What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Deborah13]

Gen.7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, The male and his female, and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Evidently, Noah knew about the clean and unclean.

Gen 9:1 And God blesseth Noah, and his sons, and saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth;
Gen 9:2 and your fear and your dread is on every beast of the earth, and on every fowl of the heavens, on all that creepeth on the ground, and on all fishes of the sea--into your hand they have been given.
Gen 9:3 Every creeping thing that is alive, to you it is for food; as the green herb I have given to you the whole;
Gen 9:4 only flesh in its life--its blood--ye do not eat.
Noah made sacrifices so he would have had to know which animals were clean.
Before the flood he only ate plants, as did all animals as well.

 

[dianegcook]

Lev. 11:7-10
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud, he is unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall he not eat, and their carcase shall he not touch, they are unclean to you.
These shall he eat of all that are in the waters, whatsoevereth hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall he eat.
And all that have not fins and scales.........
Shall be an abomination unto you.

 

[Deborah13]

It says right in what you quoted that it is when we walk according to the Spirit that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. How is that not us fulfilling the righteousness of the law through our obedience? Paul says later in Romans 13:8-10 NASB that when we love others we are fulfilling the law. How is that not us fulfilling the righteousness of the law through our obedience?
You'll have to explain that one.
Which is a completely different aspect of righteousness. That is the righteousness--a legal declaration of righteousness--that we don't do for ourselves and which is gained for us by Christ. That has nothing to do with the fact that we have to walk in the Spirit (obey God) in order to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. Not for the purpose of justification. That can only happen by Christ giving us his declaration of righteousness. We obey for the purpose of the righteousness of the law to be fulfilled in what we do. The passage you quoted above shows that does not happen until we walk according to the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience...).
But the point is, the righteousness of the law does not get fulfilled in us until we walk in the Spirit.
If I would have thought about it better I would have realized that. No need to put a feed bag on an ox standing over the threshed out grain, right?


Besides the rabbinical add-on law allowing a man to divorce a wife, what other principle of the law of Moses does not get fulfilled in this New Covenant? Maybe there is some, but I can't think of any. The point being, the law of Moses gets fulfilled, not abolished, in this New Covenant (I know you agree it's not abolished). But surely what did happen is the law is no longer the literal covenant between God and his people. It was made obsolete in that regard, but fulfilled in this New Covenant when we believe and obey, nonetheless.
Maybe there's a couple of laws that we don't, but I can't think of any right off hand.
It's not enough to just be in Christ to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us. The Romans passage you cited says we must walk in the Spirit for that to happen.
The only righteousness of the law that is fulfilled for and in us apart from our works is our legal right standing before God. That is entirely a gift given to us through our faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ.

We are not going to understand each other about the righteousness of the law. I've stated what I believe and so have you.

What rabbical law that they could divorce? Are you saying Moses gave rabbical laws? I'm pretty sure that God gave this commandment for Moses to give to the people. This is what the Pharisees were asking about that Moses said. Jesus didn't disagree with them that Moses had given it to them but it said it wasn't that way in the beginning.
Deu 24:1 `When a man doth take a wife, and hath married her, and it hath been, if she doth not find grace in his eyes (for he hath found in her nakedness of anything), and he hath written for her a writing of divorce, and given it into her hand, and sent her out of his house,
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

 

[Deborah13]

Lev. 11:7-10
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud, he is unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall he not eat, and their carcase shall he not touch, they are unclean to you.
These shall he eat of all that are in the waters, whatsoevereth hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall he eat.
And all that have not fins and scales.........
Shall be an abomination unto you.

This law came to the nation of Israel many years later. Just like all the other unclean/clean laws did. It was not one of the seven laws given to Noah. But then Noah was a God fearing Gentile.

 

[JLB]

It says right in what you quoted that it is when we walk according to the Spirit that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. How is that not us fulfilling the righteousness of the law through our obedience? Paul says later in Romans 13:8-10 NASB that when we love others we are fulfilling the law. How is that not us fulfilling the righteousness of the law through our obedience?

that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:4

I agree that the righteous requirement of both the law and faith are obedience.

That is what Paul teaches us in Romans 3:31, that we uphold the law through our faith.

