What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Jethro Bodine]

Huh??? Did you not even read the verse you just quoted?

Brother, the measure/test of justifying faith is if Jesus Christ is in you (or not). Which has about as much to do with how much work we do as I had with New England's super bowl win this year.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? ​

You answer Paul's question then. How do you test to see if you have the Holy Spirit inside of you? Just saying you do obviously is not taking a test to see if you have the Holy Spirit inside of you.

And again, please bring this around to the subject of the law of Moses. If you want to rock the hobby horse of OSAS, you should prolly start another thread.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Back to topic....

As we see in James, the works of the law are how we know if we have the faith that justifies:

"12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. (Leviticus 19:18 NASB--see context)
13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body (that is, doesn't 'do' Deuteronomy 15:7-8 NASB ), what use is that (toward justification--see context)?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works (of the law concerning orphans, favoritism, etc.), is dead, being by itself."
(James 2:12-17 NASB parentheticals mine)

But popular teaching in the church has interpreted Paul's 'not under the law anymore' teaching to mean that faith doesn't have to show in your obedience in order for that faith to be considered the faith that justifies. That's the equivalent of saying Abraham did not also have to sacrifice Isaac on the altar in order for him to be considered as having the faith that justifies apart from works. Many, many, many people are being led astray by this teaching. But that is God's plan. Ultimately, he is sorting out the wheat from the chaff--those who will love the truth and will have the faith that saves (that is, the faith that works), and those who will not.

 

[chessman]

please bring this around to the subject of the law of Moses

Okay.

What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

After just quoting from the Law of Moses (Deut 19:15, two or three witnesses are needed) Paul says this:

2 Corinthians 13:1 (LEB) This is the third time I am coming to you. "Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses". ...

2 Corinthians 13:4-8 (LEB) For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.
​

[It is indeed a fact. Even a believer is weak (think about my original question to you; how much work dies it take?), yet will live with Him because of the power of God.]

Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—
​

[No wonder it took His crucifixion to save us and His power to overcome our weakness. Even a Christian is disobedient/weak at times. Think about Peter's three denials. Or for that matter, Noah's drunkeness.]

, even though we may appear unapproved.
​

[Appearing unapproved (Think James 2) isn't even the true test of salvation. The true test is indeed whether Jesus Christ is in you. The Word never fails indeed, even if we are weak.]

 

[chessman]

You answer Paul's question then. How do you test to see if you have the Holy Spirit inside of you? Just saying you do ...

The test is if Jesus Christ is in you. You continue to misrepresent what Paul says in the verse.

Plus, I don't just say I do, I know I do. How do I know I do, because I confess The Son (and rely totally on The Son's work for my salvation too):

1 John 2:20, 23 (LEB) And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. ... the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
​

And to tie this in to the OP proper:

Exodus 29:7 (LEB) And you (Moses) will take the anointing oil and pour it on his (Aaron's) head and anoint him.
​

Imagine that. Moses, the man, anoiting Aaron with oil under that Old Law, yet The Holy One Himself anoiting us with Jesus Christ under the new and better Law.

 

[Deborah13]

The work of God is to believe.

We understand from James that believing by itself is also done by demons, and they fear and tremble.JLB

Yes, the demons know exactly who Jesus is Lord of Lord, King of Kings, the Son of God who came in the flesh and was found to be righteous as He walked with His Father in perfection.
They do believe the truth and that truth includes this.....
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; .....
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Their lord has been judged to be unrighteous and therefore they too are judged to be unrighteous.

We believe that same Jesus is our Lord, the righteous One, and therefore we too are judged to be righteous,in Him.

It was Noah's faith, believing that what his Lord had told him was the truth, that caused him to build the ark and be saved from the flood waters.

 

[chessman]

Your doctrine automatically thinks 'conquering the evil one' means forever

Actually, no I don't automatically think the word 'conquerd' means forever. I studied it and I found out that it indeed means forever. Just like it seems to. Here's why:

The word is νικάω
1. Its tense is perfect in the Greek. Which if you are not aware, means it's an ongoing, completed result. A done deal.
2. It's the same word Jesus uses for what He's done already.

John 16:33 (LEB) I have said these things to you so that in me you may have peace. In the world you have affliction, but have courage! I have conquered the world.” ​

 

[Deborah13]

And to tie this in to the OP proper:

Exodus 29:7 (LEB) And you (Moses) will take the anointing oil and pour it on his (Aaron's) head and anoint him.
​

Imagine that. Moses, the man, anoiting Aaron with oil under that Old Law, yet The Holy One Himself anoiting us with Jesus Christ under the new and better Law.

