What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

The faith that justifies is the faith that loves: "6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love. " (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

In other words, love is your faith in Christ with legs on it at work in the world. And when we do that--that is, show the faith that justifies through our love--we are fulfilling, not abolishing, the law of Moses:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

"8 he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8,10 NASB)

Let's try it again -

Please share the scripture, where Paul says faith in Christ does not abolish the law.


I see where Love fulfills the law and the prophets.

On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:40

I see where love fulfills the law.

10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10

What I don't see is where the scripture says "faith" does not abolish the law of Moses.


Please share the scripture, where Paul says faith in Christ does not abolish the law.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Jocor,

Would you explain what Paul meant when he said "we establish the law'?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
​

As I understand it, the Greek word for "establish" means "to cause to stand." The same word was used in Romans 5:2:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
​

We stand firm through our faith and that faith makes the law stand firm. It is the opposite of making it void or useless. Here is how "katargeo" (void) was translated throughout the NT:

From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
​

These are all the ways antinomians describe the law of Moses which is what Paul is talking about in Romans 3.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's try it again -

Please share the scripture, where Paul says faith in Christ does not abolish the law.


I see where Love fulfills the law and the prophets.

On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:40

I see where love fulfills the law.

10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10

What I don't see is where the scripture says "faith" does not abolish the law of Moses.


Please share the scripture, where Paul says faith in Christ does not abolish the law.


JLB

From your post #246; replace 'believe' with 'obey':

Just take the word believe and replace it with the word obey.
[...]
The work of faith is obedience.

Our obedience--our faith--is the fulfillment of the law of Moses, not the nullification/ abolishing of the law of Moses:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

"8 he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8,10 NASB)


.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
​

As I understand it, the Greek word for "establish" means "to cause to stand." The same word was used in Romans 5:2:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
​

We stand firm through our faith and that faith makes the law stand firm. It is the opposite of making it void or useless. Here is how "katargeo" (void) was translated throughout the NT:

From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
​

These are all the ways antinomians describe the law of Moses which is what Paul is talking about in Romans 3.

In other words, through the obedience of our faith we uphold, not tear down, the law of Moses. But so many in the Protestant church insist the law of Moses is torn down by our faith in Christ.

 

[JLB]

From your post #246; replace 'believe' with 'obey':


Our obedience--our faith--is the fulfillment of the law of Moses, not the nullification/ abolishing of the law of Moses:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

"8 he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8,10 NASB)


.

Sorry Brother,

That covenant was made obsolete by God Himself. Hebrews 8:13

The law was always temporary, for the law was added until... the Seed should come.

Which is what Jesus Himself also said -

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

The law was added until the Seed should come.

Nothing will pass from the law until it is fulfilled.

UNTIL is the the word that makes it temporary.



Here is the verse that ties the law with that covenant.

So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deuteronomy 4:13

and again -

And it came to pass, at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.
Deuteronomy 9:11


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That covenant was made obsolete by God Himself. Hebrews 8:13

Yes, the old covenant is obsolete. But the law of Moses continues to be fulfilled by our faith. How do we know this? By the plain words of scripture:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

"8 he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8,10 NASB)

The problem with your doctrine is it does not differentiate between the law of Moses, and the law of Moses as a covenant. The law as a covenant is what was made obsolete by the appearance of faith. The failure to make this distinction is why your doctrine contradicts plain scriptures.

The law was always temporary, for the law was added until... the Seed should come.

Which is what Jesus Himself also said -

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

The law was added until the Seed should come.

Nothing will pass from the law until it is fulfilled.

UNTIL is the the word that makes it temporary.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. Because your doctrine doesn't recognize the difference between the law of Moses, and the law of Moses as a covenant it interprets "until all is accomplished" as meaning the abolishing of the law of Moses altogether, yet in the very same passage Jesus said he did not come to do that:

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18 NASB)

So, your doctrine creates a glaring contradiction between verses 17 and 18. It says that when "all is accomplished" the law will be abolished. But Jesus just got through saying he did not come to do that. So we know that "until all is accomplished" does not, and can not mean the abolishing of the law.

Here is the verse that ties the law with that covenant.

