What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Gregg]

I said:
"The Law is not the standard by which Christians are measured", to which you replied:

Then what was Yeshua referring to in Mt 5:19? We are saved by grace, but judged by works. For the believer, it is not a judgment unto death because Yeshua took our death upon himself, but it is a matter of rewards and consequences in the Kingdom.

Mt 5:19 does not point to the Law as the standard by which a Christian is measured or judged. The Law points to Christ as our standard, "So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But faith coming, we are no longer under a trainer; for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:24-26 LITV). We are no longer under a pedagogue, but in Christ we are sons of God. His standard for us is His love, that we love the LORD and everyone He created.

- - -

I have a simple question for you:

Did the Son of God rest on the seventh day of creation?​

 

[Gregg]

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God [which is the Law of Moses], neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit [and therefore have a mind that IS subject to the Law], if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his.

What you have bracketed in Rom 8:7 is an injurious interpretation of that verse. It changes the focus from God to Moses, and restricts the scope of the law of God..

What you have bolded ["subject to the Law"] in Rom 8:9 conflicts with Rom 8:5, ". . . but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit" (Rom 8:5 ESV). Rom 8:9 is not teach subordination or subjection to the Law, but rather to the the Spirit of God.

There is something greater than the Law of Moses in the heart of a believer, "But if Christ is in you" and "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you . . ." (Rom 8:10-11 ESV).

 

[jocor]

So you believe Paul isn't referring to the law of Moses, here in this verse, but the Sinai Covenant?

He is referring to the Law of Moses as it functions within the Sinai Covenant.

When Jesus was referring to the law in Matthew 5:18, He was referring to the Sinai Covenant.

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:18

Yes did not say he was addressing the Sinai Covenant as Paul did. Since heaven and earth have not passed away, neither will the "Law" (referring to the Law of Moses since he Joined it with "the prophets" in verse 17)

We know that covenant has been made Obsolete by God Himself, so there is no need for you to be involved in an obsolete covenant with obsolete commandments.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

The New Covenant has now replaced the old covenant.

Thanks for sharing.


JLB

I am not "involved" in an obsolete covenant. I am living under the New Covenant with Yahweh's Law in my heart.

 

[jocor]

I disagree and will expound later; except now to say that νόμος in Rom 3 is used both with and without the article:

"whatever the Law says, it speaks to those within the Law" (Rom 3:19 LITV).
"by works of law not one of all flesh will be justified before Him, for through law is full knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20 LITV).
"a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets" (Rom 3:21).
"Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of law" (Rom 3:28 LITV).
"Then do we make law of no effect through faith? Let it not be! But we establish law" (Rom 3:31 LITV).​

The law bolded above does not necessarily refer to the Law of Moses or the decalogue.

I disagree. "The Law" refers to the Law of Moses. "Law" without the article can also refer to law in general (including the oral laws of the Jews that were not commanded by Yahweh), but it does not exclude the Law of Moses. In fact, in verse 20, "law" without the article definitely refers only to the Law of Moses because the knowledge of sin ONLY comes trough breaking a law given by Yahweh or one of His representatives.

​

I mentioned nothing about the law of faith being referred to in Rom 3:28, or in the first phrase of Rom 3:31; those were added or assumed by you.

I didn't say you did, but I addressed it because you included it in the options and I knew some people would therefore think that it was referring to the law of faith.

jocor said: ↑
Faith establishes the Law.

I am not sure what you mean, or are referring to.

I was referring to Romans 3:31, or are you believing it is not saying faith establishes the Law?

The faith of believers does not make the Law void to non-believing Jews, nor does it make void the moral law written on the hearts of all men.

I agree. However, the faith of believers does not make the Law void to believers either.

 

[jocor]

I said:
"The Law is not the standard by which Christians are measured", to which you replied:

Then what was Yeshua referring to in Mt 5:19? We are saved by grace, but judged by works. For the believer, it is not a judgment unto death because Yeshua took our death upon himself, but it is a matter of rewards and consequences in the Kingdom.​

Mt 5:19 does not point to the Law as the standard by which a Christian is measured or judged. The Law points to Christ as our standard, "So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But faith coming, we are no longer under a trainer; for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:24-26 LITV). We are no longer under a pedagogue, but in Christ we are sons of God. His standard for us is His love, that we love the LORD and everyone He created.

