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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study What does the Bible say about 666?
- Thread starter JohnD
- Start date
Thank you for your respectful reply...
digging
Member
I feel that the messages in Revelation have great spiritual meanings that we need to work hard to understand and perceive how they apply.
Exodus 20:25 NAS
'If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
1 Peter 2:5 NAS
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
IF we become 'stones' carved by human hands this is not what God is wanting, we needed to be free from the works/indoctrinating of men.
Matt 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am ?"16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him,"Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church ; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
I see the beast 'mark' as the molding and carving of our hearts and minds to make men like stones placed in a pagan temple. However true Christians are to be living stones, part of the spiritual body of believers whom have their Fathers name, and the 'Lambs' name (not a beast name) on them and become the New City.
Digging
Exodus 20:25 NAS
'If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
1 Peter 2:5 NAS
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
IF we become 'stones' carved by human hands this is not what God is wanting, we needed to be free from the works/indoctrinating of men.
Matt 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am ?"16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him,"Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church ; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
I see the beast 'mark' as the molding and carving of our hearts and minds to make men like stones placed in a pagan temple. However true Christians are to be living stones, part of the spiritual body of believers whom have their Fathers name, and the 'Lambs' name (not a beast name) on them and become the New City.
Digging
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The fact that the mark is either on the right hand or the forehead is IMHO too specific to be a "spiritual mark." It will be either a tattoo or a brand (like the Jaffa in Stargate) or the Nazi in Raiders of the lost ark...
Remember, God gave Cain a mark so that whoever found him would not kill him. For at the time the human race was so small and interrelated that any of them could have killed him to avenge the familial blood of Able.
I personally believe this is where the Star of David / Seal of Solomon came from. And in time the symbol gained a fol;lowing of those who believed it had some sort of mystical powers (much like the snake on a pole did in later times when people began worshiping the snake on the pole {nehushtan} so Hoshea the king destroyed it to do what was right).
the pagan / occult symbol (before Solomon adopted it).
I personally believe this is where the Star of David / Seal of Solomon came from. And in time the symbol gained a fol;lowing of those who believed it had some sort of mystical powers (much like the snake on a pole did in later times when people began worshiping the snake on the pole {nehushtan} so Hoshea the king destroyed it to do what was right).
Admittedly, these things (at first blush) sound antisemitic as heck. They are not. It is simply that the battle of good versus evil is taking place in house (in the genetic vehicle God chose to conduct all these things). Until I understood this it grieved me no end. The Lord reminded me:
Romans 9:6 (NKJV)
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Romans 9:6 (NKJV)
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Okay, okay... {smile}
Daniel 9:24-27 (NKJV)
24 “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
John 5:39-45 (NKJV)
39 “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
41 “I do not receive honor from men.
42 “But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
44 “How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?
45 “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.
The "if" in verse 43 can be translated (and IMHO ought to be translated) "though"
"though another comes in his own name..."
Again, these are along the lines of...
Romans 8:28 (NKJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
God is the great orchestrator of all things good and bad.
Isaiah 45:5-7 (NKJV)
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other;
7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’
Isaiah 46:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’
Ezekiel 36:16-22 (NKJV)
16 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds; to Me their way was like the uncleanness of a woman in her customary impurity.
18 “Therefore I poured out My fury on them for the blood they had shed on the land, and for their idols with which they had defiled it.
19 “So I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the countries; I judged them according to their ways and their deeds.
20 “When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they have gone out of His land.’
21 “But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.
Romans 8:28 (NKJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
God is the great orchestrator of all things good and bad.
Isaiah 45:5-7 (NKJV)
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other;
7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’
Isaiah 46:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’
Ezekiel 36:16-22 (NKJV)
16 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds; to Me their way was like the uncleanness of a woman in her customary impurity.
18 “Therefore I poured out My fury on them for the blood they had shed on the land, and for their idols with which they had defiled it.
19 “So I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the countries; I judged them according to their ways and their deeds.
20 “When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they have gone out of His land.’
21 “But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.
The purpose of the Armageddon campaign (the pinnacle of the Great Tribulation period) is to get those left in Israel to cry out to Jesus as a whole since nothing else they have tried has worked and a a last resort as the world's armies descend upon them they cry out Hosanna! (hosha nah = save now) Yehoshua HaMoshiakh (Jesus the Christ / Messiah) and he will come and the Mount of Olives will split (Zechariah 14:4).
And about the PRE / MID / POST TRIB positions... all three camps are correct!
They just misunderstand the 70th Week is NOT one 7-year tribulation but two three-and-a-half-year tribulations...
The Great Tribulation (the second tribulation) is the one focused on the most since no one wants to major in the tribulation of one's self or the people of one's self.
Revelation 12:17 (NKJV)
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:5-10 (NKJV)
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
One of the faults I expose debating Preterists is the anti-prophetic nature that is Preterism (relegating future events to past fulfillment thus rendering the saints without any warnings about events yet to come).
