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What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

The scriptures can not give life, only Christ.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40



JLB
Reading and knowing what the law says means you are trying to be born again by the law? Really?

Here. This is what Paul says about the law that makes it impossible that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden was the law:

"12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good (the Law) become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin" (Romans 7:12-13 NASB parenthesis mine)

As we can see, Paul had a much different opinion of the law than most people in the church. They say the law WAS a cause of death to me. I'm gonna go with Paul on this one. I agree with him, it is sin in me that caused my death, not reading the law.
 
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. Deuteronomy 18:10-13


Where is the phrase that the Lord spoke to Abraham, walk before Me and be blameless?
I find it ironic that for someone who is so anti-law that you would use such a legalistic way to avoid having your doctrinal claim exposed as being not true. .

13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:13 NASB)
 
Reading and knowing what the law says means you are trying to be born again by the law? Really?

Who said this?

I find it ironic that for someone who is so anti-law that you would use such a legalistic way to avoid having your doctrinal claim exposed as being not true. .

13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:13 NASB)

Did the children of Israel have a personal relationship with the Lord, or was it just Moses who heard the Voice of the Lord, and spoke to the children of Israel, what the Lord told Him to say?

19 Then they said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die." Exodus 20:19



Abraham obeyed the Voice of the Lord, spoke directly to him.


The law is not of faith.


JLB
 
I find it ironic that for someone who is so anti-law

The law of God is beautiful and righteous, and is eternal.

The law of Moses has passed away, having become obsolete, and nailed to the cross.

The law of Moses was beautiful in it's time.

He has made everything beautiful in it's time. Ecclesiastes 3:11


However, since the time for the law of Moses has passed away, those who pervert the Gospel, by adding the law of Moses to it, are cursed.


6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed...
Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), Galatians 1:6-9,2:3-4


JLB
 
I agree with him, it is sin in me that caused my death, not reading the law.

Reading and studying the law can not give a person life [eternal life].

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40


It is the Voice [Rhema Word] of God that gives life.

But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live [have life] by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' " Matthew 4:4

The Spoken Gospel Message is life to those who are perishing.


JLB
 
If the law of God is not the law of Moses, why did James teach the law of Moses to the church, putting them, as you say, under the curse of the law?

22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

(James 1:22-27 NASB, James 2:1-17 NASB)

Now you do have to be somewhat familiar with the law to see all the references to the law of Moses he makes here. I used to be like so many in the church, I never read the law to even know James was practically teaching right out of the law in this letter to the church. Which is so contrary to what so many churches teach, that the law of Moses was utterly disposed of in favor of some kind of vague, ill-defined law of lovey feelings that you either obeyed or didn't obey depending on whether or not the Holy Spirit makes it happen in you or not. And if he does not, all is still well because it would be works for you to purposely intervene in the outcome.

I guess it's impossible that the Spirit of God could actually inhabit the law of Moses and speak to someone's heart and lead them into the obedience it teaches (see passage above). That has to come from outside of the law of Moses, right?
 
If the law of God is not the law of Moses, why did James teach the law of Moses to the church, putting them, as you say, under the curse of the law?

22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

(James 1:22-27 NASB, James 2:1-17 NASB)

Now you do have to be somewhat familiar with the law to see all the references to the law of Moses he makes here. I used to be like so many in the church, I never read the law to even know James was practically teaching right out of the law in this letter to the church. Which is so contrary to what so many churches teach, that the law of Moses was utterly disposed of in favor of some kind of vague, ill-defined law of lovey feelings that you either obeyed or didn't obey depending on whether or not the Holy Spirit makes it happen in you or not. And if he does not, all is still well because it would be works for you to purposely intervene in the outcome.

I guess it's impossible that the Spirit of God could actually inhabit the law of Moses and speak to someone's heart and lead them into the obedience it teaches (see passage above). That has to come from outside of the law of Moses, right?


The Good News is; Christ has set those who were under the law free from the law of Moses.