So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deuteronomy 4:13

and again -

And it came to pass, at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.
Deuteronomy 9:11


JLB

Yes, the law of Moses was a covenant between God and his people. But now Christ is the Covenant between God and his people. And a Covenant that upholds and fulfills the law of Moses, not abolishes it as your doctrine says. The law of Moses as a covenant is what got laid aside, not the law of Moses itself. It gets fulfilled, not abolished, in this New Covenant--exactly what Jesus said he came to do:

"17"I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. " (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

 

[JLB]

Yes, the law of Moses was a covenant between God and his people. But now Christ is the Covenant between God and his people. And a Covenant that upholds and fulfills the law of Moses, not abolishes it as your doctrine says. The law of Moses as a covenant is what got laid aside, not the law of Moses itself. It gets fulfilled, not abolished, in this New Covenant--exactly what Jesus said he came to do:

"17"I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. " (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

Yes, Jesus came to fulfill the law.

as meaning the abolishing of the law of Moses altogether, yet in the very same passage Jesus said he did not come to do that:

...one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Until it was fulfilled nothing would change from the law.

Now that it has been fulfilled, that which was added has been made obsolete and has vanished away. Hebrews 8:13


For you are not under the law, but under Grace. Romans 6:14

For those who were under the law have been redeemed from the law, so that they could become sons.

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.Galatians 4:4-5



The law of the Lord was transgressed, 430 years before the law of Moses was made between the Lord and the Children of Israel.

The law of the Lord that governed the Covenant He made with Abraham.

I have given you the scripture, that speaks to this matter for a couple of years now, discussing it with you would, and trying to get you to see the difference, yet you have continually lumped everything in the Old Testament together as the "law of Moses".

Here it is again -

What purpose then does the law serve?

The very purpose of the law is being discussed here by Paul, the reason why the law was added to the covenant that He made with Abraham.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19

The Abrahamic Covenant was made by the Lord, between Him and Abraham.

This Covenant has laws and commandments, that govern it.

The reason the law was added, was because of the transgressions of the laws of this Covenant, by the Children of Israel.

In other words, God's laws that were contained within this covenant, when the law of Moses was added, are still in force today, even though the law of Moses and that covenant has become obsolete and has passed away.

Those are the laws that the Church is obligated to keep, and not transgress.

The Lord that made Covenant with Abraham, became flesh and is the very Mediator of the New Covenant.


The law of the Lord, is the law of Christ.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, Jesus came to fulfill the law.



...one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Until it was fulfilled nothing would change from the law.

Now that it has been fulfilled, that which was added has been made obsolete and has vanished away. Hebrews 8:13

The mistake your doctrine makes is saying that which is obsolete and vanishing is equivalent to the abolishing of the law. That is impossible. Jesus himself plainly said he did not come to do that.

"17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish..." (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

You have to adjust your doctrine to accommodate this truth. As it is now, your doctrine's change to the law is the abolishing of the law. Jesus said he did not come to do that. Did he come to change the law? Yes. That happens when there is a change of the priesthood (Hebrews 7:12 NASB). But an abolishing? Impossible. He said he did not come to do that.

For you are not under the law, but under Grace. Romans 6:14

What we know from Jesus' own words is this does not mean an abolishing of the law. But that is what your doctrine says happened to the law and how it interprets not being under the law. Matthew 5:17 is how we know that not being under the law does not, and can not, mean an abolishing of the law. To have a correct doctrine about the law the definition of not being under the law HAS to be within the confines of the law not being abolished.

 

[Gregg]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
​

As I understand it, the Greek word for "establish" means "to cause to stand." The same word was used in Romans 5:2:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
​

We stand firm through our faith and that faith makes the law stand firm. It is the opposite of making it void or useless. Here is how "katargeo" (void) was translated throughout the NT:

From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
​

These are all the ways antinomians describe the law of Moses which is what Paul is talking about in Romans 3.

I asked the question because I am near ending a long and deep study of Rom 3:19-31. I am not anti-nomos, but my understanding of the Law may differ from yours. In Rom 3:31, What is the 'law' we establish as defined by Paul to the Romans? i.e. ceremonial, moral, civil, or a law of faith (Rom 3:27)?

 

[Gregg]

The Old Covenant as a whole system becomes obsolete for those entering the New Covenant through the blood of Yeshua.

True.

For those who do not receive Yeshua, they remain under the OC. What became obsolete was everything I mentioned above as old.

