What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

As Christians we have to understand how a covenant that has been made obsolete by faith in Christ

These words you have posted makes it obvious you really don't understand what you are saying.

Our faith in Christ did not make the law of Moses and that covenant obsolete.

God Himself made it obsolete.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete...

Yet all I hear you saying is it's everyone else who doesn't "understand".

Reminds of what Paul said...

desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
1 Timothy 1:7


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

These words you have posted makes it obvious you really don't understand what you are saying.

Our faith in Christ did not make the law of Moses and that covenant obsolete.

God Himself made it obsolete.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete...

Yet all I hear you saying is it's everyone else who doesn't "understand".

Reminds of what Paul said...

desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
1 Timothy 1:7


JLB

The new way of faith in Christ is what made the old way of the first covenant obsolete and no longer needed.

"...we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

"...we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain..." (Hebrews 10:19 NIV)

.

 

[JLB]

The new way of faith in Christ is what made the old way of the first covenant obsolete and no longer needed.

Wrong again, sir.

God Himself made the old covenant obsolete.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

Faith has always been the way, as it is written -

But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:11

and again -

just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Galatians 3:6


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Wrong again, sir.

God Himself made the old covenant obsolete.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

Faith has always been the way, as it is written -

But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:11

and again -

just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Galatians 3:6


JLB

Some times I read your posts and say to myself," How in the world can this guy not believe in eternal security."

But I do have a question for you. Just when did Abraham believe God and it was counted as righteousness to him?

 

[jocor]

These words you have posted makes it obvious you really don't understand what you are saying.

Our faith in Christ did not make the law of Moses and that covenant obsolete.

God Himself made it obsolete.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete...

Verse 13 says the first covenant was made obsolete. It does NOT say the Law was made obsolete. The first covenant was an AGREEMENT based on the Law. It was a conditional covenant. Yahweh would bless Israel if they would obeyed His commandments (Ex 19:5-6). If Yahweh simply gave His commandments to Israel and said, "Obey them," it would not have been a conditional covenant. The covenant was sealed in blood after the Israelites agreed to obey (Ex 24:7-8).

So why was it made obsolete? Because Israel broke the covenant. It was a glorious covenant, but it had one fault, the people (Heb 8:8). The Law was not faulty. The Law was "perfect" (Psalm 19:7) and "holy, just and good" (Rom 7:12). The Law did not need changing, the people did. So Yahweh created new creatures in Messiah Yeshua through faith. He gave them a new heart. He then wrote His sames laws in their heart and mind (Jer 31:33) and gave them a new Spirit that would cause them to keep His laws (Ezek 36:26-27) unless, of course, they rebelled against the leading of the Holy Spirit. The man who is led by the Spirit WILL be subject to Yahweh's laws (Rom 8:6-9).

The new covenant includes a better sacrifice. Why? Because sin (breaking the Law - 1Jo 3:4) still exists and must be dealt with. How do we know sin still exists? Because the Law tells us it does when we break it (Rom 3:20). How do we know the Law still exists? Because Paul told us it is now firmly established through faith (Rom 3:31).

 

[JLB]

Some times I read your posts and say to myself," How in the world can this guy not believe in eternal security."

I believe in Jesus Christ.

But I do have a question for you. Just when did Abraham believe God and it was counted as righteousness to him?

When He obeyed.

Just take the word believe and replace it with the word obey.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

The work of faith is obedience.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham believed God that He would be the father of many nations, so he didn't hesitate when God required him to sacrifice his only begotten son which would have provided Abraham with the next generation.

It was in Isaac that the promise was made, and Abraham believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead if necessary, because he knew that he knew that God would not lie to him.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Verse 13 says the first covenant was made obsolete. It does NOT say the Law was made obsolete. The first covenant was an AGREEMENT based on the Law. It was a conditional covenant. Yahweh would bless Israel if they would obeyed His commandments (Ex 19:5-6). If Yahweh simply gave His commandments to Israel and said, "Obey them," it would not have been a conditional covenant. The covenant was sealed in blood after the Israelites agreed to obey (Ex 24:7-8).

So why was it made obsolete? Because Israel broke the covenant. It was a glorious covenant, but it had one fault, the people (Heb 8:8). The Law was not faulty. The Law was "perfect" (Psalm 19:7) and "holy, just and good" (Rom 7:12). The Law did not need changing, the people did. So Yahweh created new creatures in Messiah Yeshua through faith. He gave them a new heart. He then wrote His sames laws in their heart and mind (Jer 31:33) and gave them a new Spirit that would cause them to keep His laws (Ezek 36:26-27) unless, of course, they rebelled against the leading of the Holy Spirit. The man who is led by the Spirit WILL be subject to Yahweh's laws (Rom 8:6-9).

