What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

18 "For truly I say to you

For truly I say to you, means that what He is about to say, is the truth.

When know Jesus is the truth.

We also know that in this verse contains the words; from the law till all is fulfilled.

By these words from Jesus we know the law of Moses was temporary.

It's easy to see that verses 17 and 18 are firmly connected. Just as verses 18 and 19 are. All three together are talking about the instruction of the law of Moses and the prophets, not just the prophecies about Jesus in the law and the prophets.

The phrase Law and Prophets is a reference to all the Torah which includes Genesis as well as parts of Exodus which were before the Ten Commandments were given at Mount Sinai.

In other words, the passover Lamb was a picture and prophetic type of Jesus Christ, which was fulfilled.

No one is arguing that the righteous requirements that were contained in the Abrahamic Covenant, and were seen in the law of Moses, have been done away with, but the law of Moses with it's commandments and ordinances have been abolished and declared obsolete and have vanished away.

If you believe the commandments within the law of Moses are still for the Church today, under the new covenant, then you had better obey them and show everyone that you believe they are for the church by obeying them.

So that you can start today, the Sabbath, and stone to death everyone who is in violation of that commandment.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you believe the commandments within the law of Moses are still for the Church today, under the new covenant, then you had better obey them and show everyone that you believe they are for the church by obeying them.

So that you can start today, the Sabbath, and stone to death everyone who is in violation of that commandment.


JLB

If this is all you got out of what I'm saying then it's obvious you haven't heard a word I've been saying. You're simply not ready to grasp the truths I've been sharing about the role of the law in this New Covenant.

 

[JLB]

Why would Yahweh destroy those that eat swine's flesh if He now allows His people to eat swine's flesh?

Because YHWH purified all foods.

as Paul confirms -

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You cannot pick and choose which commands have a spiritual application that renders the literal application null and void.

Well, actually I can, just as you have.

My conscience is only responsible to me and my station with God. If I think various literal requirements of the law, like animal sacrifice for sin, are fulfilled, not abolished, through their higher spiritual understandings in lieu of their literal fulfillment then that is what I'm accountable to God about until he shows me otherwise. It's impossible for you to judge me about these, just as it is impossible for me to judge you about them.

Are we now free to murder, steal, commit adultery, covet, etc.?

Of course not. That is not is what is in dispute about the law. The legitimate dispute is about the literal worship requirements of the law that were required for purposes of covenant. God gives me the space to understand them the way I do just as he has given space to you to understand them the way you do. Obviously, that space does not exist in matters that aren't up for debate--adultery, theft, murder, etc.

Paul applied the command to not muzzle oxen to providing for the needs of Yahweh's ministers. Does that mean we can now literally muzzle our oxen as they tread our grain?

"9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written..." (1 Corinthians 9:9-10 NASB)

If you want to take it as a literal command that must be kept no matter what then do that. Who am I to judge you? But my revelation about the matter shows that it was not given out of concern for the oxen, but for the matter of it's true spiritual meaning. Who are you to judge me?

This is an excellent example of the law of Moses becoming obsolete, yet it finding it's fulfillment (not it's abolishing) in this New Covenant. It's an uphill battle, but this is what I'm trying to show people in this thread. You are firmly camped on one extreme of this matter of law in the New Covenant, and the others are firmly camped on the other extreme. Through an open-minded, non-defensive, teachable spirit the truth that lies in the middle of the two extremes can be found. I will say, you're probably closer to the truth than the other extreme that has tossed out the law of Moses altogether.

Also, Yahweh, not Yeshua, used forbidden foods (foods that the Apostle Peter was still not eating ten years after Yeshua's resurrection) to teach a lesson concerning fellowship. He was teaching that the Gentile converts were clean, not the food.

Surely, but it makes no sense to use foods that you say are, and will forever be, unclean to illustrate the unclean gentiles now becoming clean. But as I say, this is a legitimately disputable matter. I won't judge you, and you won't judge me about it. Romans 14:3-13 NASB shows us that this is what God wants far and above the matter of food being clean or unclean. 'Mercy triumphs over judgment' (James 2:12-13 NASB).

The Bible never records such an abominable interpretation as that. The interpretation recorded is;

Acts 10:28 - "... but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."​

He's talking about men, not food, true enough. But it's interesting that God would use food that you say can not conceivably ever be clean to illustrate how something that was once unclean is now made clean because of faith in Christ. That's like me using Kim Khardasian or Miley Cyrus to illustrate how women can become virtuous and that you should accept them as such. But until they become that they will be useless to that end.

