What does the term "flesh" mean?

[George Muller]

and was obedient unto death which obedience never is a willing choice otherwise it's not obedience.

Yes no one can obey unless they don't want to obey? What does this mean? Jesus obeyed the Fathers Will, and suffered what was hard, because He loved the Father and us. He rebuked Peter, that he would even suggest that He should not suffer and die for us. I think you are far from the truth of what was in the heart of the Lord. For he always sought to please the Father and that was always His desire, even in the middle of His testing He desired to obey.

 

[Deborah13]

Have you been on these forums so long you have lost the ability to have an honest conversation Deb? Read my post in which I spoke of the Lords temptation and stop trying to play these ungodly word games.

You can try your best to insult me George, it won't work.
Just answer the question. Was Jesus REALLY TEMPTED by satan? Did Jesus, as the second Adam, REALLY overcome anything? What did He overcome and how?

I have already answered that, and have received no honest response to the points that I made. Now I am either to believe that you did not see the post and are not willing to look, or else you are just playing games with words? Either way it not the conduct of one who seeks a honest discussion with a fellow Christian believer in the discussion of Gods Word. It is a (much used) tactic of those who come on these forums and seek to bring confusion and hinder the truth, when their doctrines of error are in danger of being exposed. Now if you desire an honest conversation, lets be honest. If your desire to double talk and act as if I have made such ignorant statements as to suggest the Lord was not tempted, then I will treat you as I do all those who in their pride, refuse to have an honest debate of the truth. I am humble to the humble and I am a unmoving rock to those who are in the error of pride. You decide what sort of conversation we will have on this issue?

This is what I got from you George, I quote you "His flesh was sinless, it not the same flesh as fallen man has received from Adam. Why do you think God had to bypass the seed of man and impregnate Mary, by the Holy Spirit? That proves the point! He did not have the flesh of Adams fall."

My point, was Jesus REALLY TEMPTED. GOD can NOT be TEMPTED by evil (satan).
Yes, Jesus was the seed of God, through the Holy Spirit. 100% God.
So we know Jesus WAS tempted by evil (satan) how could this be if He were ONLY 100% God? Please explain this.

 

[Brother Mike]

What? When was Jesus not perfect, where is your charge sin?

I think you are far from the truth of what was in the heart of the Lord. For he always sought to please the Father and that was always His desire, even in the middle of His testing He desired to obey.

George, I already posted that you would not understand it. Since I did warn you ahead of time, why did you post thinking that you could understand? I was not lying to you. I never said anything you just mentioned concerning my post.

amazing.

There are just those things you type, knowing ahead that it will be misunderstood. Oh well, the wife needs something and no time to explain... sigh...

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

This is what I got from you George, I quote you "His flesh was sinless, it not the same flesh as fallen man has received from Adam. Why do you think God had to bypass the seed of man and impregnate Mary, by the Holy Spirit? That proves the point! He did not have the flesh of Adams fall."

Here George, maybe this quote from Matthew Henry will clear this up. Jesus, as a man, had a human nature but He had no sin.

Genesis 3:15 KJV
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

" He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature; he was sent forth, made of a woman (Gal. 4:4), that this promise might be fulfilled."
" But the seed of the woman was made sin and a curse for us, so saving us from both. (2.) His sufferings and death, pointed at in Satan’s bruising his heel, that is, his human nature. Satan tempted Christ in the wilderness, to draw him into sin; and some think it was Satan that terrified Christ in his agony, to drive him to despair."

Jesus had a human nature, a nature that did not have any sin. But in His human nature as a man (the second Adam) He overcame. In His life, in His death, in His resurrection. He became the "Firstfruit" of many brothers. "Your will Father, not Mine". He walked in the Spirit (in His God nature) not in the flesh (His human nature).

 

[farouk]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I love Matthew Henry! he is a good source of wholesome quotes!

Blessings.

 

[George Muller]

Have you been on these forums so long you have lost the ability to have an honest conversation Deb? Read my post in which I spoke of the Lords temptation and stop trying to play these ungodly word games.

You can try your best to insult me George, it won't work.
Just answer the question. Was Jesus REALLY TEMPTED by satan? Did Jesus, as the second Adam, REALLY overcome anything? What did He overcome and how?

