What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually Jethro, "abolished" is the correct term and it is so used in Scripture (2 Cor 3:13 KJV) referring specifically to the Old Covenant and those aspects which were abolished.

It's correct--if you don't mean it the way the church improperly uses the word. The church in general considers the law to be destroyed, and so abolished in that sense. But what we see in scripture is that actually what it was was laid aside as unneeded now (Hebrews 10:9 NASB), not utterly destroyed. And I'm going out on a limb here and guessing you're in the abolished as in 'the law was destroyed' category. Am I right?

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

The word translated as abolished is the Greek katargeo (Strong's 2673), which means primarily to be rendered entirely idle or useless, hence abolished (and many other similar meanings). Strong's even has "destroy" as one of the meanings.

No, 'destroy' is not one of the meanings for this word, Strong's #2673. The word for 'destroy', the word Jesus used in Matthew 18:17 NASB, as I shared above, is Strong's #2647 katalyō
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2647&t=KJV

Neither Strong's nor Vine's defines #2673 as 'destroyed'. Perhaps what you're referring to is the fact that the KJB translates it 'destroyed' in a place or two, which according to them is not correct.

The point is, Jesus said he did not come to 'destroy' the law. But abolish it in the sense of making the temple aspects of it obsolete ('useless', as you note above), that he did do. But virtually everyone I have talked to in the church tells me they consider the law of Moses destroyed, not simply useless and obsolete in regard to the former, old way we kept God's eternal requirements, and so they use the word abolish to describe that destroying.

Vine says "reduced to inactivity", which means the same thing. The Levitical priesthood was abolished because the purpose of that system of sacrifices was indeed fulfilled in and through the Lamb of God.

No, 'abolish' actually does not mean the same thing as 'destroyed'. But that is how the church uses the word 'abolished', as in 'destroyed'. Not true at all. Jesus said he did not come to do that (Matthew 5:17 NASB). Rather he came to fulfill it, and now that it is fulfilled it can be laid aside as I explained in an earlier post. The remainder of which is then fulfilled by us, not destroyed by us, when we love our neighbor as ourself (Romans 13:8-10 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just abolished.

Which in condensed meaning is:
"Removed from the covenant it was added to".

I'm sure we all have the words of the covenant stil within our bible.

And much more than just being written in our Bibles. Our faith in Christ upholds and fulfills the words of the old covenant written in our Bibles.

However, when the Abrahamic Covenant was renewed by the Covenant Maker, the law that was added, was blotted out and has been removed.

Hopefully, we can agree on this.


JLB

The old way of fulfilling the eternal requirements of God have been laid aside because there is no need to fulfill a requirement of God in the old way that has been satisfactorily fulfilled in a new and better way.

 

[JLB]

And much more than just being written in our Bibles. Our faith in Christ upholds and fulfills the words of the old covenant written in our Bibles.

scripture?

 

[JLB]

And much more than just being written in our Bibles. Our faith in Christ upholds and fulfills the words of the old covenant written in our Bibles.



The old way of fulfilling the eternal requirements of God have been laid aside because there is no need to fulfill a requirement of God in the old way that has been satisfactorily fulfilled in a new and better way.

The old (Sinai) covenant has been made obsolete and has vanished away, having been nailed to the cross.
Hebrews 8:3.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The law of Christ, Who is YHWH, is not the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[JLB]

8 He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
Psalm 105:8-10


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

scripture?

Come on, you know which ones I've been cutting and pasting here for years now, lol.

Romans 3:31 NIV
Romans 13:8-10 NASB
Galatians 5:14 NASB

(Edited, ToS 2.5: "Do not "call out" other members by name who you have a disagreement with in the OP of a new thread or in a thread they are not already in. Members should not be put in the position of having to defend themselves in a discussion they have not yet chosen to participate in." Obadiah)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The old (Sinai) covenant has been made obsolete and has vanished away, having been nailed to the cross.
Hebrews 8:3.


JLB

Yes, we all know this, but it was not destroyed.
Jesus said rather than coming to destroy it he came to fulfill it:

"I did not come to abolish (that is 'destroy') but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

And fulfillment certainly does mean that everything associated with temple, priesthood, and sacrifice can, therefore, be laid aside as unneeded now (obsolete, useless, etc.)

As long as your doctrine does not destroy the law I have no gripe with your doctrine. No argument here.

 

[Sinthesis]

What are these 'original laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant'? How do you know?