Rather, for the Jews only 'who do not receive' Jesus, remain under the OC (Rom 3:19); but for Gentiles who do not receive Jesus, they remain condemned (already spiritually dead and a guaranteed future physical death Rom 2:12,14-16,3:9-10) because of what is known in them about God (Rom 1:19-20, Jn 1:9).

 

[Gregg]

Do you break the Law of YHWH and teach others to do the same or do you keep it?

The Law is not the standard by which Christians are measured.

I disagree that the Law of the LORD is equivalent to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is at best an incomplete subset of the Law of the LORD. The Gentile Christian is not subject to the Law of Moses, but he is subject to the Lawgiver (Rom 6:14,22).

 

[Gregg]

Do you break the Law of YHWH and teach others to do the same or do you keep it?

Are you actually asking here . . . 'Do you keep the Sabbath?'

 

[jocor]

I asked the question because I am near ending a long and deep study of Rom 3:19-31. I am not anti-nomos, but my understanding of the Law may differ from yours. In Rom 3:31, What is the 'law' we establish as defined by Paul to the Romans? i.e. ceremonial, moral, civil, or a law of faith (Rom 3:27)?

Every use of the word "law" in Romans 3 refers to the entire body of law under the Old Covenant with the exception of the "law of faith" in verse 27, which is not really a "law" as we know it, but a "principle" or "doctrine". One cannot believe the word "law" in the ensuing verses 28 & 31 refer to the "law of faith". For then we have;

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law of faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law of faith through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law of faith.​

This makes no sense. Paul is laying out the means of justification by faith in opposition to the Law of Moses which the Jews were keeping as means of justification by works. His use of "law of faith" is referring to the principle of justification by faith. He anticipated a Jewish objection to his teaching about the true means of justification. He knew they would accuse him of making the Law void. So he included verse 31 to assure them that he was NOT making the Law void through his teaching. Faith establishes the Law. Justification by works is made void by justification by faith, but faith does not make the Law void. The "Law" referred to is the Law that the Jews were seeking to be justified by, the Law of Moses which, in reality, is the Law of YHWH.

 

[jocor]

The Law is not the standard by which Christians are measured.

Then what was Yeshua referring to in Mt 5:19? We are saved by grace, but judged by works. For the believer, it is not a judgment unto death because Yeshua took our death upon himself, but it is a matter of rewards and consequences in the Kingdom.

I disagree that the Law of the LORD is equivalent to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is at best an incomplete subset of the Law of the LORD. The Gentile Christian is not subject to the Law of Moses, but he is subject to the Lawgiver (Rom 6:14,22).

Then what is Paul saying in Romans 8:7? My commentary in brackets.

Rom 8:3 For what the law [of Moses] could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law [of Moses] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God [which is the Law of Moses], neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit [and therefore have a mind that IS subject to the Law], if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his.

You referenced Rom 6:14. Let's look at that and verse 15:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
​

What is sin? Transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Now replace the word sin in these verses with the definition of sin.

Rom 6:14 For transgressions of the Law shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we transgress the Law, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
​

The thought of transgressing the Law through faith (Rom 3:31) or through grace (Rom 6:15) is repulsive to Paul who knows that the Law is not made void by faith or grace.

 

[jocor]

Are you actually asking here . . . 'Do you keep the Sabbath?'

No. I am asking if you keep the Law of YHWH as revealed through Moses which is the Law Yeshua was referring to in Mt 5:19. It goes beyond the Sabbath. There are many other laws that Christians do not obey because they think they are abolished along with every other law given through Moses with the possible exception of the two greatest and nine of the Ten Commandments.

 

[JLB]

The mistake your doctrine makes is saying that which is obsolete and vanishing is equivalent to the abolishing of the law. That is impossible. Jesus himself plainly said he did not come to do that.

"17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish..." (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

You have to adjust your doctrine to accommodate this truth. As it is now, your doctrine's change to the law is the abolishing of the law. Jesus said he did not come to do that. Did he come to change the law? Yes. That happens when there is a change of the priesthood (Hebrews 7:12 NASB). But an abolishing? Impossible. He said he did not come to do that.

You obviously did not read my post.

The law was always temporary, for the law was added until... the Seed should come.

Which is what Jesus Himself also said -

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

The law was added until the Seed should come.

Nothing will pass from the law until it is fulfilled.

UNTIL is the the word that makes it temporary.