 

[JLB]

Correct. But that hardly means an abolishing of those food laws.

That's exactly what it means.

You can eat any food you like.

Therefore the previous law of Moses that forbid this very thing has been done away with, abolished, is obsolete, is no longer a valid commandment...

JLB

 

[JLB]

If this is all you got out of what I'm saying then it's obvious you haven't heard a word I've been saying. You're simply not ready to grasp the truths I've been sharing about the role of the law in this New Covenant.

No one is arguing that the righteous requirements that were contained in the Abrahamic Covenant, and were seen in the law of Moses, have been done away with, but the law of Moses with it's commandments and ordinances have been abolished and declared obsolete and have vanished away.


Did you read this Jethro?

Did grasp what was said here?

15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

Do you understand that the law which was for the Children of Israel, and not the Gentiles, has been abolished.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's exactly what it means.

You can eat any food you like.

Therefore the previous law of Moses that forbid this very thing has been done away with, abolished, is obsolete, is no longer a valid commandment...

JLB

Hey, if that's what you believe, then so be it. But you won't get very far with that doctrine because it directly violates Jesus' own words that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-18 NASB). The law about foods is a perfect example of this. But if you can't see that...well, you can't see it then I guess.

I have nothing else to discuss with you about this until you approach the matter in a more humble, seeking, questioning kind of way. I really have no more interest in trying to help you see that which you have firmly shown that you can not see.

 

[JLB]

Hey, if that's what you believe, then so be it. But you won't get very far with that doctrine because it directly violates Jesus' own words that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-18 NASB).

Not the Torah, The first five books of the bible, which includes Genesis and the Abrahamic Covenant, but the law of Moses.

The Law = Torah

The law of Moses

The law of Christ.

The law of sin and death

The law of faith

The law of gravity

The Royal Law

The law of liberty


Which one of the laws of God refers to the law of Moses?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The law about foods is a perfect example of this. But if you can't see that...well, you can't see it then I guess.

...I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself;

Brother, what is there to see, but the clear and plain words of scripture?

6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks....
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Romans 14:6, 14-15

and again -

19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:19


What is it here in these verse's by Jesus and Paul, do you see where there is some food law that restricts us from eating any food?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not the Torah, The first five books of the bible, which includes Genesis and the Abrahamic Covenant, but the law of Moses.

The Law = Torah

The law of Moses

The law of Christ.

The law of sin and death

The law of faith

The law of gravity

The Royal Law

The law of liberty


Which one of the laws of God refers to the law of Moses?


JLB

Numbers 1, 2, 3, 7, & 8.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is it here in these verse's by Jesus and Paul, do you see where there is some food law that restricts us from eating any food?


JLB

Because you can't grasp what I have been saying you mistakenly think this should somehow be addressed to me. I'm not the one defending the literal prohibition of foods. But it's obvious you have failed to understand my argument so completely and thoroughly that you think I defend the literal Mosaic prohibition of foods.

 

[JLB]

Numbers 1, 2, 3, 7, & 8.

There's the problem.

You have been deceived by the so called "law keepers" into thinking that the law of Christ is the law of Moses.

No wonder you can't see what I'm saying.

The law of Christ is the law of the New Testament.

The law of Moses, was added until Christ, and was the law of the Sinai Covenant.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Because you can't grasp what I have been saying you mistakenly think this should somehow be addressed to me. I'm not the one defending the literal prohibition of foods. But it's obvious you have failed to understand my argument so completely and thoroughly that you think I defend the literal Mosaic prohibition of foods.

No I think you defend the New Law of Moses, which replaced the old literal one.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There's the problem.

You have been deceived by the so called "law keepers" into thinking that the law of Christ is the law of Moses.

No wonder you can't see what I'm saying.

JLB

I understand your argument perfectly. The problem is you simply can not grasp my argument. You have to understand your opponents argument before you can assail it. So, until you can do that I really have nothing else to say about an argument you don't even understand to begin with.

You'd do well to stop here, or start being willing to understand my argument, or you'll get this thread locked.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No I think you defend the New Law of Moses, which replaced the old literal one.

JLB

Nope. Same ol' law of Moses, just fulfilled in a new way.

Once again you show you simply can't understand what I've been saying.

 

[chessman]

Why would Yahweh destroy those that eat swine's flesh if He now allows His people to eat swine's flesh?