Both the law and faith have an equal common denominator in obedience.


JLB

 

[dianegcook]

This law came to the nation of Israel many years later. Just like all the other unclean/clean laws did. It was not one of the seven laws given to Noah. But then Noah was a God fearing Gentile.

OK, but aren't we discussing the law of Moses?
God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.

 

[Deborah13]

OK, but aren't we discussing the law of Moses?
God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.

I think we are discussing several views about God's laws and the Law of Moses.
What does it mean to you that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever?
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[dianegcook]

I think we are discussing several views about God's laws and the Law of Moses.
What does it mean to you that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever?
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Wasn't Jesus, God in the flesh?

Isa.9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[Deborah13]

Wasn't Jesus, God in the flesh?

Isa.9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of coarse.
John Gill had much to say about this verse Hebrews 13:8, this is the last part.....
"Moreover, these words may regard the immutability of Christ; who is unchangeable in his person, perfections, and essence, as God; and in his love to his people; and in the fulness of his grace, and in the efficacy of his blood, and in the virtue of his sacrifice and righteousness: it may be observed, that , translated "the same", answers to "he", a name of God, Psalm 102:27 and which is used in Jewish writings (x) for a name of God; and so it is among the Turks (y): and it is expressive of his eternity, immutability, and independence; and well agrees with Christ, who is God over all, blessed for ever." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/hebrews/13.htm

 

[dianegcook]

Of coarse.
John Gill had much to say about this verse Hebrews 13:8, this is the last part.....
"Moreover, these words may regard the immutability of Christ; who is unchangeable in his person, perfections, and essence, as God; and in his love to his people; and in the fulness of his grace, and in the efficacy of his blood, and in the virtue of his sacrifice and righteousness: it may be observed, that , translated "the same", answers to "he", a name of God, Psalm 102:27 and which is used in Jewish writings (x) for a name of God; and so it is among the Turks (y): and it is expressive of his eternity, immutability, and independence; and well agrees with Christ, who is God over all, blessed for ever." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/hebrews/13.htm

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are not going to understand each other about the righteousness of the law. I've stated what I believe and so have you.

You stated what you believe, but you did not explain it. So next time you see that dumb glazed look on my face when you bring it up, it won't be my usual look that time. It will be there because I don't know what you mean when you say you believe the righteousness of the law is distinct and separate from the law itself.

What rabbical law that they could divorce? Are you saying Moses gave rabbical laws?

I think he did. He was entitled to do that. And those rabbinical judgments were in fact binding on the people...

2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
(Matthew 23:2-4 NIV)

Which explains the significance of being released from those judgments when the law they were based on ceased to be the literal covenant between God and his people. The rabbinical authorities were stripped of their authority. And because most of them after Moses were buffoons, they and their stupid, legalistic, misguided judgments were made a spectacle by the cross (Colossians 2:15-16 NASB).

I'm pretty sure that God gave this commandment for Moses to give to the people.

Maybe he did. I have no problem with dat.

This is what the Pharisees were asking about that Moses said. Jesus didn't disagree with them that Moses had given it to them but it said it wasn't that way in the beginning.
Deu 24:1 `When a man doth take a wife, and hath married her, and it hath been, if she doth not find grace in his eyes (for he hath found in her nakedness of anything), and he hath written for her a writing of divorce, and given it into her hand, and sent her out of his house,
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Then really what you're pointing out here is that Moses did not give the green light on divorce as it is commonly believed, since adultery has been universally understood to be legitimate grounds for divorce anyway, and that Jesus is suggesting that the person who divorces their spouse for infidelity according to the command he gave Moses is allowed to do so but only because of hardness of heart, but really that is not the way it's supposed to be(?) I dunno. What do you think?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think we are discussing several views about God's laws and the Law of Moses.
What does it mean to you that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever?
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

His plan and purpose have never changed, and never will:

"God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose..." (Hebrews 6:17 NASB)

"14 ...to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." (Titus 2:14 NASB)

How he gets it done has. In speaking of the new way of the Holy Spirit to come the prophet said:

19 "Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert. " (Isaiah 43:19 NASB)

 

[Deborah13]

You stated what you believe, but you did not explain it. So next time you see that dumb glazed look on my face when you bring it up, it won't be my usual look that time. It will be there because I don't know what you mean when you say you believe the righteousness of the law is distinct and separate from the law itself.

