the Gospel of Christ that was given in the beginning, and has remained constant for 2000 years.
 
mit

I believe it simple means that God has made a "path" a "way" for all who believe
to be conformed to the "Image Of His Son" by way of the truth!

Thats what you believe but that is not what Rom 8:29 says ! You need a scripture that says something to the effect, " That God has made a path, a way, for all who believe, to be conformed to the image of His Son, by way of Truth. Because Rom 8:29 does not say that.
 
mit



Thats what you believe but that is not what Rom 8:29 says ! You need a scripture that says something to the effect, " That God has made a path, a way, for all who believe, to be conformed to the image of His Son, by way of Truth. Because Rom 8:29 does not say that.



Rom 8:29






For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Now it seems clear that in (2Cor3) Paul by the Holy Spirit goes on to explain how the "conforming to His Image" is to come about by and for the believer.
2Co 3:3



Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


2Co 3:5



Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6



Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


2Co 3:9



For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2Co 3:17



Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18



But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I have more scriptures, but want to see if you have any questions? :-)





 
You are correct in that the idea comes from Augustine. But for Augustine it was only an idea, a theory. It was never a doctrine or a belief held by the Church. The notion lay dormant for 1000 years before Calvin fleshed it out into his systematic theology and doctrine. At that, it still after 500 years has not actually gelled into a cohesive theory as it is continually being redefined, further enhanced, changed, further nuanced. Hardly the Gospel of Christ that was given in the beginning, and has remained constant for 2000 years.

Yes, Calvin was financed to setup a rival religion and political institution to compete against the Catholic Church. Many of his doctrines were formed for this purpose and agenda. That was actually a very dark period of church history; probably comparable to Jezebel and Ahab. It is ironic that so many are blinded to the history of beliefs and doctrines, or they simply don't care. Religion is a game for most people.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Now it seems clear that in (2Cor3) Paul by
the Holy Spirit goes on to explain how the "conforming to His Image" is to come
about by and for the believer.
2Co
3:3

Rom 8:29 says the them He foreknew were Predestinated by God to be conformed to the Image of His Son !

Its talking about people, individuals who were predestinated, nothing about a pathway being predestinated. So you have still failed to provide the scripture that says that God predestinated a pathway. That is not what Rom 8:29 says !

In fact, the same people were predestinated to be Justified by Faith. The Predestination is why they believe, they had no choice but to believe since God predetermined it !
 
The Predestination is why they believe, they had no choice but to believe since God predetermined it !

What was foreknown though? It cannot have been predestination, for predestination was a consequence of foreknowledge, not the cause of foreknowledge. What was foreknown?
No one has answered that.
 
What was foreknown though? It cannot have been predestination, for predestination was a consequence of foreknowledge, not the cause of foreknowledge. What was foreknown?
No one has answered that.


Sola Doctrina
 
Its talking about people, individuals who were predestinated, nothing about a pathway being predestinated. So you have still failed to provide the scripture that says that God predestinated a pathway. That is not what Rom 8:29 says !

Romans 8:29 is not talking about "individual people" who were predestined, he is talking about a "class" of people "Christians".

Christianity was "predestined" not those who would be "Christians".
 
Rom 8:29 says the them He foreknew were Predestinated by God to be conformed to the Image of His Son !

Its talking about people, individuals who were predestinated, nothing about a pathway being predestinated. So you have still failed to provide the scripture that says that God predestinated a pathway. That is not what Rom 8:29 says !

In fact, the same people were predestinated to be Justified by Faith. The Predestination is why they believe, they had no choice but to believe since God predetermined it !

Yea? He Knew them before they ever was and made a way for them.
You ever heard of the term" before the foundations of the world"?
This might help you to put it all together?:praying

Joh 17:22



And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23



I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24






Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

You will be amazed at how simple the truth really is!:thumbsup
 
If one was to realize that we all, were created at the same time,this subject would be easy to understand.........

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Had satan never rebelled,we would never have been made flesh...........
 
If one was to realize that we all, were created at the same time,this subject would be easy to understand.........

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Had satan never rebelled,we would never have been made flesh...........

At least you laid out what you believe:thumbsup
I agree with some but not all, "conformed to His Image" is the biblical responsibility we have HERE in this "age" or else the scripture We are CHANGED from glory to glory as "WE BEHOLD HIM" and others are not true?

Eph 4:12

for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13

till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14

that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

Eph 4:15

but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;

Also it seems odd to think the term "before the foundations of the world" could mean anything other than "before God created the world" So if you have more scripture concerning your view on that, I would like to hear it and consider your point :-)
 
It's amazing what people come up with in order to avoid the plain truth of scripture.. Which is that every last one of us in the first Adam are under condemnation..

Let's see, we'll come up with a prior earth age where we all existed...

Seriously, where does this nonsense come from ?
 
It's amazing what people come up with in order to avoid the plain truth of scripture.. Which is that every last one of us in the first Adam are under condemnation..

Let's see, we'll come up with a prior earth age where we all existed...

Seriously, where does this nonsense come from ?
I agree but God has made a sure way of overcoming this "flesh" issue.




Rom 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

I doubt many have a clue what it means to "walk by the Spirit" ? Most likely thats why all the nonsense grows and the "True way is evil spoken of":chin


 
I agree with you there....All scripture is based on the inspiration of God...the NT came to fulfill the OT.

In the KJV Romans 8 verse 30 states they were foreordained.

30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: —ordained to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. See how using a different bible can appear to change an entire meaning? It does not change the meaning, we can interpret it differently.

?? I didn't know there was different versions of the KJV, other than the NKJV and the first says "predestinate" and the second says "predestined".
 
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