He won't. Read it again. He will consume those that attempt to sanctify and purify themselves. Versus saving those who trust in Christ for their purification. Self purification is an anti-Christian concept based upon idolizing creatures for purification, as if men don't have their own toxins themselves.

Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith YHWH.
​

​

As for Yeshua, the fish he ate had fins and scales as commanded in the Law of Moses.

Okay, but my point was that meat doesn't get purified via sweat glands. Nor does a man get corrupted via what he eats.

Matthew 15:11, 17-19 (LEB) It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth—this defiles a person.” ... Do you not understand that everything that enters into the mouth goes into the stomach and is evacuated into the latrine? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart (see Is 66:18), and these defile the person. ​

Everything would incude dust, dirt and a few molecules of dead pig meat. Think about it, the air you breath and water you drink has molecular particles from pigs in it.
The Pharisees (non-pig eaters) just thought they were clean via their washings and diet. Yet their hearts were evil in God's sight. And they had The heart Purifier standing there talking to them. Amazingly ironic.

 

[JLB]

Once again you show you simply can't understand what I've been saying.

Brother, you have stated openly that you think the law of Christ is the law of Moses.

Post # 330 is proof of that.

So you are right, I don't understand why you would think that or say that.

 

[Deborah13]

It's not real clear where you're at in all this, but it does seem that you understand 'dogma' does not by definition mean 'man made'. That's why 'dogma' can mean rabbinical law in Ephesians 2:15 NASB, and mean the sum total of the law of Moses (with it's rabbinical add on's) in Colossians 2:14 NASB. Context is how we now what 'dogma' is being addressed. Agreed?

Dogma probably doesn't mean the law of Moses in Ephesians 2:15 NASB because it is made clear without argument in more than one other place in the Bible that the law of Moses was not abolished. On the other hand, dogma can mean the law of Moses in Colossians 2:14 NASB because the context of the passage is the written debt of law (and how it relates to rabbinical add on law).



Here's the truly amazing part. Somehow the exact same law before it was written down in the law of Moses is somehow a different law after it got written down in the law of Moses.

Not all of the ordinances in the Law of Moses were God's commandments from the beginning. The Law of Moses allows divorce with no punishment for it (Deut. 24:1) but God did not intend for people to divorce from the beginning. (Matt. 19:4-6) Moses' Law has all kinds of food laws but in the beginning man did not eat meat at all (Gen. 1:29-30) then after the flood man was allowed to eat all meats (Gen. 9:1-5). Laws change. The Law of Moses was covenant made with a particular people for a particular time.

Of course, this ridiculous doctrine was invented to explain and defend the gross misunderstanding that the law of Moses was somehow abolished by Jesus.

I agree that the Jesus did not abolish the Law of Moses.

What's even more amazing is the fear so many have in acknowledging that the law of Moses has not been abolished. The irrational, knee jerk reaction to that being that somehow means we are back under the condemnation of the law, and back under the literal first covenant system of worship. But that's not what it means at all. But I know what an uphill battle it is to undo centuries of erroneous indoctrination and misunderstanding about the law in the church today.

The Law of Moses was not a first covenant system of worship in the sense that it was all ceremonial, if that is what you mean.
I can't say anything about what anyone else thinks only myself.
I believe that we are to obey God no matter what He tells us to do, even if it doesn't make any sense to me. Not for justification but because I should honor my Father's ways.
If the Law of Moses has not been made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and is still in effect then I should be doing all the things that the Law of Moses says to do because my Father made those decrees, that was His will.
The way I see it, we can't have it both ways. Either we are to literally obey it or it is obsolete.
When Jesus said to take care of the poor, He meant to literally take care of the poor. When He said don't eat shellfish, He literally meant don't eat shellfish.

 

[JLB]

I agree that the Jesus did not abolish the Law of Moses.

Deborah,

I ask you to honestly consider what Paul says here.

The very thing that distinguished the children of Israel from the other nations was the particular laws and commandments that were given through Moses to them.

These laws and commandments contained in ordinances were specifically given to the Children of Israel.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15

What was the cause of the enmity, that was abolished in His flesh, according to this scripture?


JLB

 

[JLB]

If the Law of Moses has not been made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and is still in effect then I should be doing all the things that the Law of Moses says to do because my Father made those decrees, that was His will.
The way I see it, we can't have it both ways. Either we are to literally obey it or it is obsolete.

Well said Deb!