But even non-heretical teachers in the faith avoid such unpleasant topics as the tribulation of the saints (also rending the saints without any warnings about events yet to come just as much as the Preterists).
They just misunderstand the 70th Week is NOT one 7-year tribulation but two three-and-a-half-year tribulations...
The Great Tribulation (the second tribulation) is the one focused on the most since no one wants to major in the tribulation of one's self or the people of one's self.
Revelation 12:17 (NKJV)
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:5-10 (NKJV)
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
One of the faults I expose debating Preterists is the anti-prophetic nature that is Preterism (relegating future events to past fulfillment thus rendering the saints without any warnings about events yet to come).
But even non-heretical teachers in the faith avoid such unpleasant topics as the tribulation of the saints (also rending the saints without any warnings about events yet to come just as much as the Preterists).
digging
Member
I was taught through organized religion to believe almost everything in Revelation was still future. I no longer have that view, through personal consideration I now see the book as speaking of two main time periods. The events that occurred during the presence of Jesus 2000 years ago and the events that will occur near and when he returns.
Rev 13:3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed...
Rev 13:14 an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword;
Who could have the ability to wound the head like this but Jesus Christ himself?
Revelation 1:16 NAS
In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword
Rev 2:12 The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this
Thus it can be argued that this near fatal blow was given in the past when Christ was here the first time, and he will return and finish this work he started very soon.
IF that time line could be correct then this vs
Rev 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him
Might be explaining the conquest of the spiritually free early Church, which was destroyed and replaced with an institutionally structured Church empowered by the Empire of Rome. This structure would then be the 'image of the beast' which has been around for 1000's of years and thus also the 'mark' and we don't see people walking around with such a literal thing. The literal things ended with the Jewish arrangement now we have what Jesus said.
John 4:24 NAS
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Digging
Rev 13:3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed...
Rev 13:14 an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword;
Who could have the ability to wound the head like this but Jesus Christ himself?
Revelation 1:16 NAS
In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword
Rev 2:12 The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this
Thus it can be argued that this near fatal blow was given in the past when Christ was here the first time, and he will return and finish this work he started very soon.
IF that time line could be correct then this vs
Rev 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him
Might be explaining the conquest of the spiritually free early Church, which was destroyed and replaced with an institutionally structured Church empowered by the Empire of Rome. This structure would then be the 'image of the beast' which has been around for 1000's of years and thus also the 'mark' and we don't see people walking around with such a literal thing. The literal things ended with the Jewish arrangement now we have what Jesus said.
John 4:24 NAS
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Digging
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Deborah13
Member
I don't see that John was being prophetic in verse 43, even if 'if' is changed to 'though'.
What I see is that Jesus is talking to the Jews and in this verse He is referring to the man that they do trust.
45 “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Is a city left desolate by God a holy city?
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Is a city left desolate by God a holy city?
Holy in that it is called apart, distinguished, different. Yes.
Strong's Hebrew #6944 ...whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6Moreover he ...
6944qodesh { ko’-desh}
from 6942; TWOT - 1990a; n m
AV - holy 262, sanctuary 68, (holy, hallowed,...) things 52, most 44, holiness 30, dedicated 5, hallowed 3, consecrated 1, misc 3; 468
GK - 7731 { קֹדֶשׁ }
1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness
1a) apartness, sacredness, holiness
1a1) of God
1a2) of places
1a3) of things
1b) set-apartness, separateness
Galatians 4:21-31 (NIV)
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.
25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
27 For it is written: “Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
30 But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Um, I can see the view that Jesus was simply using rabbinical ironic contrast... IF that was all that there was on the subject in the Bible. Ezekiel 28 / Isaiah 14 / A large part of Daniel refers to the abomination of desolation, Paul mentions him in 2 Thessalonians and so on...
For the Jews to accept this fellow as a Messiah he must be Jewish.
Daniel 11:37 (KJV)
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Jesus said desolate.
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
G2048
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. agree
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
OOPS heading off topic :blush
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Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
G2048
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. agree
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
OOPS heading off topic :blush
2
digging
Member
I don't think is that off topic Reba,
We're talking about the 'mark'
Revelation 2:17 NAS
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
Revelation 3:12 NAS
'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore ; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Revelation 21:2 NAS
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
I believe we all can clearly see that this writing/marking is totally a spiritual act upon the hearts of spiritual living stones. So this can help us reason that the mark of the beast is also a spiritual mark that points to where the heart and mind of that person is placed and is part of.
Digging
We're talking about the 'mark'
Revelation 2:17 NAS
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
Revelation 3:12 NAS
'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore ; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
Revelation 21:2 NAS
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
I believe we all can clearly see that this writing/marking is totally a spiritual act upon the hearts of spiritual living stones. So this can help us reason that the mark of the beast is also a spiritual mark that points to where the heart and mind of that person is placed and is part of.
Digging
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