Thanks for this, I had not thought of it before as an anointing in connection with the law.
I will state this just a little differently, too.
God raised up and anointed Moses as the mediator of His old covenant with the people, Moses anointed Aaron as a priest with the holy oil and the blood from the altar.
Lev 8:30 And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which was upon the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.

God anointed and raised up Jesus as the mediator of His new covenant with the people, Jesus anoints us as priests with the Holy Spirit and His blood from the altar.
Speaking of Yeshua.....
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
I propose that the oil of gladness is this Holy Spirit.
I think we see type and anti-type.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the demons know exactly who Jesus is Lord of Lord, King of Kings, the Son of God who came in the flesh and was found to be righteous as He walked with His Father in perfection.
They do believe the truth and that truth includes this.....
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; .....
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Their lord has been judged to be unrighteous and therefore they too are judged to be unrighteous.

We believe that same Jesus is our Lord, the righteous One, and therefore we too are judged to be righteous,in Him.

It was Noah's faith, believing that what his Lord had told him was the truth, that caused him to build the ark and be saved from the flood waters.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Noah and his family were saved by Noah's obedience to to do the work of building the ark.

If Noah believed that God would flood the world, and didn't do the work of moving with godly fear and do the work of building the Ark, then his deasd faith would have caused the destruction of himself and his family.

Noah's obedience of faith resulted in saving himself and his family.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household.

saving of his household...


JLB

 

[JLB]

Neither! Noah and his family were saved by what God did. God caused the flood, and God made provision which would keep Noah and his family from the consequences of the flood.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Where in this scripture does it say that God built the Ark, sir?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I know. That's my point. Just like those young men did that John wrote to and about. Thus per John, they remain forever. Else, they hadn't really conquered the evil one.

Your anti-OSAS idea has them inflicting temporary damage to the evil one and remaining temporarily. Not conquering the evil one and remaining forever. Odd really.

here is what I wrote -

the one who does the will of God, is the one who acts in obedience.

It's almost as you didn't read what I said. There is nothing in this statement concerning anything what so ever that you stated.


JLB

 

[JLB]

To keep this discussion in the context of the law of Moses, popular doctrine, energized by the misunderstanding that 'not being under the law anymore' means you don't have to have an obedient faith to be saved, leads people astray into a false hope that the faith in Christ that justifies (makes one righteous before God) is the faith that doesn't have to change you into a person who is now being characterized, more and more, by the new nature, but is a faith that can leave you unchanged and disobedient and it's still the faith that justifies. As I've been showing, that's not what the Bible says.

On this I believe we agree. Very well said!

 

[JLB]

C. They were saved from the flood by The Ark.

This is an example of the obedience of faith

Did God build the Ark, or did Noah move with godly fear and build the Ark?


Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

B. They were saved by what God said?


I believe we can honestly say that Noah and his family were saved by what Noah did, and continued to do faithfully for 120 years, to the very end until the Ark was fully built.

The faith that was imparted to Noah, also came with the grace to build the Ark.

From my understanding of the scriptures grace is the power and ability and the favor of God bestowed upon us to do what we can not do in and of ourselves.

I believe that the grace of God contains the wisdom and knowledge and understanding as well as the ability to do what God has told us to do.

To me, Noah is an example, to us, upon whom the end of the age has come.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

To keep this discussion in the context of the law of Moses, popular doctrine, energized by the misunderstanding that 'not being under the law anymore' means you don't have to have an obedient faith to be saved, leads people astray into a false hope that the faith in Christ that justifies (makes one righteous before God) is the faith that doesn't have to change you into a person who is now being characterized, more and more, by the new nature, but is a faith that can leave you unchanged and disobedient and it's still the faith that justifies. As I've been showing, that's not what the Bible says.

I don't agree. The doctrine of "longer being under the law" is speaking of the Law of Moses, the old covenant laws.
But that does not leave us a 'lawless' people under the new covenant which has law. Paul makes it very clear.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under law (Law of Moses), as under law (Law of Moses), that I might gain them that are under law (Law of Moses);
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law (Law of Moses), as without law (Law of Moses), (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law (Law of Moses).
Ahh....in the OP.....No the Law of YHVH is not in reality the Law of Moses, but the Law of Christ.
Paul clearly says that he was not lawless without the Law of Moses, but was under the Law of Christ (new covenant law).
It is only when we receive an incorrect teaching of 'we are not under the law' that people believe they have no law at all. They are under the Law of Christ.