The new covenant includes a better sacrifice. Why? Because sin (breaking the Law - 1Jo 3:4) still exists and must be dealt with. How do we know sin still exists? Because the Law tells us it does when we break it (Rom 3:20). How do we know the Law still exists? Because Paul told us it is now firmly established through faith (Rom 3:31).

The was always temporary.

as it is written -

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19

Has the Seed come?

The law was added until the Seed should come...

And it came to pass, at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant. Deuteronomy 9:11


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wrong again, sir.

God Himself made the old covenant obsolete.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

Faith has always been the way, as it is written -

But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:11

and again -

just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Galatians 3:6


JLB

"23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed." (Galatians 3:23 NASB)

When this way of faith in Christ for justification was fully revealed to the world with the appearing of Christ it made the way of the first covenant--the old way--obsolete, that is, no longer needed. Now we uphold the law of Moses through the new way of faith.

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be!" (Romans 3:31 NASB)

 

[JLB]

"23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed." (Galatians 3:23 NASB)

When this way of faith in Christ for justification was fully revealed to the world with the appearing of Christ it made the way of the first covenant--the old way--obsolete, that is, no longer needed. Now we uphold the law of Moses through the new way of faith.

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be!" (Romans 3:31 NASB)

Great scriptures, but the truth still remains.

God Himself made it obsolete.

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13

For the law was added until the Seed should come... Galatians 3:19


We are subject to the law of God, which Paul calls the law of Christ, not the law of Moses, which God made obsolete.

Paul says he is not subject to the law.

When I am with the Jews, I become one of them so that I can bring them to Christ. When I am with those who follow the Jewish laws, I do the same, even though I am not subject to the law, so that I can bring them to Christ. When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.1 Corinthians 9:20-21

I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

Paul calls the law of God the law of Christ.

The law of the Lord Jesus Christ is not the law of Moses.

The law of the Lord is different than the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are subject to the law of God, which Paul calls the law of Christ, not the law of Moses, which God made obsolete.

Paul says he is not subject to the law.

When I am with the Jews, I become one of them so that I can bring them to Christ. When I am with those who follow the Jewish laws, I do the same, even though I am not subject to the law, so that I can bring them to Christ. When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.1 Corinthians 9:20-21

He is not subject to the law of Moses as a covenant. We see him keeping the law of Moses in Acts. So we know 'not being under the law of Moses' does not mean no longer keeping the law of Moses. It does mean he no longer HAS to do those literal things as a matter of covenant, because they were made obsolete by the New Covenant and faith in the work of Christ. Which satisfies and upholds the very law of Moses, not some other cosmic law instead, which, if that were true, would nullify the law of Moses.

I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

Paul calls the law of God the law of Christ.

The law of the Lord Jesus Christ is not the law of Moses.

The law of the Lord is different than the law of Moses.


JLB

Oh, I see. The law of Moses got nullified.

NOT!

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, " (Romans 3:31 NASB)

Your doctrine fails to explain how the first covenant can be made obsolete by the appearing of the New Covenant, yet the law of Moses remain fulfilled and upheld, not abolished. Every time you talk about the law you have it nullified and abolished by replacing it with another law in direct contradiction to Paul's words. You can't explain what an obsolete covenant and an UN-nullified law of Moses means.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there isany other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOURNEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11 Do this..." (Romans 13:9-11 NASB)

I see a fulfilled and upheld law of Moses here....not some other cosmic law being fulfilled by faith in Christ. And not only that, I see Paul saying to "Do this" (vs. 11)! But your doctrine says we fulfill, and are required to do, another law, abolishing and nullifying the law of Moses in favor of another law. But Paul adamantly proclaims that the law of Moses is NOT nullified by faith in Christ. "On the Contrary!" (Romans 3:31 NASB).

 

[JLB]

He is not subject to the law of Moses as a covenant.

He is not subject to the law of Moses.

He is subject to the law of Christ.

For we are not under the law, but under Grace. Romans 6:14

I see a fulfilled and upheld law of Moses here....not some other cosmic law being fulfilled by faith in Christ. And not only that, I see Paul saying to "Do this" (vs. 11)! But your doctrine says we fulfill, and are required to do, another law, abolishing and nullifying the law of Moses in favor of another law. But Paul adamantly proclaims that the law of Moses is NOT nullified by faith in Christ. "On the Contrary!" (Romans 3:31 NASB).

God Himself has made that covenant, which was written on tablets of stone, obsolete.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

We are not obligated to the law of Moses, the mediator of the old covenant.

