What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Deborah13]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Yes we do believe in the above, and also that Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17

 

[Deborah13]

Yes we do believe in the above, and also that Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17

I'm sure you do. Me, too.
If He hadn't I'd still have to follow the Law of Moses rather than the Law of Yeshua. Both are Yehovah's law but one was mediated by a man and the other is mediated by Yeshua Himself, God in the flesh. The Rock, the Redeemer.
That makes a big difference to me.
Moses was man and he died. Yeshua, He is the Risen King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

He rose on the first Sabbath of Pentacost, as the omar is lifted up as the firstfriuts of the harvest, so was He. The firstfruits of the Resurrection. :amen

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I'm sure you do. Me, too.
If He hadn't I'd still have to follow the Law of Moses rather than the Law of Yeshua. Both are Yehovah's law but one was mediated by a man and the other is mediated by Yeshua Himself, God in the flesh. The Rock, the Redeemer.
That makes a big difference to me.
Moses was man and he died. Yeshua, He is the Risen King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

He rose on the first Sabbath of Pentacost, as the omar is lifted up as the firstfriuts of the harvest, so was He. The firstfruits of the Resurrection. :amen

Nisan 17 (Sunday) Yeshua Rose From Dead,

Women visit tomb "When it was yet dark" discover that Jesus has already risen.

Matthew 28:2-10, Mark 16:1-14, Luke 24:1-49, and John 20:2-21.

The above is getting off topic.

 

[JLB]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes.

The law of Moses and the law of faith, have the same weight of balance in common and balance each other.

That common weight of balance is obedience.

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:31

Obedience to do all of the law.

Obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm sure you do. Me, too.
If He hadn't I'd still have to follow the Law of Moses rather than the Law of Yeshua. Both are Yehovah's law but one was mediated by a man and the other is mediated by Yeshua Himself, God in the flesh. The Rock, the Redeemer.
That makes a big difference to me.
Moses was man and he died. Yeshua, He is the Risen King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

He rose on the first Sabbath of Pentacost, as the omar is lifted up as the firstfriuts of the harvest, so was He. The firstfruits of the Resurrection. :amen

:nod

 

[Malachi]

Heb 8:13 in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
What is the 'new'? What is the 'old'? What became obsolete?

That which became obsolete is clearly revealed in the epistle to the Hebrews. Everything connected with the earthly Temple, the earthly Levitical priesthood, the animals sacrifices, and all the laws pertaining to the tithe and the support of the Levites were abolished. This is what the Lamb of God fulfilled in Himself and His sacrifice, and established the priesthood according to the eternal order of Melchizedek. Also, the dietary laws no longer apply, neither the laws pertaining to new moons, sabbaths, and holy days, which are a shadow of things to come.

However, the Ten Commandments were elevated, and the laws pertaining to human relations, morality, and justice are universal and continue to be effective. Furthermore, there were four specific commandments from the Law of Moses which were applicable to both Jews and Gentiles (see Acts 15) and would continue within the Church.

 

[JLB]

However, the Ten Commandments were elevated, and the laws pertaining to human relations, morality, and justice are universal and continue to be effective.

I agree with much of what you posted but probably for a different reason.

The law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, because of trangressions.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
Galatians 3:19

Transgressions, means that the laws and commandments of that covenant, were being transgressed or violated.

The law was added as a "fence" to show the boundaries of the covenant

So, the laws of the Abrahamic Covenant, that were already in place 430 years before the law was added, were certainly still intact when the law of Moses was added to it.

So the entire law of Moses can vanish away, or as Paul says, be abolished, or become obsolete, without affecting the original laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant, which contained the moral laws which you referred to; ie the Ten Commandments.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

I agree with much of what you posted but probably for a different reason.

The law was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, because of trangressions.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
Galatians 3:19

Transgressions, means that the laws and commandments of that covenant, were being transgressed or violated.

The law was added as a "fence" to show the boundaries of the covenant

So, the laws of the Abrahamic Covenant, that were already in place 430 years before the law was added, were certainly still intact when the law of Moses was added to it.

So the entire law of Moses can vanish away, or as Paul says, be abolished, or become obsolete, without affecting the original laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant, which contained the moral laws which you referred to; ie the Ten Commandments.


JLB

What are these 'original laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant'? How do you know?

 

[Malachi]

So the entire law of Moses can vanish away, or as Paul says, be abolished, or become obsolete, without affecting the original laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant, which contained the moral laws which you referred to; ie the Ten Commandments.

And Paul confirms this in Rom 2:11-16 with respect to conscience:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[JLB]

What are these 'original laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant'? How do you know?

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Genesis 26:5

Abraham, received God's laws and commandments, by faith, which is what God had directed Adam to do in the Garden.

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

When God speaks to us His laws and commandments, faith accompanies His Voice.

He has written His laws on our heart.

When we walk with Him in His presence, and hear His Voice, we are given faith that comes by hearing, as His presence empowers us to resist fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

God desires for us to walk with Him and learn from Him, and be taught of Him.

Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That which became obsolete is clearly revealed in the epistle to the Hebrews. Everything connected with the earthly Temple, the earthly Levitical priesthood, the animals sacrifices, and all the laws pertaining to the tithe and the support of the Levites were abolished.

No, not abolished, fulfilled.

When you believed in Christ "everything connected with the earthly Temple", Sabbaths, sacrifices, cleansings, holy days, etc, were marked 'satisfied in Christ'. And because they are satisfied in Christ there is no need for them anymore. They have become obsolete. IOW, simply not needed anymore. Christ accomplished one time for all time what those old things sought to do but couldn't:

1 ...the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, (cannot) make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered?" (Hebrews 10:1-2 NASB)

The point being, they are now stopped because we have been made perfect through Christ, in the same way that if the law itself had made us perfect there would have been no further need to draw near to God through the law. So, with our sins forgiven in the sight of God through our faith in Christ's sacrifice there is no longer any need to offer a Mosaic sacrifice for a sin and separation from God we no longer have:

18 ...where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any (requirement for) sacrifice for sin." (Hebrews 10:18 NASB)

So the author explains how there's no reason for people already brought near to God through faith in Christ to draw near to God through the old obsolete way of the Mosaic temple and priesthood to do that. To think you still have to do that is like saying, 'I have to go to work in my grandpa's '56 Buick' when you've already arrived at work in your '07 Crossfire (I threw that in for Pizza ). That doesn't mean grandpa's '56 Buick has now been abolished. It means it's simply not needed anymore. And it not being needed anymore certainly doesn't mean we can't take the '56 Buick for an occasional Saturday afternoon drive to remind us how good and perfect our new ride to work is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We know from the scriptures that the requirements for things like Sabbath rest, and circumcision, and sacrifices, and Passover, and priesthoods, etc. are eternal requirements of God, not Mosaic ones. The law of Moses was just a temporary WAY to fulfill those requirements. After all, Moses followed the pattern of that which was, and is now, already in heaven when he told the Israelites how to build the temple and how to operate it:

"a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." (Hebrews 8:5 NIV)

My point being, these eternal requirements did not get abolished. They existed before, and during, the law of Moses. And they will exist forever. They are eternal requirements of God for mankind. They will stand forever, not be abolished. Christ, and faith in him fulfills these requirements of God, not abolishes them. What got 'abolished', or rather 'made obsolete', is the WAY these eternal requirements got fulfilled in the law of Moses. That was a temporary way introduced for the people of God to illustrate the realities of these eternal things, and ironically enough, to increase man's need for them. God's a pretty smart cookie.

 

[JLB]

No, not abolished, fulfilled.

When you believed in Christ "everything connected with the earthly Temple", Sabbaths, sacrifices, cleansings, holy days, etc, were marked 'satisfied in Christ'. And because they are satisfied in Christ there is no need for them anymore. They have become obsolete. IOW, simply not needed anymore. Christ accomplished one time for all time what those old things sought to do but couldn't:

1 ...the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, (cannot) make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered?" (Hebrews 10:1-2 NASB)

The point being, they are now stopped because we have been made perfect through Christ, in the same way that if the law itself had made us perfect there would have been no further need to draw near to God through the law. So, with our sins forgiven in the sight of God through our faith in Christ's sacrifice there is no longer any need to offer a Mosaic sacrifice for a sin and separation from God we no longer have:

18 ...where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any (requirement for) sacrifice for sin." (Hebrews 10:18 NASB)

So the author explains how there's no reason for people already brought near to God through faith in Christ to draw near to God through the old obsolete way of the Mosaic temple and priesthood to do that. To think you still have to do that is like saying, 'I have to go to work in my grandpa's '56 Buick' when you've already arrived at work in your '07 Crossfire (I threw that in for Pizza ). That doesn't mean grandpa's '56 Buick has now been abolished. It means it's simply not needed anymore. And it not being needed anymore certainly doesn't mean we can't take the '56 Buick for an occasional Saturday afternoon drive to remind us how good and perfect our new ride to work is.

As always, you make some very good points, and explain things well.

However, the scriptures do say that the law was abolished, because it was fulfilled.

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18

Main point here:

1.] Jesus stated that He came to fulfill the Law and Prophets, which "Law" here is a reference to the Torah.
Contained within the Torah, was the law of Moses that was added to it [The Abrahamic Covenant] until the Seed should come.
The covenant and the law that governed that covenant, is no longer.


Paul stated clearly and plainly, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, [the law of Moses] was abolished.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16

The middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile has been removed, and the thing that has divided the Jew and Gentile has been abolished, which is the law of commandments, contained in ordinances.

The Abrahamic Covenant, has been "renewed" or refreshed and is a better covenant [not different] based on better promises, and still carries the Law of the Lord, the same Lord Who made Covenant with Abraham, and is the same Lord Who became flesh and became Mediator of the New Covenant, and His law governs the New Covenant... not the law of Moses, which was indeed abolished in His flesh.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, the scriptures do say that the law was abolished, because it was fulfilled.