As you stated, it's not necessary to keep the obsolete law of Moses to be right with God.

JLB
 
Which is so contrary to what so many churches teach, that the law of Moses was utterly disposed of in favor of some kind of vague, ill-defined law of lovey feelings that you either obeyed or didn't obey depending on whether or not the Holy Spirit makes it happen in you or not. And if he does not, all is still well because it would be works for you to purposely intervene in the outcome.

I must admit, you must be very well traveled, to have been in so many strange Churches and have heard so many strange doctrines, that you can make such assumptions about you is teaching what.

Are you still under the impression that loving God and loving people is a concept that somehow originated with the law of Moses?

What point are you trying to make?


You have agreed that one does not need to keep the law of Moses to be right with God.

Do we receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law of Moses?


JLB
 
The Good News is; Christ has set those who were under the law free from the law of Moses.
This didn't answer my question. So let's try it again:

If the law of God is not the law of Moses, why did James teach the law of Moses to the church, putting them, as you say, under the curse of the law?

22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? 8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

(James 1:22-27 NASB, James 2:1-17 NASB)



As you stated, it's not necessary to keep the obsolete law of Moses to be right with God.
Why does every single discussion about the law shrink down to the matter of being justified by the law for so many on your side of the issue? The law of God being the law of Moses doesn't have anything to do with this matter of justification. Your 'other' law can not make a person righteous either. There is no such thing as a law that can make a person righteous:

"For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law." (Galatians 3:21 NASB)

This includes any other law, even your law of God that you say is not the law of Moses. No one is made righteous by following that law either, if it existed separate from the law of Moses. So the law of Moses not being able to justify has no bearing on whether or not the law of God is the law of Moses. The law of God in your doctrine can not justify either.
 
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Are you still under the impression that loving God and loving people is a concept that somehow originated with the law of Moses?

What point are you trying to make?
That 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) is the exact same law before, during, and after the law of Moses. It is not a 'different' law just because it got written down by Moses.

You have agreed that one does not need to keep the law of Moses to be right with God.
You don't have to keep ANY law anywhere to be made right with God (Galatians 3:21 NASB). That can only happen through the forgiveness of sins. Yet the law of Moses not being able to make a person righteous before God is somehow an argument that needs to be used to prove that the law of God is not the law of Moses? Why?

Do we receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law of Moses?
Neither do we receive the Holy Spirit by ANY law, including the law of God that is not the law of Moses in your doctrine, but rather by faith (Galatians 3:5 NASB). So how is this an argument that somehow has a place in a debate of whether or not the law of God is the law of Moses?
 
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I guess what you could do, JLB, is explain how 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB), for example, is a different law written down by Moses than 'love your neighbor as yourself' is written down today. How does that work? How can the exact same law be two different laws entirely simply because one got written down by Moses, while the other one got written down by someone else?
 
That 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) is the exact same law before, during, and after the law of Moses. It is not a 'different' law just because it got written down by Moses.

God Himself wrote down the 10 Commandments.

Love your neighbor is God's Law found in the Torah, long before Moses was born.

Love your neighbor is God's Law long after Moses law was declared obsolete.


JLB
 
God Himself wrote down the 10 Commandments.

Love your neighbor is God's Law found in the Torah, long before Moses was born.

Love your neighbor is God's Law long after Moses law was declared obsolete.


JLB
What is the difference between 19'You shall not steal (Deuteronomy 5:19 NASB) in the law of Moses, and the 'other' 'You shall not steal' outside of the law of Moses in your doctrine? What makes them different from each other that they are distinct and separate and different laws and not the exact same law?
 
You don't have to keep ANY law anywhere to be made right with God (Galatians 3:21 NASB). That can only happen through the forgiveness of sins.

Every person who is made righteous, through Christ, must obey the law of faith, by the work of obedience.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

The wrath of God upon those who do not obey the Gospel.

