What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

"31 Do we, then, nullify (set aside, abolish, etc.) the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

You say we are not obligated to the law of Moses in any way. Paul says we are. Which part of the law of Moses is Paul saying does not get nullified by faith in Christ?

Of course we know he's not talking about the temple requirements, which do get nullified and set aside by faith, so no need to go there. We're done with that part of the discussion. We have no disagreement there.

"We" don't abolish the law as "we" have no authority to do so.

This was done by the Covenant Maker Himself, on the cross.

4 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16

having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances...

Since He abolished the law of commandments, not "us" who have faith, which commandments does this scripture say He didn't abolish?

He abolished all the law of Commandments that were added, so that the only ones that remain intact, are the original laws and commandments of the covenant that the law of Moses was added to.

However, the same measure of rule that upholds faith, also upholds the law, which is obedience.

Jesus was the only One Who was obedient to obey all of the law.

Faith in Him and His work of obedience, He accomplished in His life as well as His death on the cross, accredits us with His righteousness that come's from obedience to do all that is written in the law.

Obedience is the common weight of measure that upholds in the scales of Justice.

So by faith in Christ, we achieve the same standard of righteousness as one who obeyed all of the law.

This of course is not obligating us to keep the law of Moses.

This shows those who were being pressured and persecuted, (Jews) to return to keeping the law, after coming to Christ, that they were not being disobedient to God.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

"31 Do we, then, nullify (set aside, abolish, etc.) the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)
You say we are not obligated to the law of Moses in any way. Paul says we are. Which part of the law of Moses is Paul saying does not get nullified by faith in Christ?

In Romans, Paul uses the term "the Law" for the Ten Commandments, and then goes on to show how they have become the Law of Love (Rom 13).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He abolished all the law of Commandments that were added, so that the only ones that remain intact, are the original laws and commandments of the covenant that the law of Moses was added to.

What happened to the rest of the law of Moses that didn't get set aside (Romans 3:31 NASB)?
You're not breaking up the law of Moses into parts--eternal and Mosaic--and saying that parts of the law of Moses aren't really part of the law of Moses, are you? All of the law was the covenant, not just parts of it.

Faith in Him and His work of obedience, He accomplished in His life as well as His death on the cross, accredits us with His righteousness that come's from obedience to do all that is written in the law.

Who performs the obedience of 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) so that it is fulfilled, not destroyed in our lives?

So by faith in Christ, we achieve the same standard of righteousness as one who obeyed all of the law.

What about actually doing the standard of righteousness so we can be saved by a faith that is alive, not dead (James 2:14 NASB)? Who fulfills that, us or Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In Romans, Paul uses the term "the Law" for the Ten Commandments, and then goes on to show how they have become the Law of Love (Rom 13).

'Become' the law of love? You mean they weren't before?

"9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. " (Romans 13:9-10 NASB capitals in original)

 

[JLB]

What happened to the rest of the law of Moses that didn't get set aside (Romans 3:31 NASB)?
You're not breaking up the law of Moses into parts--eternal and Mosaic--and saying that parts of the law of Moses aren't really part of the law of Moses, are you? All of the law was the covenant, not just parts of it.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Who performs the obedience of 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) so that it is fulfilled, not destroyed in our lives?

Are you trying again to say that love your neighbor somehow originated with Moses?

What about actually doing the standard of righteousness so we can be saved by a faith that is alive, not dead (James 2:14 NASB)? Who fulfills that, us or Christ?

What about it?


JLB

 

[JLB]

What happened to the rest of the law of Moses that didn't get set aside (Romans 3:31 NASB)?

What rest of the law.

He abolished the law of Commandments that were contained in ordinances... Ephesians 2:14-15

We are not under the law but under grace... Romans 6:14

Not part of the law, but not under the law... the law of Commandments contained in ordinances...not part of the law contained in ordinances.


11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? Hebrews 7:11


How can there be a law of Moses without the Levitical priesthood?

Please explain what "part" of the law of Moses still functions without the Levitical Priesthood?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you trying again to say that love your neighbor somehow originated with Moses?

No. It probably did not originate with the law of Moses, but really we don't know. The Bible doesn't say.

My questions is, are you trying to say 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) is NOT the law of Moses? Just because it was before the law of Moses doesn't mean it's not the law of Moses. It that were true then the Ten Commandments are not the law of Moses, which would be just plain ridiculous.


See, your doctrine has yet to explain this:

"15 by abolishing (Strong's #26373) in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15 NASB italics, bold, and parenthesis mine)

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. [...] 31 Do we then nullify (Strong's #2673) the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:28,31 NASB italics, bold, and parenthesis mine)

We know what in the law of Moses got set aside in Ephesians 2:15 NASB--the temple/ceremonial law. We have no disagreement here. No need to bring it up as you keep doing. What you have yet to explain is what IN THE LAW OF MOSES, not some 'other' law, did NOT get set aside (Strong's #2673) in Romans 3:31 NASB.

