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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?
Jethro Bodine
Member
"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness..." (Titus 3:5 NASB)
Abraham did lots of deeds in righteousness, yet none of them made him righteous. Paul says, not even our deeds done in righteousness are why we are saved. Our faith apart from works--even works done in righteous--does that all by itself.
chessman
Member
In Roms 12:21 it's the same root word, just not in the same tense as is used in the 1John verse I mentioned and asked you to reconcile with your doctrine.
The first occurence is
- νικῶ nikō conquer; overcome; prevail
verb, present, passive, imperative, second person, singular
- νίκα nika conquer; overcome; prevail
verb, present, active, imperative, second person, singular
- νενικήκατε nenikēkate conquer; overcome; prevail
verb, perfect, active, indicative, second person, plural
View attachment 6206
The only thing that saves us is our obedient response to the Gospel.
The only thing that made Abraham righteous was his obedience to God when God told him to do something.
The thing that brought death upon all mankind was disobedience/unbelief by Adam.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Romans 5:12
(Edit, A&T Guidelines: "You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer." This includes not answering to your satisfaction. Obadiah)
JLB
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Jethro Bodine
Member
You honestly can't see in what you posted that Perfect Tense does not categorically mean never ending and will always be the way it is right now?
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Jethro Bodine
Member
(Removed. Response to a deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)
What you have yet to explain is how your doctrine can say Noah (or Abraham) was saved on the basis of his deeds done in righteousness in complete contradiction to Paul that said we are NOT saved on the basis of deeds done in righteousness (Titus 3:5 NASB)
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(Edit, A&T Guidelines: "You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer." Obadiah)
Like the scripture teaches us in Hebrews about Noah, the Gospel requires that we obey the Gospel message.
Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
Those who believe and are Baptised will be saved. Mark 16.
(A&T guidelines:Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Citing an entire chapter does not satisfy this requirement. You need to cite the relative verses that apply to the point you are making. Obadiah)
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Deborah13
Member
That's it!
chessman
Member
That's correct.
As the NT Greek instructor I referenced points out:
"If you remember that the meaning of the word perfect is complete, then you can remember that the perfect tense has to do with completed action. But the perfect tense is a primary tense because it emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action."
With this instruction in mind read what John says to these believers;
1 John 2:14 (LEB) ...I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God resides in you, and you have conquered the evil one.
(Edit, A&T Guidelines: "You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer." This includes not answering to your satisfaction. Obadiah)
Apply/test your hypothesis (men can loose their salvation under this New Covenant, yes or no?) to this passage. How can these young men (not to mention The Word of God residing in them) later become defeated by evil yet John be right about them having conquered evil completly already?
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Jethro Bodine
Member
...up to the present.
That hardly guarantees the action must continue forever, and ever, and ever with no possibility of ending.
"I have lit the candle."
Greek Perfect Tense does NOT mean the candle will continue to be lit forever and ever and ever. It means 1) completed action, with 2) continuing results. When the candle burns up the completed action will no longer have continuing results. The Greek Perfect Tense does NOT mean the candle will burn forever with no hope or possibility of ever going out. The object of the verb determines if the action will continue into the future, or not.
Please, stop these armchair Greek studies, lol.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Here, let me refresh your memory:
Okay, now that we got that out of the way, maybe you can find time to finally respond to this(?):
What you have yet to explain is how your doctrine can say Noah (or Abraham) was saved on the basis of his deeds done in righteousness in complete contradiction to Paul that said we are NOT saved on the basis of deeds done in righteousness (Titus 3:5 NASB)
Note that 'deeds done in righteousness' can not mean your definition of works of the law--for they are deeds done in righteousness, not deeds done in the un-righteousness of fleshly effort.
Also, if you're going to use baptism as an example of a non-law deed that somehow evades Paul's explanation that righteous deeds do not save, but baptism does, the scriptures themselves refer to baptism as a righteous deed:
13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."
(Matthew 3:13-15 NASB)
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LOL.
Like I said, you never answered my question. I don't know what that was but it was not an answer to my question.
No where is Noah mentioned. My question concerns the scripture about Noah, and the faith he demonstrated when he built the Ark, in obedience to God.
Here is my question.
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7
Based on this scripture, was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?