I try to explain. :neutral
A law can be righteous but in order for it to be a law there has to be a judgement for breaking that law. The Law of Moses (all of them are righteous) but they no longer carry a judgement for those in Christ. That judgement was satisfied at the cross. The righteousness of the law (any law of God) is determined by the one who makes the law. In this case all the laws, before the Law of Moses, during, and after are all given by Christ therefore, they are all righteous.
I believe that the way all Law including the Law of Moses is fulfilled in us is by obedience to the lawmaker, who is Christ. That is why I say the Messiah is Torah. When we obey Him we obey Torah.
So the person who eats or wears kosher is doing something that is righteous, the righteousness of the Law was never taken away. However, those who do not are not in sin because the Law of Moses has been fulfilled perfectly by the Lawmaker Himself and He paid the price for all those who did not/don't/will not, fulfill it perfectly.
His grace bestowed on us. But it is a covenant just like Moses Law is a covenant. Until someone enters into this new covenant through Christ they can't reap the benefits of the new covenant.
If you make a contract with someone and that contract has been fulfilled then it is no longer in effect. Then you make a new contract with that same person the new contract is in effect until it is fulfilled. But that does make the old contract of any less value than after it was fulfilled, it just means that it doesn't still need to be fulfilled.
Romans 7:1-4 This is how I understand it compared to where we stand with the Law of Moses and it's righteousness.
If a spouse dies that marriage covenant has been fulfilled and that leaves the other spouse free to marry another. That doesn't change the fact that the first marriage was a righteous covenant but it does mean that is no longer in effect. If it was than the living spouse would not be free to marry another.
The Law did not die but we died to the Law therefore we are free to enter into a new marriage covenant. How can that be? Because Christ fulfilled that old marriage covenant and died in our place and we die in Him. He did this one time it doesn't need to be done over and over again, not by Him and not by us.
Therefore, it is no longer binding on us. Do we keep fulfilling that old marriage covenant while in a new marriage covenant? I don't believe so.
Christ is the righteousness of all Torah as the Torah Giver and He is in us and we are in Him.
I'll address the rest of your response in a separate post. As far as this one goes, I have given it my best shot for now. So unless you have something different for me to respond to, I rest my case. :nod

 

[Deborah13]

His plan and purpose have never changed, and never will:

"God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose..." (Hebrews 6:17 NASB)

"14 ...to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." (Titus 2:14 NASB)

How he gets it done has. In speaking of the new way of the Holy Spirit to come the prophet said:

19 "Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert. " (Isaiah 43:19 NASB)

:amen

 

[Deborah13]

What rabbical law that they could divorce? Are you saying Moses gave rabbical laws? I'm pretty sure that God gave this commandment for Moses to give to the people. This is what the Pharisees were asking about that Moses said. Jesus didn't disagree with them that Moses had given it to them but it said it wasn't that way in the beginning.
Deu 24:1 `When a man doth take a wife, and hath married her, and it hath been, if she doth not find grace in his eyes (for he hath found in her nakedness of anything), and he hath written for her a writing of divorce, and given it into her hand, and sent her out of his house,
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

I think he did. He was entitled to do that. And those rabbinical judgments were in fact binding on the people...

Please show me were God gave Moses the authority to make laws and give me a couple of examples of where Moses did that.
I believe Moses and the Pharisees had the authority to judge whether someone was obeying the Laws that God had given to Moses to give by decree to the people.

2

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.

They sat in Moses seat which meant they were given the authority to teach and interrupt the Law of Moses and the Prophets, not make up their own laws.

3

So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
(Matthew 23:2-4 NIV)

Jesus was telling them to obey whatever they instruct you about the Law of Moses and the Prophets. Not to do what they do, such as the law of Korban, which Jesus said was breaking the commandment to honor ones parents. Korbin is not in Moses' Law.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Jesus could not have been telling them to obey things like Korban or washings of hands and pots, etc. that the Pharisees came up with. He would have been telling them to break the Law in doing Korban and He and the apostles who did not wash their hands before eating would not have been obeying what the Pharisees had instructed. He wouldn't tell them to obey the Pharisees in hand washing and then not make them do it.
And phylacteries? Where did Moses tell them to tie boxes to their arm and head? But Jesus didn't criticize them for the phylacteries, that is how they interpreted that law but He did for their showing off.