Romans 3:31 NASB means that part of the law of Moses is still around, not abolished. If you say it's another law then that not only abolishes what Paul said is not abolished in the law of Moses, but destroys it too because it leaves it unkept, not fulfilled, in favor of 'another' law. So what does your doctrine say is the law of Moses that did not get abolished, but rather gets established by our faith in this New Covenant?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What rest of the law.

What rest of the law? The part that Paul said does NOT get abolished by faith (Romans 3:31 NASB), as the ceremonial laws and their associated Rabbinical laws do (Ephesians 2:15 NASB).

You keep saying the whole thing got abolished. That's not what Paul said. Explain why your doctrine does not agree with Paul.

 

[JLB]

Romans 3:31 NASB means that part of the law of Moses is still around, not abolished. If you say it's another law then that not only abolishes what Paul said is not abolished in the law of Moses, but destroys it too because it leaves it unkept, not fulfilled, in favor of 'another' law. So what does your doctrine say is the law of Moses that did not get abolished, but rather gets established by our faith in this New Covenant?

Romans 3:31 means part of the law of Moses is still around ???

How can there still be some "part" of the law of Moses with no Levitical Priesthood?

The point Paul makes in Romans 3:31 is that the same weight of measure that upholds faith also upholds the law

Jesus was the only One Who was obedient to obey all of the law.

Faith in Him and His work of obedience, He accomplished in His life as well as His death on the cross, accredits us with His righteousness that come's from obedience to do all that is written in the law.

Obedience is the common weight of measure that upholds in the scales of Justice.

So by faith in Christ, we achieve the same standard of righteousness as one who obeyed all of the law.

This of course is not obligating us to keep the law of Moses.

This shows those who were being pressured and persecuted, (Jews) to return to keeping the law, after coming to Christ, that they were not being disobedient to God.

No where in Romans 3:31 does it mention a "part" of the law that is still around.


31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:31

The law!

Not part of the law, but the law.

The law of faith and the law of Moses, carries the same weight of requirement; obedience.

This is how faith, which requires obedience, upholds the law, which requires obedience.

Faith does not uphold part of the law, but the law.


JLB

 

[JLB]

My questions is, are you trying to say 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) is NOT the law of Moses? Just because it was before the law of Moses doesn't mean it's not the law of Moses. It that were true then the Ten Commandments are not the law of Moses, which would be just plain ridiculous.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others?Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48

Is this the law of Moses or the law of Christ?


JLB

 

[JLB]

My questions is, are you trying to say 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) is NOT the law of Moses? Just because it was before the law of Moses

As I have said many times before in discussing this subject;

The laws of God that were before the law of Moses, and were seen in the law of Moses, remained intact when the law that was added, got abolished.

In other words, the laws that were a part of the Covenant, that the law of Moses was added to 430 years later remained throughout the time the law of Moses was in force, and continue to remain as laws of that Covenant today, unless the Covenant Maker specifically says otherwise.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 3:31 means part of the law of Moses is still around ???

How can there still be some "part" of the law of Moses with no Levitical Priesthood?

Because the Levitical priesthood has no bearing on the part that remains. The old priesthood governed that which got set aside--the ceremonial temple worship part of the law (Hebrews 10:8-9 NASB).

The point Paul makes in Romans 3:31 is that the same weight of measure that upholds faith also upholds the law

How does a law get established and abolished (set aside) at the same time? Paul points out that the opposite of a law being nullified (abolished, set aside) is that it gets established:

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? ... On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31 NASB)

Jesus was the only One Who was obedient to obey all of the law.

Faith in Him and His work of obedience, He accomplished in His life as well as His death on the cross, accredits us with His righteousness that come's from obedience to do all that is written in the law.

Obedience is the common weight of measure that upholds in the scales of Justice.

So by faith in Christ, we achieve the same standard of righteousness as one who obeyed all of the law.

This of course is not obligating us to keep the law of Moses.

How do you 'uphold the scales of Justice' prescribed in the law of Moses if you insist it is not the law of Moses that we establish (the part that remains, that is)? Your doctrine has the law of Moses destroyed (not just set aside) in favor of another law altogether. That leaves the law of Moses unsatisfied--the very destruction Jesus said he did not come to do (Matthew 5:17-18 NASB).

You see, what your doctrine is not understanding is that the parts of the law that got set aside were not set aside in favor of 'another' law of ceremonies and worship stipulations, they were set aside because they are simply not needed anymore. And what the church is doing is taking this erroneous understanding of why the ceremonial law got laid aside (saying we have a new laws about that) and applying it to 'Love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) saying we serve a 'different' law of love. But you can't say that about that part of the law of Moses because we do indeed need that part of the law (2 Timothy 3:16 NASB).

