What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

If Noah and his family were saved by what Noah did, instead of what God did, then who needs God?

Noah obeyed what God told him to do.

God forewarned Noah of the flood.

Neither work can save, but only demonstrates faith in God who saves.

Faith from God requires the work of obedience.

Faith without works is dead and can not save.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Faith all by itself is dead!

Please read these words, carefully.

The works is the effort that obedience requires.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham was justified by works, not by faith alone.

Here is another example:

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

It is the work of obedience that justifies, not faith all by itself.


That is why the scripture says, to obey is better than sacrifice... 1 Samuel 15:22


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, there are several places in scripture that refer to a person being saved by doing something--1 Timothy 2:15, for example. What you are evading is telling us if this means that what they did made them righteous (justified them).

What I am in disagreement with you about, if I understand you correctly, is your assertion that the obedience itself is what justifies a person, that is, makes them righteous. You've been using James 2:21 NASB as your defense, insisting that James is using 'justified' in the exact same way and meaning Paul does in Romans.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

So, let's stay on the topic we were discussing and answer my question so we can all be sure to understand your doctrine correctly. Good grief, I wish people would give me an open invitation to explain my doctrine! Don't pass up this chance:

Was Noah made righteous (justified) by his obedience to build an ark and then get into it, or not? And was Abraham made righteous (justified) by his obedience to offer Isaac up on the altar, or not?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Correct me if I am wrong.
Depending on the intention of the speaker is how the verb tense is chosen and written.

Certainly. In Greek, if you want to convey the idea that an action has occurred and is completed, with results following that remain up to the present you would use the Perfect Tense verb.

The point with the Perfect Tense is that the results following the action remain up to the present. That hardly means they will continue into the future, only that they are at present still remaining. When John said the young men have overcome the evil one that is exactly what he meant--they overcame the evil one, and that overcoming remains to that point in time. It does not imply that it will, and must, continue on forever and ever, only that it has happened and continues to date.

In your example "I had lit the candle." the object being the candle which cannot burn forever, the speaker/writer would not use the perfect tense.

Wrong. Part of the definition of Perfect Tense is that the action is already completed. "I have lit the candle". The candle has indeed been lit. That part of the Perfect Tense has been satisfied. The other thing that has to be true to use the Perfect Tense to describe the candle being lit is that it is still lit UP TO THE PRESENT. These two things being true is when and why an author would use, in the Greek language, the Perfect Tense.

I think the correct tense would be the pluperfect, indicating that there was a possibility and in your example more than a possibility, that the action was perfect at the time that it occurred but not sure of continuing.
I not trained in Greek so I'm just asking.

I don't see that. Read this:

"The pluperfect is a seldom-used tense related to the perfect. It occurs only 86 times in the New Testament, and most Greek teachers spend little time on it. But to be complete, here is an explanation:

The pluperfect has the same meaning as the perfect tense, except that it only brings the results of an action up to a selected time in the past. The perfect tense, in contrast, brings the results all the way up to the present.

While perfect tense is usually translated "I have believed," pluperfect is translated "I had believed." If I want to tell you that I have memorized the Greek alphabet and I still remember it well enough to pass a quiz today, the perfect tense is the best choice to use. On the other hand, suppose I have not studied Greek recently. I probably could not pass a quiz today, but I got a really good score on the quiz I took last month. The pluperfect is the tense of choice for that idea: "When I took the quiz last month, I had learned the Greek alphabet perfectly."

http://ezraproject.com/id27.html
​

You can see the result following the completed action does in fact continue past the completion of the action. Which is the same as the Greek Perfect Tense. But in the case of Pluperfect Tense the result following the historically completed action stopped somewhere in the past, before the present, but still after the completion of the action. In contrast, the Perfect Tense differs in that the result following is still following up to the present, and is not a result following that ceased in the past.

