What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you are really a OSAS in reality.

How do you explain to someone to continue in the faith, steadfast to the end?


JLB

You're missing the point completely. Your doctrine insists it is the works themselves produced by faith that MAKE you righteous before God. Paul calls that the gospel of earning your justification--something God owes you because you did something righteous. But he explains very clearly that justification is a free gift given apart from the merit of doing righteous works. (Titus 3:5 NASB).

There is no need to go down the OSAS road. You mistakenly think that to be justified by faith all by itself apart from works HAS to mean that you can be saved without having any works. Not even remotely true.

Since works are the obligatory evidence left behind by the faith that justifies all by itself (because if it doesn't leave works behind it's not real faith) it's easy to see that to continue in your faith to the very end will be signified by a lifestyle of overcoming, faithful works to the very end. A cessation of works means a cessation of faith--the faith, alone, that makes you righteous before God. A lack of works means you don't have the faith that all by itself makes you righteous before God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no clean up to it.

How can the 'law of faith' be an actual set of laws that one follows, and not a principle of how to be justified, if it's true that there is no law that can impart righteousness?

"For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. " (Galatians 3:21 NASB)

 

[JLB]

What you're not explaining is how this has to mean that it is our works that make us righteous (that is, justify us).

Abraham was plainly justified WHEN he offered Isaac on the altar.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

...justified by works when he offered Isaac


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your doctrine insists it is the works themselves

The work in my doctrine is obedience.

Please show me a scripture that says a person can be saved by not obeying the gospel.
Obeying the Gospel is the only way to be saved.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:9

...on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or I can just sum up my doctrine with a scripture.

As many as are led by the spirit of God, THESE are the sons of God. Romans 8:14

Where in this scripture do you see those who are disobedient to God, being called sons of God?



Please answer this question -

Consider Noah.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham was plainly justified WHEN he offered Isaac on the altar.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

...justified by works when he offered Isaac


JLB

Hmmm...Paul says Abraham was justified before God by his faith, not his works:

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
(Romans 4:2-4 NASB)

Paul says if you have to work for something it is no longer a gift, but an obligation for work performed.

And if that's not enough, Paul says he was righteous before he obeyed God in circumcision, and that his obedience to circumcision was the sign of the righteousness he already had:

"11 ...he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised" (Romans 4:11 NASB)

...not to mention that he does not even have a son named Isaac at this time that his attempt to sacrifice him is even a consideration as to what justified him.

You say the faith that justified Abraham was the law of faith--that is, a law of commands he obeyed by faith, the works of which justified him. But Paul says it was before he did work by his faith--faith by itself without work--that justified him. How does your doctrine handle this?

What reconciles the two is Paul is talking about justification in terms of being MADE righteous before God, while James is talking about justification in terms of being SHOWN to have the righteousness of God already. Both are necessary to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Not because works somehow MAKE you righteous, but because works of faith are the obligatory consequence of the faith that justifies all by itself--like being wet is the obligatory and necessary consequence of saying you went swimming.

 

[JLB]

Hmmm...Paul says Abraham was justified before God by his faith, not his works:

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
(Romans 4:2-4 NASB)

Paul says if you have to work for something it is no longer a gift, but an obligation for work performed.

And if that's not enough, Paul says he was righteous before he obeyed God in circumcision, and that his obedience to circumcision is the sign of the righteousness he already had:

"11 ...he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised" (Romans 4:11 NASB)

...not to mention that he does not even have a son named Isaac at this time that his attempt to sacrifice him is even a consideration as to what justified him.

You say the faith that justified Abraham was the law of faith--that is, a law of commands he obeyed by faith, the works of which justified him. But Paul says it was before he did work by his faith--faith by itself without work--that justified him. How does your doctrine handle this?

What reconciles the two is Paul is talking about justification in terms of being MADE righteous before God, while James is talking about justification in terms of being SHOWN to have the righteousness of God already. Both are necessary to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Not because works somehow MAKE you righteous, but because they are the obligatory consequence of the faith that justifies all by itself--like being wet is the obligatory and necessary consequence of saying you went swimming.

Again, the work of faith is obedience.

A person must obey the Gospel to be saved.

Very Simple.

Please answer this question concerning Noah.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show me a scripture that says a person can be saved by not obeying the gospel.
Obeying the Gospel is the only way to be saved.

The faith that justifies is the faith that works. That's not the issue in contention here.

What you have to explain why Paul says Abraham was justified BEFORE he did any work--before he was circumcised (Romans 4:10 NASB), and before he offered Isaac up on the altar. That is what is in contention.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, the work of faith is obedience.

A person must obey the Gospel to be saved.

Very Simple.

Please answer this question concerning Noah.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?


JLB

You're asking the wrong question. Here's what is in contention:

Did Noah MAKE himself righteous in God's sight by obeying God? If so, that would make his righteousness a payment God owed him. Righteousness would then no longer be a gift, but a righteousness earned through righteous work. But Paul plainly said we are not saved on the basis of righteous work we have done (Titus 3:5 NASB).