Jesus gave us two that are rather like the 10 Commandments. The apostles clearly give descriptions as to how they will be carried out both the positive and the negative, just like the Law of Moses, the old covenant is laid out. The construction of the new covenant is very much the same but does not contain all the same laws.
But there is another difference that is more important to us.
The Law of Moses, being a covenant of works, says IF you do this, THEN I will do this, IF you don't, I will curse you.
But, as you pointed out so well, Abram was declared righteous before he performed any works.
We see that God made the promise to Abram before he even responded to God in faith the very first time. But if Abram hadn't gotten out of the country (the world) the promise could not have taken effect. Basically God is telling Abram to trust Him and He will bless Him.
Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Here God says that Abram's reward is YHVH Himself.
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
This sounds like the new covenant to me.

 

[JLB]

Ahh....in the OP.....No the Law of YHVH is not in reality the Law of Moses, but the Law of Christ.

Yes, this scripture should be clear to all concerning the topic of this thread.

The new Living Translation says it this way -

20 When I am with the Jews, I become one of them so that I can bring them to Christ. When I am with those who follow the Jewish laws, I do the same, even though I am not subject to the law, so that I can bring them to Christ.
21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.1 Corinthians 9:20-21

Even more clarity from this version.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Law of Moses, being a covenant of works, says IF you do this, THEN I will do this, IF you don't, I will curse you.

It's just that simple!

But, as you pointed out so well, Abram was declared righteous before he performed any works.

Actually what was said was Abraham was declared righteous, before he was circumcised.

10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:10-13

... but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The steps of faith always include the work of obedience.
Faith without this work of obedience is dead.

Consider from the beginning when Abraham was called...

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

This was the beginning of the righteous walk of faith for Abraham.

1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. Genesis 12:1-2

Now if Abraham would have stayed in his own country, with his family, and not gone out to the land God had called him to, then there would be no great nation coming from him.

That would be unbelief which is the same word as disobedience.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Abraham was declared righteous because he obeyed God by faith, and not before.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Neither! Noah and his family were saved by what God did. God caused the flood, and God made provision which would keep Noah and his family from the consequences of the flood. Of secondary importance is the mechanism of God's provision because God could always have chosen progressively more supernatural ways to save Noah. However, the particular way God chose to save Noah and his family involved both faith and works on their part, and succeeded because they had faith in what they were told, and they followed through on that belief with the work consistant with their belief.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Where in this scripture does it say that God built the Ark, sir?


JLB

I never said God built the ark. I said God saved Noah. The ark could never have saved Noah in spite of God, but God could have saved Noah without the ark.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul clearly says that he was not lawless without the Law of Moses, but was under the Law of Christ (new covenant law).
It is only when we receive an incorrect teaching of 'we are not under the law' that people believe they have no law at all. They are under the Law of Christ.

Then I guess what people misunderstand is what it means to be under the law of Christ (the law of Moses fulfilled in the new way of faith in Christ).

To many, many Christians it means 'no law' in the sense that they don't have to obey anything because salvation is not by works, and if they do obey that's great, but obedience is something that may or may not happen and has no bearing on salvation and so doesn't matter. A very misguided and deceitful doctrine that is sifting the wheat from the chaff the way God intends for it to do.

 

[chessman]

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Matthew 19:29 (LEB) And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields on account of my name will receive a hundred times as much, and will inherit eternal life.(in a new land)
​

Amazing!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually, no I don't automatically think the word 'conquerd' means forever. I studied it and I found out that it indeed means forever. Just like it seems to. Here's why:

The word is νικάω
1. Its tense is perfect in the Greek. Which if you are not aware, means it's an ongoing, completed result. A done deal.
2. It's the same word Jesus uses for what He's done already.

John 16:33 (LEB) I have said these things to you so that in me you may have peace. In the world you have affliction, but have courage! I have conquered the world.” ​

If the perfect tense categorically by definition means irreversible then I'm curious why Paul exhorts us to not be overcome by evil--Romans 12:21 NASB (you say 'overcome/conquered' means forever).

I'm confident that it is the object of the verb itself that determines if the perfect tense being used in regard to a completed action means that action is irreversible and never ending.

 

[JLB]

I never said God built the ark. I said God saved Noah. The ark could never have saved Noah in spite of God, but God could have saved Noah without the ark.

Could have??? LOL.

I am discussing what the scripture actually says, not speculation.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Based on this scripture, and specifically the phrase that says prepared an ark for the saving of his household, Noah and his family was saved by Noah's obedience to move with godly fear and build the Ark.

Therefore Noah and his family were saved by what Noah did, and not what God said.

Noah was divinely warned of things to come and obeyed to the saving of his household.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household.

Same principle of the law of faith applies to the Gospel.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, or you will likewise perish.

Obey the Gospel and repent or you will perish with Satan your lord.


JLB