A. They were saved by what Noah did?
B. They were saved by what God said?
JLB
Again, we are saved by our obedience to the Gospel.
We are justified, or declared to be righteous, like Abraham and Noah when we obey His Voice, which is the obedience of faith.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7
and again -
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8
The point I am making is "by faith" means that they obeyed.
The law of faith contains the foundational element of obedience.
When we see faith in the New Testament, is doesn't somehow eliminate the law of God, but rather establishes it by the work of obedience.
The law of faith involves obedience to God, by Whom faith comes.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Please answer the question concerning Noah, from the scripture in Hebrews.
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7
Based on this scripture, was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?
A. They were saved by what Noah did?
B. They were saved by what God said?
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
I did answer it. Now I want you to clarify for me whether Noah was made righteous by what he did, or not. This should not be hard for you.
Somewhere along the line you're going to have to start distinguishing between justification and salvation itself. Do you know the difference? If you're like most in the church you prolly think they are synonomous with each other. They are not. So my question is, are you saying Noah was justified (made righteous) by what he did? Here's your chance to clarify your doctrine. Don't blow it.
You have not answered my question, but only dodged it my saying that I should ask a different question.
Either Noah's family was saved by what God said, or they were saved by what Noah did.
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7
Based on this scripture, was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?
A. They were saved by what Noah did?
B. They were saved by what God said?
Are people saved by what a sent one preaches, or are they saved by obeying the Gospel message?
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9
Are they saved when the message is preached, or are they saved when they choose to believe and confess with their mouth.
The action of confessing with the mouth is the obedient expression of believing.
Noah's act of obeying God and moving with godly fear and preparing the Ark, is his obedient act of believing.
It is the obedience of faith. It is the work of obedience that James says marks a "living" faith, not a dead faith without the work of obedience.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
JLB
Deborah13
Member
Correct me if I am wrong....up to the present.
That hardly guarantees the action must continue forever, and ever, and ever with no possibility of ending.
"I have lit the candle."
Greek Perfect Tense does NOT mean the candle will continue to be lit forever and ever and ever. It means 1) completed action, with 2) continuing results. When the candle burns up the completed action will no longer have continuing results. The Greek Perfect Tense does NOT mean the candle will burn forever with no hope or possibility of ever going out. The object of the verb determines if the action will continue into the future, or not.
Please, stop these armchair Greek studies, lol.
Depending on the intention of the speaker is how the verb tense is chosen and written.
In your example "I had lit the candle." the object being the candle which cannot burn forever, the speaker/writer would not use the perfect tense. I think the correct tense would be the pluperfect, indicating that there was a possibility and in your example more than a possibility, that the action was perfect at the time that it occurred but not sure of continuing.
I not trained in Greek so I'm just asking.
Sinthesis
Member
If Noah and his family were saved by what Noah did, instead of what God did, then who needs God? This is a works theology that conflicts with the Gospel. Preparing an ark is no different than preparing a sacrificial lamb on preparation day. Neither work can save, but only demonstrates faith in God who saves. The Gospel Truth is that as Christians we are already saved, so our works can be directed at bringing others to salvation rather than being focused on ourselves.
chessman
Member
Incorrect. In your example/analogy, the completed verb/action in the perfect tense is the action of YOU lighting the candle, not that of the burning of the candle. The candle could burn out in 5 minutes, 5 years or never if someone else kept adding wick and oxygen. It doesnt change the fact that you have lit it. In fact in your statement "I have lit the candle" you could immediately fall asleep and it not change the fact that you had lit the candle.
In the verse I quoted the verb is have conquered. The completed action/verb is to have conquered evil. In the same form as Jesus has conquered the world.
On your view, they live the rest of their lives with the possibility of not having actually completed the action of conquering evil. Evil could later conquer them. Which would contradict the Text, if it happens.
On my view, the completed action is that of having conquered evil. Which is what the Text says.
. LOL at you laughing out loud at me.Please, stop these armchair Greek studies, lol.
But no, thanks to your request. The authors of the NT wrote it in NT Greek. Variuos NT Greek scholars have made their instructions in NT Greek available to us for OUR education. Therefore, I'll be continuing to study NT Greek, from my armchair, until I have conquered it.