What Noah did was SHOW himself to have the righteousness of God through his faith in God. How do we know he had the faith that justifies? He obeyed God. His obedience SHOWS us that he had faith in God: "...I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

...justified by works when he offered Isaac

It's impossible for this to be the same justification Paul is talking about. If it is, then the Bible has a huge contradiction in it. A perceived contradiction, by the way, that uninformed unbelievers and atheists love to use as their rationalization for not believing the Bible.

 

[chessman]

A lack of works means you don't have the faith that all by itself makes you righteous before God.

A lack of works seen by others means these others have no evidence of a living faith. Luckily, these others do not determine a man's salvation. God does.

But are you aware of any Scripture that would quantify just exactly how much work(s) it takes to mean you do have the faith that all by itself makes you righteous before God?

I am under the doctrinal understanding that God looks at His works (Christ's work specifically) for that and knows the heart of every person (believer in Christ or not). In fact He lives there in the heart (via the Holy Spirit) of believers.

Please don't reference some uninspired, self-interpreted parabolic passage given to the Pharisees.

p.s.

Galatians 5:5-6 (LEB) For through the Spirit by faith ... faith working through love. ​

The faith spoken of by Paul in Gal 5:6 is still the same as 5:5. It is as faithful as the Holy Spirit is. It has not changed.

A cessation of works means a cessation of faith

Can you reconcile your doctrine (a young man that has this saving faith, then losses it by cessation of his works/faith) with these Scriptures?:

1 John 2:14, 17 (LEB) ... I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God resides in you, and you have conquered the evil one. ... the one who does the will of God remains forever.
​

My doctrine, concerning salvation, follows yours up to the point where you claim (as above) that a person who has done God's will (believing in Christ's work) yet in that person the word of God fails to reside in him, fails to have actually conquered the evil one and that young man fails to remain in him forever. I see a conflict with your doctrine and John's here. Can you reconcile your doctrine with John's?

 

[JLB]

It's impossible for this to be the same justification Paul is talking about. If it is, then the Bible has a huge contradiction in it. A perceived contradiction, by the way, that uninformed unbelievers and atheists love to use as their rationalization for not believing the Bible.

No contradiction, just you misunderstanding what is written.

You're asking the wrong question. Here's what is in contention:

Did Noah MAKE himself righteous in God's sight by obeying God? If so, that would make his righteousness a payment God owed him. Righteousness would then no longer be a gift, but a righteousness earned through righteous work. But Paul plainly said we are not saved on the basis of righteous work we have done (Titus 3:5 NASB).

What Noah did was SHOW himself to have the righteousness of God through his faith in God. How do we know he had the faith that justifies? He obeyed God. His obedience SHOWS us that he had faith in God.

I have answered all of your questions, now please answer my question.

Please answer this question concerning Noah.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

B. They were saved by what God said?


JLB

 

[JLB]

the one who does the will of God remains forever.

the one who does the will of God, is the one who acts in obedience.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have answered all of your questions, now please answer my question.

No, you haven't. Paul said Abraham was justified before he did any work:

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
9 ..."FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised..." (Romans 4:2, 9-11 NASB)

How does your doctrine explain Abraham being justified before and apart from his righteous work? And Isaac--the one whom James said Abraham was justified for offering up hasn't even been born at this time that Paul says Abraham was justified.

Please answer this question concerning Noah.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

B. They were saved by what God said?


JLB

We know that a person 'saves themselves' when they have faith that manifests in obedience to God. Paul says this in Galatians 5:6 NASB..."6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love. ". The faith that saves is the faith that works. We are not in contention about this.

What we are in contention about is you say Abraham was justified (MADE righteous) by his works when he offered up Isaac. Paul says he was justified when he believed God before he did any work. Explain how your doctrine handles this apparent contradiction. You have not explained this. By saying James means a person is MADE righteous by their work your doctrine puts James in direct contradiction to Paul who says a person is MADE righteous by faith apart from works.

You say the works that Abraham did not have were works of the law, but it's impossible to ignore the fact that Abraham did not even have a son named Isaac when God declared him righteous by his faith, let alone put him on the altar to be sacrificed, as the work of faith that justified him. So explain these works that Paul says Abraham was justified by. I have explained using scripture how it was his faith, apart from works--even the work of offering up Isaac--that justified him.

 

[chessman]

Hebrews 11:7

Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

B. They were saved by what God said?

JLB

C. They were saved from the flood by The Ark.

But guess what? Noah and the other examples in Heb 11 later died (11:13) with the possible exception of Enoch. Evindently there's more to salvation than being saved from a flood (Noah) or murder (Abel) or old age (Abraham).

The more is, guess Who? Christ, the originator and perfector of faith:

Hebrews 12:2 (LEB) fixing our eyes on Jesus, the originator and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But are you aware of any Scripture that would quantify just exactly how much work(s) it takes to mean you do have the faith that all by itself makes you righteous before God?