I have already answered that, and have received no honest response to the points that I made. Now I am either to believe that you did not see the post and are not willing to look, or else you are just playing games with words? Either way it not the conduct of one who seeks a honest discussion with a fellow Christian believer in the discussion of Gods Word. It is a (much used) tactic of those who come on these forums and seek to bring confusion and hinder the truth, when their doctrines of error are in danger of being exposed. Now if you desire an honest conversation, lets be honest. If your desire to double talk and act as if I have made such ignorant statements as to suggest the Lord was not tempted, then I will treat you as I do all those who in their pride, refuse to have an honest debate of the truth. I am humble to the humble and I am a unmoving rock to those who are in the error of pride. You decide what sort of conversation we will have on this issue?

This is what I got from you George, I quote you "His flesh was sinless, it not the same flesh as fallen man has received from Adam. Why do you think God had to bypass the seed of man and impregnate Mary, by the Holy Spirit? That proves the point! He did not have the flesh of Adams fall."

My point, was Jesus REALLY TEMPTED. GOD can NOT be TEMPTED by evil (satan).
Yes, Jesus was the seed of God, through the Holy Spirit. 100% God.
So we know Jesus WAS tempted by evil (satan) how could this be if He were ONLY 100% God? Please explain this.

Well again Deb I gave a response to this exact point, have you looked to find it? And again I invite you to explain what you mean by 100% He was a man, but not a man as one subject to the sin in the flesh. So 100% sinless, where man in the flesh is 100% sinful. Very big difference!

 

[George Muller]

This is what I got from you George, I quote you "His flesh was sinless, it not the same flesh as fallen man has received from Adam. Why do you think God had to bypass the seed of man and impregnate Mary, by the Holy Spirit? That proves the point! He did not have the flesh of Adams fall."

Here George, maybe this quote from Matthew Henry will clear this up. Jesus, as a man, had a human nature but He had no sin.

Genesis 3:15 KJV
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

" He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature; he was sent forth, made of a woman (Gal. 4:4), that this promise might be fulfilled."
" But the seed of the woman was made sin and a curse for us, so saving us from both. (2.) His sufferings and death, pointed at in Satan’s bruising his heel, that is, his human nature. Satan tempted Christ in the wilderness, to draw him into sin; and some think it was Satan that terrified Christ in his agony, to drive him to despair."

Jesus had a human nature, a nature that did not have any sin. But in His human nature as a man (the second Adam) He overcame. In His life, in His death, in His resurrection. He became the "Firstfruit" of many brothers. "Your will Father, not Mine". He walked in the Spirit (in His God nature) not in the flesh (His human nature).

Well I have tried to make this point to you over and over, it don't take Matthew Henry to resolve the issue, only you seemed to lack understanding. For others tried to make the same point to you also, but you seemed to miss the whole point altogether?

 

[George Muller]

What? When was Jesus not perfect, where is your charge sin?

I think you are far from the truth of what was in the heart of the Lord. For he always sought to please the Father and that was always His desire, even in the middle of His testing He desired to obey.

George, I already posted that you would not understand it. Since I did warn you ahead of time, why did you post thinking that you could understand? I was not lying to you. I never said anything you just mentioned concerning my post.

amazing.

There are just those things you type, knowing ahead that it will be misunderstood. Oh well, the wife needs something and no time to explain... sigh...

Mike.

I quoted "your" words! I would back away from such error too, but hopefully I would do it in a more humble and Christian way.

 

[Deborah13]

Part of the difficulty is that some modern translations have chosed to render SARX (King James: flesh) as 'sinful nature'. The problem with this is that the Lord Jesus' flesh is mentioned, but it's not possible to ascribe a sinful nature to Him, so it can't be rendered thus in such instances. Also, Romans 8 is hard to translate if SARX is rendered 'sinful nature'. Blessings.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Oh but Jesus was born with the nature of man, we all agree that He was 100% man and 100% God. Because He was born with the nature of man, He could be tempted. God cannot be tempted, so scripture says. This is the very reason that He could be a sacrifice for our sin. Because He overcame the nature of man by the nature of God. He walked in the Spirit not in the flesh.
The problem is this idea that when man is born he is sinful because of Adam's sin. No he is born with the nature of Adam. With the capability to sin and he will for sure. But Jesus came with that nature of Adam and never sinned.
This is the lesson of walking in the Spirit of God and not the 'flesh' the nature of man.
We grow from faith to faith and glory to glory, as we are transformed into the image of the Son.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I think it's good to remember that there was nothing in the Lord Jesus to respond to sin, to cause Him to have a tendency to sin. He said in John 14.30: 'The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me'.