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Genesis 26:5

Abraham, received God's laws and commandments, by faith, which is what God had directed Adam to do in the Garden.

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

When God speaks to us His laws and commandments, faith accompanies His Voice.

He has written His laws on our heart.

When we walk with Him in His presence, and hear His Voice, we are given faith that comes by hearing, as His presence empowers us to resist fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

God desires for us to walk with Him and learn from Him, and be taught of Him.

Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


JLB

Just abolished.

Which in condensed meaning is:
"Removed from the covenant it was added to".

I'm sure we all have the words of the covenant stil within our bible.

However, when the Abrahamic Covenant was renewed by the Covenant Maker, the law that was added, was blotted out and has been removed.

Hopefully, we can agree on this.


JLB

Are you saying that the New Covenant mediated by Jesus Christ is just a renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant?

​

I asked what you believe the 'original laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant' were, and you replied that "Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
So what exact charge, commandments, statutes, and laws did Abraham believe God's voice told him to keep? I ask because at some point Abraham believed that God wanted him to murder his child. This is problematic given:

Jer 7:31 - And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 - They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 - And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.​

Even so, Abraham acted on this vile belief and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Jas 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 - Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

Graciously, God provided the only way for Abraham to express the depth of his faith, yet without murdering Isaac and thereby profaning God's Name through the same works as those demanded by Tophet, Baal, and Molech.

The point here is that without specifics, we have no way of knowing how one was to keep the Abrahamic Covenant beyond circumcision. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit one might believe all sorts of works were required.

Regardless, Jesus' New Covenant includes something actually new:

Jhn 13:34 - A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.​

This commandment could not be new if it was only part of some restored Abrahamic Covenant. Jesus expressed His love for us by sacrificing himself, and not another human being.

 

[JLB]

Yes, we all know this, but it was not destroyed.

It was abolished.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;

It was removed from the Covenant to which it was added.


Can you receive that?

Yes, we all know this, but it was not destroyed.
Jesus said rather than coming to destroy it he came to fulfill it:

"I did not come to abolish (that is 'destroy') but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

And fulfillment certainly does mean that everything associated with temple, priesthood, and sacrifice can, therefore, be laid aside as unneeded now (obsolete, useless, etc.)

As long as your doctrine does not destroy the law I have no gripe with your doctrine. No argument here.

Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,


Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He Abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross


Gal 2:19-20 For through the law I died to the law,so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


The law of Moses was cancelled, which means it was removed from the covenant it was previously added to.

Can you agree with this?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you saying that the New Covenant mediated by Jesus Christ is just a renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant?

​

I asked what you believe the 'original laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant' were, and you replied that "Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
So what exact charge, commandments, statutes, and laws did Abraham believe God's voice told him to keep? I ask because at some point Abraham believed that God wanted him to murder his child. This is problematic given:

Jer 7:31 - And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 - They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 - And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.​

Even so, Abraham acted on this vile belief and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Jas 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 - Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

Graciously, God provided the only way for Abraham to express the depth of his faith, yet without murdering Isaac and thereby profaning God's Name through the same works as those demanded by Tophet, Baal, and Molech.

The point here is that without specifics, we have no way of knowing how one was to keep the Abrahamic Covenant beyond circumcision. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit one might believe all sorts of works were required.

Regardless, Jesus' New Covenant includes something actually new:

Jhn 13:34 - A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.​

This commandment could not be new if it was only part of some restored Abrahamic Covenant. Jesus expressed His love for us by sacrificing himself, and not another human being.

That is why I said the Abrahamic Covenant was renewed or refreshed as it has better promises.

The New Covenant is not some brand new different Covenant, that somehow does not include the natural children of Abraham.

He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
Psalm 105:8-10

The Lord Jesus made Covenant with Abraham, before He became flesh.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I amAlmighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It was abolished.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;

It was removed from the Covenant to which it was added.


Can you receive that?


Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,


Hebrews 10:9
then he added, ‘See, I have come to do your will.’ He Abolishes the first in order to establish the second.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross


Gal 2:19-20 For through the law I died to the law,so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


The law of Moses was cancelled, which means it was removed from the covenant it was previously added to.

Can you agree with this?


JLB

Everybody knows the law of Moses was laid aside because we don't need it to do for us what Christ now does for us. But was it destroyed?

No reason to visit the 'laid aside' aspect of the law of Moses over and over and over again. I've already talked about this in my previous posts. Was the law of Moses destroyed? That is the question.

"I did not come to abolish (destroy) but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB parenthesis mine)

What does your doctrine say?