I agree, but since Messiah is our standard and our role model and since we are to be made in his image which is the same image that his Father has, then we must do as he did. He set the example for us. If we choose to steal, then we are not following his example and end up breaking the Law that he kept perfectly.

Believers will be rewarded (judged) according to their works (Mat 16:27; Rom 2:6; 2Co 5:10).

I have a simple question for you:

Did the Son of God rest on the seventh day of creation?​

No. His Father did. The Son rested on the 7th day every Sabbath, but I do not believe he rested on the very first "7th day" of the creation week.

 

[jocor]

jocor said: ↑

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God [which is the Law of Moses], neither indeed can be.​

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit [and therefore have a mind that IS subject to the Law], if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his.

What you have bracketed in Rom 8:7 is an injurious interpretation of that verse. It changes the focus from God to Moses, and restricts the scope of the law of God..

What Moses gave was the Law of Yahweh (God). He did not give his own laws.

What you have bolded ["subject to the Law"] in Rom 8:9 conflicts with Rom 8:5, ". . . but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit" (Rom 8:5 ESV). Rom 8:9 is not teach subordination or subjection to the Law, but rather to the the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God causes a person to obey Yahweh and do His will (Eze 36:26-27; John 16:13).

There is something greater than the Law of Moses in the heart of a believer, "But if Christ is in you" and "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you . . ." (Rom 8:10-11 ESV).

I totally agree.

 

[Gregg]

"The Law" refers to the Law of Moses. "Law" without the article can also refer to law in general (including the oral laws of the Jews that were not commanded by Yahweh), but it does not exclude the Law of Moses. In fact, in verse 20, "law" without the article definitely refers only to the Law of Moses because the knowledge of sin ONLY comes trough breaking a law given by Yahweh or one of His representatives.

"The Law" sometimes refers to the 10 commandments only and in other contexts it refers to the Pentateuch.

I was referring to Romans 3:31, or are you believing it is not saying faith establishes the Law?

It says "we" establish/stand by law. The word most often translated as "establish" [ἵστημι] can also mean 'uphold' or 'stand by;' for which I am leaning towards the latter in light of Gal 3:23-25. We are no longer under the Law or a law, but in Christ; and so His laws accompany us but do not rule over us.

However, the faith of believers does not make the Law void to believers either.

I agree.

 

[dianegcook]

Col.2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.

Rituals were put away, not the law.
Blood sacrifices, He became our sacrifice, He became our circumcision, our Passover, our Rest. (Sabbath)
Yahshua is our rest, I rest in Him, everyday.

N.C,
Love God with all our heart, love thy neighbor,
This is the law, because it fulfills the law.
Because, if we love our neighbor,
We will not steal,
We will not covet,
We will not commit adultry,
We will not bear false witness, and so forth, written in our hearts.

Food?
It is health laws, I believe it will not cost you, your salvation, but it could make one sick.
Example:
Pork, pigs do not have sweat glands, thus poison toxins are trapped in the meat.
They were created as scavengers, to clean the earth, as other scavengers.
God created our bodies, thus know what is good for it.
In 1Tim.4:3,4
Some say see, every creature of God is good,
But they do not go back to verse 3, where it says, which God hath created to be received.
He hath created scavengers for cleaning the earth, not to be received for food.

 

[Gregg]

In fact, in verse 20, "law" without the article definitely refers only to the Law of Moses because the knowledge of sin ONLY comes trough breaking a law given by Yahweh or one of His representatives.

You are referring to: "Because by works of law not one of all flesh will be justified before Him, for through law is full knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20 LITV).

The knowledge of sin comes through "the Law" given through Moses and through the law written on our hearts by God. Paul makes the claim that those outside of Israel and the Law given to them ["not one of all flesh" (Rom 3:20)] have a knowledge of sin:

"because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them" (Rom 1:19 LITV-TSP),
"for the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse" (Rom 1:20 LITV),
"who knowing the righteous order of God" (Rom 1:32),
"Therefore, O man, you are without excuse . . ." (Rom 2:1 LITV),
"For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing" (Rom 2:14-15 LITV).
​

So it is true that a knowledge of sin has come to Gentiles [and to Jews prior to the giving of 'the Law'] long before Moses and Mt. Sinai.

Given these things, "law" in Rom 3:20 may very well, and probably does, include the law written on the hearts of men since Adam was formed from the dust. "He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world" (John 1:9 LITV).