The measure of justifying faith is the presence of the new nature. Do you have the work of the Spirit in your life now that you claim you have faith in God? Each man has the responsibility to examine his own life to answer that question:

"5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? " (2 Corinthians 13:5 NASB)

I am under the doctrinal understanding that God looks at His works (Christ's work specifically) for that and knows the heart of every person (believer in Christ or not). In fact He lives there in the heart (via the Holy Spirit) of believers.

You're speaking of our legal righteousness--the official legal declaration of righteousness God's sees when he looks at us. In that regard, he sees Christ's perfect righteousness, not ours. Our righteousness is like a piece of Swiss cheese with all kinds of holes in it that God can see through. Our righteousness wouldn't cover a flea.

We have been given the Holy Spirit as a down payment on a promised perfect righteousness that we will receive at the resurrection, and a righteousness that the Spirit is growing up us into even now. This is the 'hope of righteousness' Paul is talking about in Galatians 5:4 NASB...

"5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)

Until then, we have the legal covering of Christ's perfect righteousness, secured by faith, to ensure our place among the salvation of the righteous, not the unrighteous.

Please don't reference some uninspired, self-interpreted parabolic passage given to the Pharisees.

Ahh, you must mean a parable.....stories that have no value in determining truth. Simply interesting stories to make Jesus look like a wise sage whose words are beyond mere mortal's understanding, completely valueless to mortals.

Can you reconcile your doctrine (a young man that has this saving faith, then losses it by cessation of his works/faith) with these Scriptures?:

1 John 2:14, 17 (LEB) ... I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God resides in you, and you have conquered the evil one. ... the one who does the will of God remains forever.​

What is it that you do not understand? Does all this somehow preclude the requirement to have faith for all these to be true? Is that what you're asking?

​

My doctrine, concerning salvation, follows yours up to the point where you claim (as above) that a person who has done God's will (believing in Christ's work) yet in that person the word of God fails to reside in him, fails to have actually conquered the evil one and that young man fails to remain in him forever. I see a conflict with your doctrine and John's here. Can you reconcile your doctrine with John's?

I was watching for it, but you did not say 'up to the point that person stops having faith'. When the word of God fails to reside in you, and you do not conquer the evil one, and the young man fails to remain in him forever is when that young man stops having faith in the forgiveness of God through Christ.

To keep this discussion in the context of the law of Moses, popular doctrine, energized by the misunderstanding that 'not being under the law anymore' means you don't have to have an obedient faith to be saved, leads people astray into a false hope that the faith in Christ that justifies (makes one righteous before God) is the faith that doesn't have to change you into a person who is now being characterized, more and more, by the new nature, but is a faith that can leave you unchanged and disobedient and it's still the faith that justifies. As I've been showing, that's not what the Bible says.

 

[Sinthesis]

Please answer this question concerning Noah.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?

A. They were saved by what Noah did?

B. They were saved by what God said?


JLB

Neither! Noah and his family were saved by what God did. God caused the flood, and God made provision which would keep Noah and his family from the consequences of the flood. Of secondary importance is the mechanism of God's provision because God could always have chosen progressively more supernatural ways to save Noah. However, the particular way God chose to save Noah and his family involved both faith and works on their part, and succeeded because they had faith in what they were told, and they followed through on that belief with the work consistant with their belief.

 

[chessman]

the one who does the will of God, is the one who acts in obedience.

JLB

I know. That's my point. Just like those young men did that John wrote to and about. Thus per John, they remain forever. Else, they hadn't really conquered the evil one.

Your anti-OSAS idea has them inflicting temporary damage to the evil one and remaining temporarily. Not conquering the evil one and remaining forever. Odd really.

 

[chessman]

Ahh, you must mean a parable

No I mean your personal interpretation of a parable. As I said.

Does all this somehow preclude the requirement to have faith for all these to be true? Is that what you're asking?

No. I'm asking you how John can be telling these young, living, saved men that they have conquered the evil one and remain forever, given your anti-OSAS idea. What if they do as you suggest "stops having faith". Wouldn't that mean John was wrong and they hadn't really conquered the evil one?

When the word of God fails to reside in you, ...

I see how you reconcile it now.

When the word of God fails, we're all in trouble.

 

[chessman]

The measure of justifying faith is the presence of the new nature.

Huh??? Did you not even read the verse you just quoted?

Brother, the measure/test of justifying faith is if Jesus Christ is in you (or not). Which has about as much to do with how much work we do as I had with New England's super bowl win this year.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? ​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No I mean your personal interpretation of a parable. As I said.

No. I'm asking you how John can be telling these young, living, saved men that they have conquered the evil one and remain forever, given your anti-OSAS idea. What if they do as you suggest "stops having faith". Wouldn't that mean John was wrong and they hadn't really conquered the evil one?

Your doctrine is still caught in the trap of OSAS circular reasoning. Your doctrine automatically thinks 'conquering the evil one' means forever, therefore, conquering the evil one proves OSAS.

I see how you reconcile it now.

When the word of God fails, we're all in trouble.

Nice. Twist it to NOT mean when one's faith fails. Real nice....very dishonest.

Maybe you can stop pulling this thread off into OSAS? Or at least keep the OP in the discussion about OSAS? Is that too much to ask there buddy?