So there is no element of possibly stopping in the pluperfect tense. The result following the action has indeed already stopped, but definitely had been an ongoing result of the action, like in the Perfect Tense, but up to a point in the past, not an ongoing result existing in the present as in the Perfect Tense.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Incorrect. In your example/analogy, the completed verb/action in the perfect tense is the action of YOU lighting the candle, not that of the burning of the candle. The candle could burn out in 5 minutes, 5 years or never if someone else kept adding wick and oxygen. It doesnt change the fact that you have lit it.

Right. The fact that I lit the candle is a historical fact. The action is completed. That is the first part of the definition of the Greek Perfect Tense--the action has been completed.

Now what has to be true in order for someone in the Greek language to use the Perfect Tense to describe the lighting of the candle is that the candle is still lit up to this moment in time. Nothing is implied by the tense that the candle will continue to burn forever and ever, and must continue to burn forever and ever, only that it continues to burn at this present time after it got lit. The perfect tense is used to simply convey that 1) the action is complete (the candle was lit), and 2) the action has results following that, at present, remain (the candle remains lit at this present time).

http://ezraproject.com/id27.html

 

[Deborah13]

Certainly. In Greek, if you want to convey the idea that an action has occurred and is completed, with results following that remain up to the present you would use the Perfect Tense verb.

The point with the Perfect Tense is that the results following the action remain up to the present. That hardly means they will continue into the future, only that they are at present still remaining. When John said the young men have overcome the evil one that is exactly what he meant--they overcame the evil one, and that overcoming remains to that point in time. It does not imply that it will, and must, continue on forever and ever, only that it has continued to date.



Wrong. Part of the definition of Perfect Tense is that the action is already completed. "I have lit the candle". The candle has indeed been lit. That part of the Perfect Tense has been satisfied. The other thing that has to be true to use the Perfect Tense to describe the candle being lit is that it is still lit UP TO THE PRESENT. These two things being true is when and why an author would use, in the Greek language, the Perfect Tense.


I don't see that. Read this:

"The pluperfect is a seldom-used tense related to the perfect. It occurs only 86 times in the New Testament, and most Greek teachers spend little time on it. But to be complete, here is an explanation:

The pluperfect has the same meaning as the perfect tense, except that it only brings the results of an action up to a selected time in the past. The perfect tense, in contrast, brings the results all the way up to the present.

While perfect tense is usually translated "I have believed," pluperfect is translated "I had believed." If I want to tell you that I have memorized the Greek alphabet and I still remember it well enough to pass a quiz today, the perfect tense is the best choice to use. On the other hand, suppose I have not studied Greek recently. I probably could not pass a quiz today, but I got a really good score on the quiz I took last month. The pluperfect is the tense of choice for that idea: "When I took the quiz last month, I had learned the Greek alphabet perfectly."

http://ezraproject.com/id27.html
​

You can see the result following the completed action does in fact continue past the completion of the action. Tat is the same as the Greek Perfect Tense. But in the case of Pluperfect Tense the result following the historically completed action stopped somewhere in the past before the present, but still after the completion of the action. In contrast, the Perfect Tense differs in that the result following is still following up to the present, and is not a result following that ceased in the past.

So there is no element of possibly stopping in the pluperfect tense. The result following the action has indeed already stopped, but definately had been an ongoing result of the action up to that point in the past.

Duh....I am sorry I wasted your time. I thought your example said 'I had lit the candle.' Just checked your post and mine.
But not totally wasted for me, I keep learning. I didn't understand the pluperfect as being all in the past. Thanks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Duh....I am sorry I wasted your time. I thought your example said 'I had lit the candle.' Just checked your post and mine.
But not totally wasted for me, I keep learning. Thanks.

You rock. And don't let anyone tell you different. :wink

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, I learn from you, too, sis. Because of your contribution I articulate the idea of the 'righteousness of the law' a little better than I used to. One day I might even get it completely right.

 

[Deborah13]

Oh, I learn from you, too, sis. Because of your contribution I articulate the idea of the 'righteousness of the law' a little better than I used to. One day I might even get it completely right.