 

[JLB]

From your post #246; replace 'believe' with 'obey':


Our obedience--our faith--is the fulfillment of the law of Moses, not the nullification/ abolishing of the law of Moses:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

"8 he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8,10 NASB)


.

Paul says the law was abolished.

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

 

[Gregg]

Believers will be rewarded (judged) according to their works (Mat 16:27; Rom 2:6; 2Co 5:10).

True. But the standard by which those works will be considered will be Christ, the righteousness of God, "whom God set forth [exhibited] . . . for a showing forth of [a pointing out with the hand] His righteousness" (Rom 3:25). The Law points to Jesus Christ and not to itself; God points to Christ crucified, whose hands wrote both the Law on stone and the law on our hearts - "blotting out the handwriting in the ordinances against us, which was contrary to us, even He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross;" (Col 2:14 LITV).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul says the law was abolished.

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

Ordinances are the man made rabbinical judgments added to the law, not the law itself.

Besides, we know that Paul is not saying the actual law of Moses was abolished because of what he said here:

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! " (Romans 3:31 NASB)

It's impossible to say the law is not nullified/abolished in one statement and then say it's abolished in another. Unless you want to say there is a severe contradiction in the Bible.

 

[Gregg]

I would ask the moderators to allow Jocor the greatest possible leniency in responding to this line of reasoning.

I have a simple question for you:
Did the Son of God rest on the seventh day of creation?

to which you replied:

No. His Father did. The Son rested on the 7th day every Sabbath, but I do not believe he rested on the very first "7th day" of the creation week.

Because you do not recognize the LORD Jesus Christ as our God and Creator (Jn 1:3, Heb 1:2, Col 1:16, Isa 40:12,45:12), you can not understand that the Son of God rested on the seventh day of creation: "For He has spoken somewhere about the seventh day this way, 'And God rested from all His works in the seventh day [Gen. 2:2]' " (Heb 4:4 LITV), and "as God had rested from His own" (Heb 4:10 LITV).

Even if you do not believe that the Son of God created the world, surely you believe He was at least with God:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2 LITV).​

And if He was with God at that time, wouldn't He [the One through whom all things are made] have rested on the seventh day of creation? Either way, yes, the Son of God rested on the 7th day of creation!

- - -

I can see where your perspective of the Son of God [that He is not the LORD and Creator and Lawgiver] leads you to a veneration of Moses and the Law beyond what is intended. The One who wrote law on our hearts and communicated the Law to Moses, is the One who was crucified, fulfilling the Law. He is my standard; the LORD Jesus Christ is my banner; He is my righteousness and love.

I hope you will reconsider your understanding of the Law of YHWH

Now I hope you will reconsider your understanding of law and the Law.

"But of the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom' " (Heb 1:8 ESV); and "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands" (Heb 1:10 ESV).
​

 

[JLB]

Ordinances are the man made rabbinical judgments added to the law, not the law itself.

Besides, we know that Paul is not saying the actual law of Moses was abolished because of what he said here:

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! " (Romans 3:31 NASB)

It's impossible to say the law is not nullified/abolished in one statement and then say it's abolished in another. Unless you want to say there is a severe contradiction in the Bible.

Paul plainly says that He abolished the law.

Which is why "uphold" the law means just what I have been saying it means.

It upholds as s weight of measure does. That's the meaning of uphold.

The law of Moses has no place in the New Testament, especially for Gentiles, who were never under it of obligated to it in any way.

The only exception being if they wanted to live in the land of Israel and travel to Jerusalem three times s year.

The law of Moses was always temporary.

The Law of the Lord is eternal.

 

[JLB]

I would ask the moderators to allow Jocor the greatest possible leniency in responding to this line of reasoning.

to which you replied:

Because you do not recognize the LORD Jesus Christ as our God and Creator (Jn 1:3, Heb 1:2, Col 1:16, Isa 40:12,45:12), you can not understand that the Son of God rested on the seventh day of creation: "For He has spoken somewhere about the seventh day this way, 'And God rested from all His works in the seventh day [Gen. 2:2]' " (Heb 4:4 LITV), and "as God had rested from His own" (Heb 4:10 LITV).

Even if you do not believe that the Son of God created the world, surely you believe He was at least with God:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2 LITV).​

And if He was with God at that time, wouldn't He [the One through whom all things are made] have rested on the seventh day of creation? Either way, yes, the Son of God rested on the 7th day of creation!