We are subject to the law of Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

I believe in Jesus Christ.



When He obeyed.

Just take the word believe and replace it with the word obey.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

The work of faith is obedience.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham believed God that He would be the father of many nations, so he didn't hesitate when God required him to sacrifice his only begotten son which would have provided Abraham with the next generation.

It was in Isaac that the promise was made, and Abraham believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead if necessary, because he knew that he knew that God would not lie to him.


JLB

Thanks for your time JLB.

 

[Gregg]

Just take the word believe and replace it with the word obey.

Thank you for this statement demonstrating how you handle the word of God; the Holy Spirit says one thing - "believe", and you assign another word - "obey".

The Scriptures say that the life we have in Christ is eternal - "eternal life" (Rom 5:2,21,6:22-23, Tit 3:7), and yet you say it is actually 'temporary life'.

- - -

re:this thread:
We are not subject to the Law, as being under it; because we have passed into the hands of the One who gave the Law. Now we are captive to Christ, and can freely live by every word that comes from the mouth of our God.

 

[JLB]

Thank you for this statement demonstrating how you handle the word of God; the Holy Spirit says one thing - "believe", and you assign another word - "obey".

The Scriptures say that the life we have in Christ is eternal - "eternal life" (Rom 5:2,21,6:22-23, Tit 3:7), and yet you say it is actually 'temporary life'.

- - -

re:this thread:
We are not subject to the Law, as being under it; because we have passed into the hands of the One who gave the Law. Now we are captive to Christ, and can freely live by every word that comes from the mouth of our God.

Believers have eternal life.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He is not subject to the law of Moses.

Which has to mean he is not subject to the law of Moses as a covenant or else he would be contradicting his own words that faith does not nullify/ abolish the law of Moses.

You still have not explained the contradiction your doctrine creates by saying our obedience is to a different law, not the law of Moses, thereby abolishing the law of Moses--which Paul says faith does not do.

He is subject to the law of Christ.

Which has to be the law of Moses out of the context of it being a covenant--and the law which he plainly says gets fulfilled, not nullified by our faith in Christ when we walk in the obedience of that faith:

"...love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this..." (Romans 13:10-11 NASB)

"14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

But as it is, your doctrine defies the passages above and says the obedience of New Covenant faith fulfills another law, not the law of Moses.

For we are not under the law, but under Grace. Romans 6:14

"13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love (fulfilling the law of Moses--not another law) serve one another. " (Galatians 5:13 NASB parenthesis mine)

Your doctrine makes freedom from the law of Moses to mean we nullify the law in favor of another law. But Paul says don't turn your freedom from the law (for what that actually means) into a reason to not fulfill (nullify) the law of Moses. Understand?

God Himself has made that covenant, which was written on tablets of stone, obsolete.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

We are not obligated to the law of Moses, the mediator of the old covenant.

We are subject to the law of Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant.


JLB

Because your doctrine does not properly differentiate between the law of Moses, and the law of Moses as a covenant, you have 'not being under the law' meaning the law of Moses was abolished and nullified, yet Paul plainly said faith in Christ does not do that. Your job is to explain how your doctrine does not nullify the law of Moses, yet sets it aside as a covenant between God and his people. My doctrine does that. Your's does not. Your doctrine nullifies the law of Moses.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thank you for this statement demonstrating how you handle the word of God; the Holy Spirit says one thing - "believe", and you assign another word - "obey".

The Scriptures say that the life we have in Christ is eternal - "eternal life" (Rom 5:2,21,6:22-23, Tit 3:7), and yet you say it is actually 'temporary life'.

- - -

re:this thread:
We are not subject to the Law, as being under it; because we have passed into the hands of the One who gave the Law. Now we are captive to Christ, and can freely live by every word that comes from the mouth of our God.

So you mean that if I don't hang on to the winning lotto ticket for thirty years of annual payments, that somehow makes the winnings less than thirty years of annual payments? How does that work?

 

[JLB]

meaning the law of Moses was abolished and nullified, yet Paul plainly said faith in Christ does not do that.

Please share the scripture, where Paul says faith in Christ does not abolish the law.


JLB

 

[Gregg]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Jocor,

Would you explain what Paul meant when he said "we establish the law'?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please share the scripture, where Paul says faith in Christ does not abolish the law.


JLB

The faith that justifies is the faith that loves: "6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love. " (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

In other words, love is your faith in Christ with legs on it at work in the world. And when we do that--that is, show the faith that justifies through our love--we are fulfilling, not abolishing, the law of Moses:

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

"8 he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8,10 NASB)