He was the perfect, sinless sacrifice; as the last Adam he did not inherit a sinful nature.

farouk, I never said He had a sinful nature. I said He had a human nature, His nature was human but undefiled (without sin). That does not change the fact that He as a man, with a human nature, He overcame satan by the Word of God and His Godly nature. He ALWAYS walked in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

 

[George Muller]

George, I already posted that you would not understand it. Since I did warn you ahead of time,

So then, all we need to do is post "im about to post something that others wont understand" and then we are free to make some charge against Christ Himself as in some way He was a sinful man? No your right, I will never understand or accept that sort of error.

 

[Deborah13]

This is what I got from you George, I quote you "His flesh was sinless, it not the same flesh as fallen man has received from Adam. Why do you think God had to bypass the seed of man and impregnate Mary, by the Holy Spirit? That proves the point! He did not have the flesh of Adams fall."

Here George, maybe this quote from Matthew Henry will clear this up. Jesus, as a man, had a human nature but He had no sin.

Genesis 3:15 KJV
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

" He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature; he was sent forth, made of a woman (Gal. 4:4), that this promise might be fulfilled."
" But the seed of the woman was made sin and a curse for us, so saving us from both. (2.) His sufferings and death, pointed at in Satan’s bruising his heel, that is, his human nature. Satan tempted Christ in the wilderness, to draw him into sin; and some think it was Satan that terrified Christ in his agony, to drive him to despair."

Jesus had a human nature, a nature that did not have any sin. But in His human nature as a man (the second Adam) He overcame. In His life, in His death, in His resurrection. He became the "Firstfruit" of many brothers. "Your will Father, not Mine". He walked in the Spirit (in His God nature) not in the flesh (His human nature).

Well I have tried to make this point to you over and over, it don't take Matthew Henry to resolve the issue, only you seemed to lack understanding. For others tried to make the same point to you also, but you seemed to miss the whole point altogether?

NO George, I NEVER said Jesus was sinful in anyway. I only said He had a human nature. YOU denied He had a human nature. I said that He overcame sin, as a man with a human nature, by the power of the WORD of GOD and GOD's Nature in HIm.

Show me where I ever said that there was anything sinful in Jesus.

 

[George Muller]

Part of the difficulty is that some modern translations have chosed to render SARX (King James: flesh) as 'sinful nature'. The problem with this is that the Lord Jesus' flesh is mentioned, but it's not possible to ascribe a sinful nature to Him, so it can't be rendered thus in such instances. Also, Romans 8 is hard to translate if SARX is rendered 'sinful nature'. Blessings.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Oh but Jesus was born with the nature of man, we all agree that He was 100% man and 100% God. Because He was born with the nature of man, He could be tempted. God cannot be tempted, so scripture says. This is the very reason that He could be a sacrifice for our sin. Because He overcame the nature of man by the nature of God. He walked in the Spirit not in the flesh.
The problem is this idea that when man is born he is sinful because of Adam's sin. No he is born with the nature of Adam. With the capability to sin and he will for sure. But Jesus came with that nature of Adam and never sinned.
This is the lesson of walking in the Spirit of God and not the 'flesh' the nature of man.
We grow from faith to faith and glory to glory, as we are transformed into the image of the Son.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I think it's good to remember that there was nothing in the Lord Jesus to respond to sin, to cause Him to have a tendency to sin. He said in John 14.30: 'The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me'.

He was the perfect, sinless sacrifice; as the last Adam he did not inherit a sinful nature.

farouk, I never said He had a sinful nature. I said He had a human nature, His nature was human but undefiled (without sin). That does not change the fact that He as a man, with a human nature, He overcame satan by the Word of God and His Godly nature. He ALWAYS walked in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

It says He came in the "likeness" of sinful flesh, but without the sin. Now I don't know why this is so hard to understand for some? Man in the flesh is 100% sinful. Christ was 100% without sin. His faith was tested, faith is not in the flesh. If we trust in the flesh, we are not in faith. This is why the law is not of faith. Which is another discussion that is very important to this issue.

 

[George Muller]

This is what I got from you George, I quote you "His flesh was sinless, it not the same flesh as fallen man has received from Adam. Why do you think God had to bypass the seed of man and impregnate Mary, by the Holy Spirit? That proves the point! He did not have the flesh of Adams fall."