- - -

I can see where your perspective of the Son of God [that He is not the LORD and Creator and Lawgiver] leads you to a veneration of Moses and the Law beyond what is intended. The One who wrote law on our hearts and communicated the Law to Moses, is the One who was crucified, fulfilling the Law. He is my standard; the LORD Jesus Christ is my banner; He is my righteousness and love.


Now I hope you will reconsider your understanding of law and the Law.

"But of the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom' " (Heb 1:8 ESV); and "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands" (Heb 1:10 ESV).
​

Great post Greg!

Double thumbs up!!


JLB

 

[Gregg]

Great post Greg!

Double thumbs up!!


JLB

Thank you JBL.

 

[Gregg]

What Moses gave was the Law of Yahweh (God). He did not give his own laws.

To bring post #293 to its conclusion: the Son of God, the LORD Jesus Christ, is Lord of the Sabbath (Mat 12:8). The Son of God rested with the Father after creating the cosmos; and the LORD Jesus Christ rested with the Father on the Sabbath after the Crucifixion, making possible a new creation in Christ. He Himself created the seventh day. As Lord of the Sabbath it is His to give to man (Exo 20:12), His to change its terms (compare Exo 20:8,9-11 with Deu 5:12,13-15), His to apportion (Ps 95:11, Heb 4:3), His to perfect (Heb 4:6-7,10), and His to enforce (Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17).

If a man is in Christ, then he has entered the rest which all of Scripture points to. But having said that, I do not believe the LORD would be disappointed if a man observed the 7th say Sabbath rest; and I would encourage anyone to do as much.

 

[jocor]

"The Law" sometimes refers to the 10 commandments only and in other contexts it refers to the Pentateuch.

I agree, both of which are or include Laws of Moses.

It says "we" establish/stand by law. The word most often translated as "establish" [ἵστημι] can also mean 'uphold' or 'stand by;' for which I am leaning towards the latter in light of Gal 3:23-25. We are no longer under the Law or a law, but in Christ; and so His laws accompany us but do not rule over us.

Paul is saying, in Rom 3:31, that the Law is not made void by our faith and the Law is upheld, established, stands by our faith.

Can you show me a verse that translates "ἵστημι" or more precisely "ἱστάνομεν" as "stand by"?

How can it say "we" "establish/stand by law"? Paul says we stand "by faith."

2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
​

That faith that cause us to stand is the same faith that causes the Law to stand.

 

[jocor]

You are referring to: "Because by works of law not one of all flesh will be justified before Him, for through law is full knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20 LITV).

The knowledge of sin comes through "the Law" given through Moses and through the law written on our hearts by God. Paul makes the claim that those outside of Israel and the Law given to them ["not one of all flesh" (Rom 3:20)] have a knowledge of sin:

"because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them" (Rom 1:19 LITV-TSP),
"for the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse" (Rom 1:20 LITV),
"who knowing the righteous order of God" (Rom 1:32),
"Therefore, O man, you are without excuse . . ." (Rom 2:1 LITV),
"For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing" (Rom 2:14-15 LITV).
​

So it is true that a knowledge of sin has come to Gentiles [and to Jews prior to the giving of 'the Law'] long before Moses and Mt. Sinai.

Given these things, "law" in Rom 3:20 may very well, and probably does, include the law written on the hearts of men since Adam was formed from the dust. "He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world" (John 1:9 LITV).

I agree that "law" in Romans 3:20 would include laws written on Gentile hearts prior to Moses. That is because they are laws of Yahweh. Yahweh later gave those same laws and many more to Moses to write down so there would be no doubt what His will is for His people. In other words, the laws given to Moses include the laws written on Gentile hearts.

 

[jocor]

True. But the standard by which those works will be considered will be Christ, the righteousness of God, "whom God set forth [exhibited] . . . for a showing forth of [a pointing out with the hand] His righteousness" (Rom 3:25). The Law points to Jesus Christ and not to itself; God points to Christ crucified, whose hands wrote both the Law on stone and the law on our hearts - "blotting out the handwriting in the ordinances against us, which was contrary to us, even He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross;" (Col 2:14 LITV).

Messiah's righteousness is pointed to by Yahweh for our justification and the standard for our salvation. It is not the basis for how we will be rewarded in the Kingdom. That is based on our works whether good or bad 2Co 5:10).

I will address Col 2:14 when I address dianegcook's post.