.

 

[JLB]

Everybody knows the law of Moses was laid aside because we don't need it to do for us what Christ now does for us. But was it destroyed?

No reason to visit the 'laid aside' aspect of the law of Moses over and over and over again. I've already talked about this in my previous posts. Was the law of Moses destroyed? That is the question.

There is no reason for you to talk in circles to avoid the very simple question I asked.

Abolished means the law of Moses was removed from the covenant it was previously added to.

Do you agree with this?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no reason for you to talk in circles to avoid the very simple question I asked.

Abolished means the law of Moses was removed from the covenant it was previously added to.

Do you agree with this?


JLB

I agree in 'abolished' meaning the law of Moses as a covenant through which the people of God draw near to God has been laid aside as no longer needed because it's requirements got/get fulfilled in Christ. I don't think we have any disagreement here.

Now, my question for you: Was the law of Moses destroyed? That is the question.

"I did not come to abolish (destroy) but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB parenthesis mine)

What does your doctrine say?

 

[JLB]

Everybody knows the law of Moses was laid aside because we don't need it to do for us what Christ now does for us. But was it destroyed?

No reason to visit the 'laid aside' aspect of the law of Moses over and over and over again. I've already talked about this in my previous posts. Was the law of Moses destroyed? That is the question.

"I did not come to abolish (destroy) but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB parenthesis mine)

What does your doctrine say?

.

My doctrine sees what Jesus said for what it is.

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

Jesus came to fulfill the things in the Torah, and the Prophets.

The prophecies that the prophets foretold.

The shadows and types that pointed to Christ, that were before the law of Moses, as well as the the things in the law of Moses that pointed to Christ.

Christ came to fulfill these things in all of the OT, that pointed to Him, not do away with them.

Your doctrine seems to think that the law spoken of here in Matthew 5, refers only to the law of Moses, rather than the first five books of the Bible, as well as the Prophets.

I don't know of anyone who thinks Jesus came to destroy the prophets and the things in the OT that prophesied of Him, since it was He Himself that spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

What was removed, was the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that was added, that required the people of God shun marrying or eating or associating with Gentiles, as well as sacrificing animals, or Mosaic Sabbath laws, feast days and food laws...


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your doctrine seems to think that the law spoken of here in Matthew 5, refers only to the law of Moses, rather than the first five books of the Bible, as well as the Prophets.

No, my doctrine does not think he was only referring to the laws of Moses. But does your doctrine think he was excluding the laws of Moses as that which he came to fulfill, not destroy?

"I did not come to abolish (destroy) but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB parenthesis mine)

I don't know of anyone who thinks Jesus came to destroy the prophets and the things in the OT that prophesied of Him

But do you know of anybody who thinks he came to destroy the laws of Moses?
I do.

.

 

[JLB]

Yes, we all know this, but it was not destroyed.

It was abolished.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;

It was removed from the Covenant to which it was added.


Can you receive that?

 

[JLB]

No, my doctrine does not think he was only referring to the laws of Moses. But does your doctrine think he was excluding the laws of Moses as that which he came to fulfill, not destroy?

"I did not come to abolish (destroy) but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB parenthesis mine)



But do you know of anybody who thinks he came to destroy the laws of Moses?
I do.

.

I believe there are many people who believe the law of Moses was abolished.

Paul being one of them.

Abolished means to cancel or remove; ie remove from the covenant it was added to.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No, my doctrine does not think he was only referring to the laws of Moses. But does your doctrine think he was excluding the laws of Moses as that which he came to fulfill, not destroy?

As I said in my post.

The shadows and types that pointed to Christ, that were before the law of Moses, as well as the the things in the law of Moses that pointed to Christ.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
Galatians 3:19


Since the purpose of the law, was to be added until the Seed should come... it was no longer needed and was blotted out, abolished, nailed to the cross, because it was no longer a part of the covenant.


The time had come, the law was no longer needed, and therefore it was abolished from the covenant.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe there are many people who believe the law of Moses was abolished.

Paul being one of them.

Abolished means to cancel or remove; ie remove from the covenant it was added to.
[...]
The time had come, the law was no longer needed, and therefore it was abolished from the covenant.

We've already covered this. Were done with that. There is no point of discussion left with that.

I asked if your doctrine says the laws of Moses was 'destroyed'--Strong's #2647 katalyō?

"I did not come to abolish (destroy--katalyō) but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB parenthesis mine)

That's all I'm asking.
.