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18

Did you notice that Jesus said 'pass away' not 'get abolished' until the fulfillment of the law occurs. I think this is consistent with the author of Hebrews use of 'laid aside' when speaking of what happened to the law:

"9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second." (Hebrews 10:9 NIV)

Paul stated clearly and plainly, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, [the law of Moses] was abolished.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16

The middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile has been removed, and the thing that has divided the Jew and Gentile has been abolished, which is the law of commandments, contained in ordinances.

Without getting into a long discussion about my views on this passage, I'll just share this:

Jesus used the word 'destroy' in Matthew 5:17 NASB. He did not come to 'destroy' the law: Strong's #2647 katalyō
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2647&t=KJV

Paul used the word 'abolish' in Ephesians 2:15 to describe what Christ did to the law. In Christ the literal separation between Jew and gentile enforced by the law, and it's rabbinical add-on's, is 'abolished' (more rightly--set aside): Strong's #2673 katargeō
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2673&t=KJV

Vine's does a good job of explaining the difference between the two if you just click on the Vine's links inside of the links I provided above.

You see, the separation laws did not get abolished, as in erased from the universe, for the people of God. Even those are fulfilled in Christ, not removed from the eternal requirements of God. So the law was not abolished in that sense, but rather fulfilled. But the old way that separation was literally fulfilled, according to the law of Moses, yes, that is 'abolished' as in no longer literally binding on the people of God. I'm afraid this really is a legitimate case of semantics and is why I think it valuable to see that a different Greek word with different meanings in the original language is used by Paul and Jesus when talking about what can, and did, happen to the law.

 

[JLB]

Did you notice that Jesus said 'pass away'

Yes sir I did.

You see, the separation laws did not get abolished

They did get abolished. No way around it.

Here are a few explanations of what abolish means here in Ephesians 2 -

Abolish - Strong's Number: 2673 - Katargeo

Definition

1. to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
   1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
   2. to deprive of force, influence, power
2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
   1. to cease, to pass away, be done away
   2. to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
   3. to terminate all intercourse with one

King James Word Usage - Total: 27

destroy 5, do away 3, abolish 3, cumber 1, loose 1, cease 1, fall 1, deliver 1, miscellaneous 11

They got removed, or done away with; ie removed from the covenant they were added too.



The law of the New Covenant is the law of Christ, which is different than the law of Moses.

The law of Moses has been nailed to the cross.

It has been wiped out, not set over in another place, as in set aside, but wiped out and removed; so as to do away with completely.

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

The righteous requirements that Abraham walked in, such as "walk before Me and be blameless", are still very much a part of the New Covenant.

... walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.


Wiped out - Strong's Number: 1813 - Exaleipho

Definition

1. to anoint or wash in every part
   1. to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster)
2. to wipe off, wipe away
   1. to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out

King James Word Usage - Total: 5
blot out 3, wipe away 2

as in erased from the universe

Wouldn't even know how that would be possible.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They did get abolished. No way around it.

But were they destroyed as Jesus he did not come to do? That is the point I hoped you would glean from my previous post.

No, of course they were not destroyed. How do we know that? The Bible itself speaks of us fulfilling them every time we 'love your neighbor as yourself':

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NASB capitals in original).

Wouldn't even know how that would be possible.

By suggesting that our faith fulfills a different eternal law than what was represented in the law of Moses. That's how one would destroy the law of Moses as in erase it from the universe.

 

[Malachi]

No, not abolished, fulfilled.

Actually Jethro, "abolished" is the correct term and it is so used in Scripture (2 Cor 3:13 KJV) referring specifically to the Old Covenant and those aspects which were abolished.
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

The word translated as abolished is the Greek katargeo (Strong's 2673), which means primarily to be rendered entirely idle or useless, hence abolished (and many other similar meanings). Strong's even has "destroy" as one of the meanings. Vine says "reduced to inactivity", which means the same thing. The Levitical priesthood was abolished because the purpose of that system of sacrifices was indeed fulfilled in and through the Lamb of God.

 

[JLB]

But were they destroyed as Jesus he did not come to do? That is the point I hoped you would glean from my previous post.

Just abolished.

Which in condensed meaning is:
"Removed from the covenant it was added to".

I'm sure we all have the words of the covenant stil within our bible.

However, when the Abrahamic Covenant was renewed by the Covenant Maker, the law that was added, was blotted out and has been removed.

Hopefully, we can agree on this.


JLB

 

[JLB]

By suggesting that our faith fulfills a different eternal law than what was represented in the law of Moses. That's how one would destroy the law of Moses as in erase it from the universe.

the law of Moses was temporary.

The law of God is eternal.

You shall not lie is eternal.

You shall put to death your neighbor for violating the Sabbath was temporary. Exodus 31:15


JLB