What we know from Jesus' own words is this does not mean an abolishing of the law. But that is what your doctrine says happened to the law and how it interprets not being under the law. Matthew 5:17 is how we know that not being under the law does not, and can not, mean an abolishing of the law. To have a correct doctrine about the law the definition of not being under the law HAS to be within the confines of the law not being abolished.

The law of Moses is no longer required for anyone to keep, as it was always temporary, as Paul and Jesus clearly teach by using the word UNTIL.

Until means the law was added temporarily. Galatians 3:19

Until means nothing was to be removed from the law, until it was fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

The very thing the Seed, Jesus came to do.

Until, your come to grips with this word, and stop ignoring what it means and why it was put in scripture, you will continue to strive against sound doctrine.

The law was added until...

Not one jot or tittle... until.


JLB

 

[jocor]

The law of Moses is no longer required for anyone to keep, as it was always temporary, as Paul and Jesus clearly teach by using the word UNTIL.

Until means the law was added temporarily. Galatians 3:19

Until means nothing was to be removed from the law, until it was fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

The very thing the Seed, Jesus came to do.

Until, your come to grips with this word, and stop ignoring what it means and why it was put in scripture, you will continue to strive against sound doctrine.

The law was added until...

Not one jot or tittle... until.


JLB

When Paul uses "law" in Gal 3:19 he is doing so as a reference to the Sinai Covenant.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Messiah, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
​

Paul is not referring to the Law of Moses as separate from the Sinai Covenant. The Sinai Covenant was until Messiah. After Messiah we are under a New Covenant that has the same law written on hearts and minds rather than on stone and papyrus.

Throughout Gal 3, Paul was trying to refute the Jewish belief of justification by a covenant of works. That is why Paul goes into his teaching on the two covenants in Gal 4. It is the Sinai Covenant that was "until" Messiah.

 

[JLB]

When Paul uses "law" in Gal 3:19 he is doing so as a reference to the Sinai Covenant.

So you believe Paul isn't referring to the law of Moses, here in this verse, but the Sinai Covenant?

When Jesus was referring to the law in Matthew 5:18, He was referring to the Sinai Covenant.

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18


We know that covenant has been made Obsolete by God Himself, so there is no need for you to be involved in an obsolete covenant with obsolete commandments.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

The New Covenant has now replaced the old covenant.

Thanks for sharing.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

Every use of the word "law" in Romans 3 refers to the entire body of law under the Old Covenant with the exception of the "law of faith" in verse 27

I disagree and will expound later; except now to say that νόμος in Rom 3 is used both with and without the article:

"whatever the Law says, it speaks to those within the Law" (Rom 3:19 LITV).
"by works of law not one of all flesh will be justified before Him, for through law is full knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20 LITV).
"a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets" (Rom 3:21).
"Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of law" (Rom 3:28 LITV).
"Then do we make law of no effect through faith? Let it not be! But we establish law" (Rom 3:31 LITV).​

The law bolded above does not necessarily refer to the Law of Moses or the decalogue.

​

One cannot believe the word "law" in the ensuing verses 28 & 31 refer to the "law of faith". For then we have;

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law of faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law of faith through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law of faith.
This makes no sense.

I mentioned nothing about the law of faith being referred to in Rom 3:28, or in the first phrase of Rom 3:31; those were added or assumed by you.

Faith establishes the Law.

I am not sure what you mean, or are referring to.

but faith does not make the Law void.

The faith of believers does not make the Law void to non-believing Jews, nor does it make void the moral law written on the hearts of all men.

 

[Deborah13]

I disagree and will expound later; except now to say that νόμος in Rom 3 is used both with and without the article:

"whatever the Law says, it speaks to those within the Law" (Rom 3:19 LITV).
"by works of law not one of all flesh will be justified before Him, for through law is full knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20 LITV).
"a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets" (Rom 3:21).
"Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of law" (Rom 3:28 LITV).
"Then do we make law of no effect through faith? Let it not be! But we establish law" (Rom 3:31 LITV).​

The law bolded above does not necessarily refer to the Law of Moses or the decalogue.

​

I mentioned nothing about the law of faith being referred to in Rom 3:28, or in the first phrase of Rom 3:31; those were added or assumed by you.

I am not sure what you mean, or are referring to.

The faith of believers does not make the Law void to non-believing Jews, nor does it make void the moral law written on the hearts of all men.

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