Maybe one day we both will before we literally sit at the Savior feet.

 

[JLB]

JLB, there are several places in scripture that refer to a person being saved by doing something--1 Timothy 2:15, for example. What you are evading is telling us if this means that what they did made them righteous (justified them).

What I am in disagreement with you about, if I understand you correctly, is your assertion that the obedience itself is what justifies a person, that is, makes them righteous. You've been using James 2:21 NASB as your defense, insisting that James is using 'justified' in the exact same way and meaning Paul does in Romans.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

So, let's stay on the topic we were discussing and answer my question so we can all be sure to understand your doctrine correctly. Good grief, I wish people would give me an open invitation to explain my doctrine! Don't pass up this chance:

Was Noah made righteous (justified) by his obedience to build an ark and then get into it, or not? And was Abraham made righteous (justified) by his obedience to offer Isaac up on the altar, or not?

I have never evaded anything.

You on the other have plainly refused to answer a simple question.

When you stop evading this question then and only then I will continue to address your new questions to me.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Based on this scripture, was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

B. They were saved by what God said?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I have never evaded anything.

You on the other have plainly refused to answer a simple question.

When you stop evading this question then and only then I will continue to address your new questions to me.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Based on this scripture, was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

B. They were saved by what God said?


JLB

Their actions originated from God. They were saved by God's grace through faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

No.

B. They were saved by what God said?

No.

When you stop evading this question then and only then I will continue to address your new questions to me.

Done.
Now start addressing....

If I understand you correctly, it is your assertion that the obedience itself is what justifies a person, that is, makes them righteous. You've been using James 2:21 NASB as your defense, insisting that James is using 'justified' in the exact same way and meaning Paul does in Romans.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

So, let's stay on the topic we were discussing (justification) and answer my question so we can all be sure to understand your doctrine correctly.

Was Noah made righteous (justified) by his obedience to build an ark and then get into it, or not? And was Abraham made righteous (justified) by his obedience to offer Isaac up on the altar, or not?

 

[JLB]

Their actions originated from God. They were saved by God's grace through faith.

Yes, I agree.

However, can you see that faith, whether by faith or through faith, means there was the work of obedience involved?

This is the principle of faith that James clearly taught.

Saved by grace through faith means obedience to the primary law of God, that Adam violated.

Not the law of Moses, but the law of God. The law of sin and death.

John says it this way -

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7

Which is another way of saying -

As many as are led by the spirit of God, these are the sons of God. Romans 8:14


JLB

 

[JLB]

No.


No.


Done.
Now start addressing....

If I understand you correctly, it is your assertion that the obedience itself is what justifies a person, that is, makes them righteous. You've been using James 2:21 NASB as your defense, insisting that James is using 'justified' in the exact same way and meaning Paul does in Romans.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

So, let's stay on the topic we were discussing (justification) and answer my question so we can all be sure to understand your doctrine correctly.

Was Noah made righteous (justified) by his obedience to build an ark and then get into it, or not? And was Abraham made righteous (justified) by his obedience to offer Isaac up on the altar, or not?

I answer your question's thoroughly and with scripture, and what I get in return is more and more questions.

If you can't answer a simple question honestly, from the scripture presented then you are afraid of your doctrine being exposed to the light of truth.

It's just that simple.

If you refuse to answer my question, then just say that you would rather not.

I will at that point respect your right to refuse to answer.

But please don't say you have answered the question, and please don't say "this is the question you should be asking", while out of the other side of your mouth, you say you answered the question.

Noah's family was clearly saved.

Are you saying Noah's family wasn't saved from the destruction of the flood.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Based on this scripture, was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

B. They were saved by what God said?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

No. Noah's actions had no power to save a flea. Nobody has the power to earn their own salvation. It can only be given as a gracious gift, not earned as payment for work done.

B. They were saved by what God said?

No. Salvation does not come by what God says. It comes by what you believe to be true about the Son of God.