Which explains the significance of being released from those judgments when the law they were based on ceased to be the literal covenant between God and his people. The rabbinical authorities were stripped of their authority. And because most of them after Moses were buffoons, they and their stupid, legalistic, misguided judgments were made a spectacle by the cross (Colossians 2:15-16 NASB).

This is what I believe about these verses...
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
What were the Jews and us judged by and found to be transgressors of man's laws or God's laws? Who did we trespass against man or God? This verse may be speaking only of sacrificial ordinances which the Gentiles did have beginning with the Adamic covenant of works. Or the handwriting of debt that we all had against us. But it cannot be ordinances of men which we were never judged to be trespassing against for our justification.
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
The principalities and powers in this verse are all things that are the enemy of Christ and therefore us. This is not speaking of the laws of God. It is speaking of governments, kings, authorities etc. and their powers against Him. Whether it be from Jewish leaders, the Romans, the people who speak against Him today they have no power. And the power of satan, as we know from Genesis He would bruise satan's head, his power over death and us.
Gen 3:15 and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee--the head, and thou dost bruise him--the heel.'

Maybe he did. I have no problem with dat.

Maybe God gave the Law of Moses to Moses?

Then really what you're pointing out here is that Moses did not give the green light on divorce as it is commonly believed, since adultery has been universally understood to be legitimate grounds for divorce anyway, and that Jesus is suggesting that the person who divorces their spouse for infidelity according to the command he gave Moses is allowed to do so but only because of hardness of heart, but really that is not the way it's supposed to be(?) I dunno. What do you think?

No I wasn't making a statement about divorce that is a different subject. My point was that God gave that law to Moses and Moses gave it to the people, he was the one who decreed it. So just because something says it was a decree, dogma, it doesn't mean that it didn't come from God and if it says ordinance the same. In the OT God said His commands and statutes rather than as the Greek says commandments and ordinances that were/are decreed (publically spoken) by men, such as Moses and the apostles.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Lev 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show me were God gave Moses the authority to make laws and give me a couple of examples of where Moses did that.

Not make laws, make judgments. Exodus 18.

 

[Deborah13]

Not make laws, make judgments. Exodus 18.

Yes, judgements based on the Law. There wasn't anything in the law that said he couldn't assign lower judges under himself that would make judgments, between the people, that were based on the Law.
He set up a legal system much like ours in the US.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I try to explain. :neutral
A law can be righteous but in order for it to be a law there has to be a judgement for breaking that law. The Law of Moses (all of them are righteous) but they no longer carry a judgement for those in Christ.

That's just not true.

"1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1 KJV)

Only when you walk according to the Spirit (love, joy,peace, patience....) are you not under condemnation. And, of course, when we do fail to walk in the Spirit and come under condemnation we ask forgiveness and have the condemnation of that unrighteousness removed.

 

[Deborah13]

That's just not true.

"1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1 KJV)

Only when you walk according to the Spirit (love, joy,peace, patience....) are you not under condemnation. And, of course, when we do fail to walk in the Spirit and come under condemnation we ask forgiveness and have the condemnation of that unrighteousness removed.

There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. The second part of the verse describes what those in Christ are doing...not walking AFTER the flesh but are walking AFTER the Spirit.
I going to dare to say from what I have heard from you that you do not walk AFTER the flesh ever. That does not mean that you never sin but does mean that your heart is in the right place with God and the desire in your heart is for God and therefore, you are walking AFTER the Spirit. You are running the race in the right direction after the Spirit which leads to eternal life not after the flesh that leads to death.

 

[chessman]

I going to dare to say from what I have heard from you that you do not walk AFTER the flesh ever ... you are walking AFTER the Spirit. You are running the race in the right direction after the Spirit which leads to eternal life not after the flesh that leads to death.

Just don't look at his acting career