No where in Romans 3:31 does it mention a "part" of the law that is still around.


31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:31

The law!

Not part of the law, but the law.

We know he's not talking about the laws that really did get nullified (set aside) in the law of Moses. We know that from your verse, Ephesians 2:15 NASB. So, simple logic tells us he's obviously not contradicting himself in Romans 3:31 NASB by including the laws he himself are set aside in Ephesians 2:15 NASB. Unless you want to argue that he is contradicting himself(?)

Faith does not uphold part of the law, but the law.

In regard to fulfillment, yes. Bot not in regard to nullification.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I have said many times before in discussing this subject;

The laws of God that were before the law of Moses, and were seen in the law of Moses, remained intact when the law that was added, got abolished.

In other words, the laws that were a part of the Covenant, that the law of Moses was added to 430 years later remained throughout the time the law of Moses was in force, and continue to remain as laws of that Covenant today, unless the Covenant Maker specifically says otherwise.


JLB

So you're saying the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17 NASB) are NOT the law of Moses?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others?Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48

Is this the law of Moses or the law of Christ?


JLB

Both.

Gotta run....brains surgeries are waiting.

 

[JLB]

So you're saying the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17 NASB) are NOT the law of Moses?

I am saying the 10 commandments are God's Commandments before Moses was born.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Because the Levitical priesthood has no bearing on the part that remains.

Please show me the scripture that commands Christians to keep "part" of the law of Moses.

How do you 'uphold the scales of Justice' prescribed in the law of Moses if you insist it is not the law of Moses that we establish (the part that remains, that is)? Your doctrine has the law of Moses destroyed (not just set aside) in favor of another law altogether.

Faith has the same weight of measure [obedience], that the law of Moses had.

Just as I illustrated before.

1 lb of Gold weighs the same as 1 lb of confederate money, however the confederate money is obsolete and has no value in this current monetary system, though it has the same weight of measure.

In other words 1 lb of gold will uphold 1 lb of confederate money on a scale as they both "weigh" the same.

To the Jew who had only known the law of Moses as being obedient to God, and were being persuaded by other Jews to return to the law of Moses, Paul assured them that by the obedience of faith they were upholding the same weight of righteousness, that obedience to the law of Moses required.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am saying the 10 commandments are God's Commandments before Moses was born.

I know that.
But are you saying the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17 NASB) are NOT the law of Moses?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show me the scripture that commands Christians to keep "part" of the law of Moses.

9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep..." (Romans 13:9-11 NASB emphasis mine, capitals in original)

It's impossible to 'love your neighbor as yourself' and that not 'keep' the law of Moses to 'not murder', 'not steal', etc. We are commanded to fulfill and uphold the law that way. "Do this...", Paul says, vs. 11.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith has the same weight of measure [obedience], that the law of Moses had.

Just as I illustrated before.

1 lb of Gold weighs the same as 1 lb of confederate money, however the confederate money is obsolete and has no value in this current monetary system, though it has the same weight of measure.

In other words 1 lb of gold will uphold 1 lb of confederate money on a scale as they both "weigh" the same.

To the Jew who had only known the law of Moses as being obedient to God, and were being persuaded by other Jews to return to the law of Moses, Paul assured them that by the obedience of faith they were upholding the same weight of righteousness, that obedience to the law of Moses required.


JLB

There is absolutely nothing, not an ounce of anything, that upholds confederate money. So it's hardly an analogy that can be applied to what Paul says, that faith does in fact uphold the law of Moses, not nullifies it completely (abolishes it, sets it aside, etc.) as you say faith does.

He uses the same word in Ephesians 2:15 NASB to describe the end of the temple/worship stipulations as he does in Romans 3:31 NASB to describe what did NOT happen to the law of Moses. Your doctrine fails to explain the difference between the two--which laws were nullified (Ephesians 2:15 NASB), and which laws were not nullified in the law of Moses (Romans 3:31 NASB). Mine does.

 

[JLB]

There is absolutely nothing, not an ounce of anything, that upholds confederate money. So it's hardly an analogy that can be applied to what Paul says, that faith does in fact uphold the law of Moses, not nullifies it completely (abolishes it, sets it aside, etc.) as you say faith does.

I have never said faith abolishes the law of Moses.

I said God Himself has abolished the law of Moses.

15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

God also declared the law of Moses to be obsolete.

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13


God is also the One Who wiped out the hand writing of requirements and nailed it to the cross, having taken it out of the way.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14

I have never said our faith abolishes the law of Moses.

You can tell when someone is grasping at straws, when they have to resort to "making up things" that you say.


JLB