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:17-18

and again

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

Obedience is the principle in the law of faith that makes the person right with God.

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:26-28

The law of faith is disconnected from and stands apart from the law of Moses, as the law is not of faith.

Yet, both laws, though apart from one another, have the measure of requirement, in that, the same "weight" of measure that makes faith acceptable to God, [OBEDIENCE], is also the same for the law of Moses, OBEDIENCE TO DO ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE LAW.

"Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." Galatians 3:10


JLB
 
What is the difference between 19'You shall not steal (Deuteronomy 5:19 NASB) in the law of Moses, and the 'other' 'You shall not steal' outside of the law of Moses in your doctrine? What makes them different from each other that they are distinct and separate and different laws and not the exact same law?

Do not steal is God's law that He wrote with His fingers into the stone tablets.

These laws were God's laws before Moses was born.

Now that Moses law is extinct, defunct, obsolete, vanished away, blotted out, nailed to the cross, and abolished, what remains is the laws of God that were contained in the Covenant before the law was added.

God did not have to add His laws... as they were already in the Covenant.



JLB
 
Now that Moses law is extinct, defunct, obsolete, vanished away, blotted out, nailed to the cross, and abolished, what remains is the laws of God that were contained in the Covenant before the law was added.

You're saying the 'do not steal' in the law of Moses is the exact same 'do not steal' in the law of Moses (Deuteronomy 5:19 NASB). Good.
But how can you delete the 'do not steal' in the law of Moses but still have a law 'do not steal' if they are one and the same law (which they are)?

God did not have to add His laws... as they were already in the Covenant.
Are you saying the Abrahamic covenant is a covenant of law?
 
Obedience is the principle in the law of faith that makes the person right with God.
Obedience never made anyone right with God. That is impossible to do.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

If you disagree with Paul, which deed, or deeds, done in righteousness literally makes an unrighteous person now legally righteous in God's sight? I'm pretty sure only faith in God's forgiveness can do that. That's what Christianity is all about. That's the 'good news'. We aren't justified on the basis of satisfactory work performed. We're all lost if that's what we have to do to be saved, even with the power of faith to help us. We are saved by God graciously wiping away the guilt of our unrighteousness that condemns us, which mercifully rescues us from the eternity of separation from him that our unrighteousness deserves.


The law of faith is disconnected from and stands apart from the law of Moses, as the law is not of faith.
The 'law of faith' is not a literal set of laws. In context (Romans 3:21-28 NASB) you can see that the 'law' of faith is a metonymy for the 'rule' you follow to be justified before God (believe in God's forgiveness through Christ) versus the 'rule' you follow to be justified by the law (do righteous things).
 
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Obedience never made anyone right with God. That is impossible to do.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

The way we receive the forgiveness of sins, is to turn to God in obedience to the Gospel Message.

The only way a person is made right with God is obedience.

A person must obey the Gospel commandment to repent, and show this by the action of confessing with their mouth Jesus as Lord.

This is the way of salvation.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

Before we are purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ, Satan is our lord.

To repent, means we turn from Satan as lord, and turn to Jesus and confess Him as Lord.

to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' Acts 26:18


JLB
 
JLB, there is nothing that you can do that can EARN God's declaration of right standing with him. There is no law, not even the 'other' law in your doctrine, that can EARN God's justification.

"For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law." (Galatians 3:21 NASB)

"18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise." (Galatians 3:18 NASB)

It's more clear now why you have invented this 'other' law--a law that justifies--since you believe that 'law of faith' means a literal set of rules, one that earns a person a declaration of righteous by doing them.
 
JLB, there is nothing that you can do that can EARN God's declaration of right standing with him. There is no law, not even the 'other' law in your doctrine, that can EARN God's justification.


If you can show me in my post where I said one can earn their salvation, then please point it out to me.

Maybe your under the impression that obeying the Gospel is somehow trying to earn your salvation?

Is that what you believe, Jethro?



JLB
 
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