I have now answered your questions more than once, Friendo. And you said if I stop evading your questions (as if I had been) then you'd answer mine. So I expect you to keep your word. Do what you said you would do. Start answering.

 

[JLB]

No. Noah's actions had no power to save a flea. Nobody has the power to earn their own salvation. It can only be given as a gracious gift, not earned as payment for work done.


No. Salvation does not come by what God says. It comes by what you believe to be true about the Son of God.

I have now answered your questions more than once, Friendo. And you said if I stop evading your questions (as if I had been) then you'd answer mine. So I expect you to keep your word. Do what you said you would do. Start answering.

The phrase saving of his household, refers to saved from the destruction of the flood.

It does not refer to saved, as in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

What clearly saved Noah's family, was Noah's obedience to God.

as it is written -

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household,
Hebrews 11:7

Noah did the work of preparing the Ark, which resulted in the saving of his household.

Noah's family was saved by what Noah did, in obedience to God.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead, and will not save.

as James says -

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

The only thing that saves a person is their obedience to the Gospel.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The phrase saving of his household, refers to saved from the destruction of the flood.

It does not refer to saved, as in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

What clearly saved Noah's family, was Noah's obedience to God.

as it is written -

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household,
Hebrews 11:7

Noah did the work of preparing the Ark, which resulted in the saving of his household.

Noah's family was saved by what Noah did, in obedience to God.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead, and will not save.

as James says -

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

The only thing that saves a person is their obedience to the Gospel.


JLB

Wonderful.

We were talking about justification. So let's get back to justification and how it relates to the law of Moses. Answer my questions as you said you would.

 

[Obadiah]

A&T Guidelines state in part: "You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer." Continued demands of answering questions will be met with official warnings, which can contain infraction points, which can lead to suspensions and bannings. Please don't let this happen!

Obadiah.

 

[JLB]

Wonderful.

We were talking about justification. So let's get back to justification and how it relates to the law of Moses. Answer my questions as you said you would.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Faith by itself, without the action or work of obedience is dead.

The action of obedience by Abraham, that caused him to be justified was the act of offering Issac upon the altar.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Likewise, this principle of faith, is applicable in the salvation of our soul.

Jesus Christ lived and walked before God the father in perfect obedience, do what God told Him to do.

Jesus Christ then as a sinless and spotless Lamb of God was obedient to death on the cross, to pay for our sins, that in believing in Him and this act of obedience to, we ourselves would be cleansed of the unrighteousness of sin, in which we are reconciled back to God.

This work of appropriated the righteousness of Jesus Christ to ourselves is done through faith in Him, and His righteous obedience to God, to be crucified on the cross on our behalf.

This is God's gift to us.

This gift is given to us by faith.

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:8-10

Jesus also said -

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:15-16

and again -

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15 KJV


Then we have these words from the Lord on the Day of Judgement -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; Matthew 25:41-42


Paul says it this way -

...on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10


The law Faith carries with it the element of obedience for it to be a valid "living" faith that will save.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, cut to the chase: So there's no confusion about your doctrine, which does the actual justifying in your doctrine, the faith, or the works? Which one makes you a righteous person before God?

 

[JLB]

JLB, cut to the chase: So there's no confusion about your doctrine, which does the actual justifying in your doctrine, the faith, or the works? Which one makes you a righteous person before God?

WHEN a person obeys the Gospel.

Just exactly like James teaches, in the example of Abraham.

A person can hear the Gospel message, but until they obey it, then what was paid for on the cross by Jesus Christ will not benefit the hearer.

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Acts 3:19

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:9-20,13

A person is required to repent, and confess Jesus as Lord.

Baptism in water is also the act of repentance, in response to the Gospel.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11

and again -

Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance... Matthew 3:8

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." Acts 11:18

This act of obedience shows they believe.

Jesus comes to take vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel... 2 Thessalonians 1:9

Then there is continuing steadfast unto the end, after initial salvation... OSAS or Not?




JLB