Here George, maybe this quote from Matthew Henry will clear this up. Jesus, as a man, had a human nature but He had no sin.

Genesis 3:15 KJV
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

" He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature; he was sent forth, made of a woman (Gal. 4:4), that this promise might be fulfilled."
" But the seed of the woman was made sin and a curse for us, so saving us from both. (2.) His sufferings and death, pointed at in Satan’s bruising his heel, that is, his human nature. Satan tempted Christ in the wilderness, to draw him into sin; and some think it was Satan that terrified Christ in his agony, to drive him to despair."

Jesus had a human nature, a nature that did not have any sin. But in His human nature as a man (the second Adam) He overcame. In His life, in His death, in His resurrection. He became the "Firstfruit" of many brothers. "Your will Father, not Mine". He walked in the Spirit (in His God nature) not in the flesh (His human nature).

Well I have tried to make this point to you over and over, it don't take Matthew Henry to resolve the issue, only you seemed to lack understanding. For others tried to make the same point to you also, but you seemed to miss the whole point altogether?

NO George, I NEVER said Jesus was sinful in anyway. I only said He had a human nature. YOU denied He had a human nature. I said that He overcame sin, as a man with a human nature, by the power of the WORD of GOD and GOD's Nature in HIm.

Show me where I ever said that there was anything sinful in Jesus.

'Human nature" as it is in the flesh is sinful. I denied He had the sin that dwells in the flesh and nature of all other men.

 

[George Muller]

He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature;

I agree with this statement

 

[Deborah13]

His faith was tested, faith is not in the flesh.

Jesus, with only a 100% God nature, and His faith was tested??? No one tests GOD's faith. Now satan was testing GOD's faith??

If Jesus faith was tested as you say, then it could of only been His faith as a man, with the human nature of man.

 

[Deborah13]

He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature;

I agree with this statement

What about the rest of it, that He had a human nature, do you disagree with Matthew Henry in this point?

 

[farouk]

I think what theologians call the 'hypostatic union', which is the wondrous union of the divine and human natures in the Person of Christ, we can simply acknowledge it as an established fact. I don't think it would help to start to say, for example: 'As God He did this and that, but as man he did the other, etc.'

 

[Deborah13]

Well I have tried to make this point to you over and over, it don't take Matthew Henry to resolve the issue, only you seemed to lack understanding. For others tried to make the same point to you also, but you seemed to miss the whole point altogether?

NO George, I NEVER said Jesus was sinful in anyway. I only said He had a human nature. YOU denied He had a human nature. I said that He overcame sin, as a man with a human nature, by the power of the WORD of GOD and GOD's Nature in HIm.

Show me where I ever said that there was anything sinful in Jesus.

'Human nature" as it is in the flesh is sinful. I denied He had the sin that dwells in the flesh and nature of all other men.

So then do you believe that God created the first Adam with a sinful nature? Because when God created him, He said His work (creation) was 'good'.

 

[George Muller]

Well I have tried to make this point to you over and over, it don't take Matthew Henry to resolve the issue, only you seemed to lack understanding. For others tried to make the same point to you also, but you seemed to miss the whole point altogether?

NO George, I NEVER said Jesus was sinful in anyway. I only said He had a human nature. YOU denied He had a human nature. I said that He overcame sin, as a man with a human nature, by the power of the WORD of GOD and GOD's Nature in HIm.

Show me where I ever said that there was anything sinful in Jesus.

'Human nature" as it is in the flesh is sinful. I denied He had the sin that dwells in the flesh and nature of all other men.

So then do you believe that God created the first Adam with a sinful nature? Because when God created him, He said His work (creation) was 'good'.

Gee Deb have you ever heard of "the fall" and the tree of knowledge? Are you really trying to have an honest discussion? And act as if you don't know this most basic of biblical truths?

 

[George Muller]

He was likewise to be the seed of a woman only, of a virgin, that he might not be tainted with the corruption of our nature;

I agree with this statement

What about the rest of it, that He had a human nature, do you disagree with Matthew Henry in this point?

First I don't think the term "human nature" is accurate, His nature was divine but seeing he made clear, that he was not trying to suggest that the Lord had the corruption of our nature, I can accept it to the degree that it helps us to understand his suffering with us, But to make a blanket statement that would give the thought in any way that the The Lord was a sinner in any way, in nature or action, is just the greatest of errors and must be rejected in clear terms.