What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Jethro Bodine]

Hopefully, you can see now that I'm not talking about another law of Moses. I'm talking about the difference between literally keeping the law of Moses and spiritually 'keeping' the law of Moses.

As I showed you, God accepts a non-literal, spiritual fulfillment of the laws of Moses governing temple worship such that no outstanding debt of law remains regarding those laws for the person who has faith in Christ. Faith in Christ having set aside (nullified/abolished them) those laws because there is no need for them, not because faith in Christ destroys them, but because faith in Christ satisfies their requirements. God said so. I used Paul's example of circumcision to show this (Romans 2:26-29 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you hurry before editing gets locked, you can add the missing '[' in the closing tag of my quote and your post #638 will render properly.

 

[JLB]

Neither Jew nor gentile is under obligation to keep the literal laws of Moses

Is there another law of Moses, other than the literal one?

If you say there is, then please show me from the scriptures where there is another law of Moses, other than the literal one.


Otherwise, the literal law of Moses, has been made obsolete, nailed to the cross, been abolished and wiped out... which means it was removed from the Covenant to which it was added. Galatians 3:19, Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:14-15


Love God and love your neighbor is the essence of the Torah and the Prophets.

The 10 commandments are directly from God and are the law of God, are are eternal.

The law of Moses was the laws written by Moses, that instituted these laws from God in commandments contained in ordinances.

The 10 Commandments were in force since the beginning, in the Garden.

• Adam and Eve broke the First Commandment by putting another god before the Creator God.

• In doing so, they also broke the Fifth Commandment, by dishonoring their Parent, Adam was a created son of God (Luke 3:38).

• Their sin also involved stealing, in that they took something that was not theirs.

• Eve lusted for the forbidden fruit. Lusting is coveting, or envying which is idolatry.

• Cain murdered and broke the Sixth Commandment.

• Jacob knew that God forbade idolatry. Genesis 35:2

Sin is transgression of God's law. Sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
Genesis 4:7

The Covenant children transgressed God's law 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

God's laws were before the law of Moses, and were seen in the law of Moses.


Abraham kept these laws 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Genesis 26:5

My commandments = The 10 Commandments


JLB

 

[JLB]

God accepts a non-literal, spiritual fulfillment of the laws of Moses

Please show me this "non literal", "spiritual" keeping of the law of Moses from the law of Moses.

Here is what Paul said -

Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Galatians 3:10


What I hope you will eventually see, is that you have been "leavened" with the teachings of Messianic Judaism, which require believers in Christ, to also keep the law of Moses, to some varying degree, based on whichever sect you are talking to.

To try and teach that Gentiles are obligated to keep any part of the law of Moses, when those who were under the law, have been redeemed from the law, [Galatians 4:4] so that they are free from the law, is utterly ridiculous. This shows a lack of understanding as to what Christ Jesus accomplished for His people, the natural children of Israel, on the cross.

To try and teach Christians that they are obligated to keep a "part" of the law of Moses, sets them up to be cursed, as Paul clearly teaches of those who don't keep ALL OF THE LAW, AND CONTINUE TO KEEP ALL OF THE LAW, are under a curse.

Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Galatians 3:10

The law of faith, which requires obedience, upholds or satisfies or balances, the same requirement of obedience in the law of Moses.

This is what Paul conveys to His fellow countrymen, to encourage them to remain faithful and obedient to Christ, and not turn back to the law of Moses, even under the threat of death from the unbelieving Jews.


The law of God, the 10 Commandments are eternal.

The law of Moses was temporary.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is there another law of Moses, other than the literal one?

If you say there is, then please show me from the scriptures where there is another law of Moses, other than the literal one.

No.
No offense, but since you didn't get anything out of what I've already posted you probably aren't going to get anything out of anything else I say, so I'll keep my answers very short and not waste much more time explaining this to you.

The argument is NOT that there are two laws of Moses. The argument is God accepts a non-literal fulfillment of the law of Moses that does in fact uphold and satisfy the law of Moses, not destroy it, but, which does allow the law of Moses to be nullified in regard to it's literal fulfillment. The end result is that the law of Moses is marked 'satisfied' for you before God, even though literally doing it is no longer necessary. If you have a problem with this, Paul explains this in Romans 2:26-29 NASB using circumcision as the example, as I have already shown.

Otherwise, the literal law of Moses, has been made obsolete, nailed to the cross, been abolished and wiped out... which means it was removed from the Covenant to which it was added. Galatians 3:19, Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:14-15

The literal laws of Moses concerning temple worship have been made obsolete because what happened to us spiritually make it unnecessary to literally keep those now, but that hardly means those laws are not upheld by faith in Christ as your doctrine says. Faith satisfies those laws, not destroys them as your doctrine says.

In the example I used, that means gentiles don't have to be literally circumcised to join with the Jews in the worship of God (neither do Jews for that matter)--the dividing wall of the law of circumcision no longer barring them from union with the nation of God's people. Since they are circumcised in heart God marks the law of Moses--not some other law--in regard to circumcision 'satisfied' on their account in heaven, just as if they had been literally circumcised. Thus the law of Moses is satisfied, not destroyed as your doctrine says it is, but set aside in regard to it's literal keeping nonetheless.

With this 'new' way of being circumcised--by faith in Christ--is what replaced the old way of being circumcised and is why it is no longer the covenant God has between him and his people. But the new way still satisfies that requirement nonetheless, as Paul explains. Thus the law of Moses in this regard is not destroyed but is actually satisfied, fulfilled, and upheld, just as Paul said faith in Christ does, but the law is nullified in regard to it's literal fulfillment. If your doctrine does not start acknowledging these distinct aspects of law--the destroying of the law, the fulfillment of the law, and the nullification of the law--it will never arrive at the truth.

Love God and love your neighbor is the essence of the Torah and the Prophets.

That's why when you love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) you keep the law of Moses, not destroy it in favor of 'another' law as your doctrine has it.

The 10 commandments are directly from God and are the law of God, are are eternal.

That's why that part of the law of Moses is eternal. It's impossible to take something that is eternal and it suddenly not be eternal. It's absurd to say 'do not covet' before the law of Moses was written down is somehow a different 'do not covet' that got written down in the law of Moses.

The law of Moses was the laws written by Moses, that instituted these laws from God in commandments contained in ordinances.

It is impossible to destroy the Ten Commandments in the law of Moses without destroying them somewhere else. They is only one Ten Commandments. It is an absurd notion to think otherwise. Absolutely absurd. But I know why this doctrine was created.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show me this "non literal", "spiritual" keeping of the law of Moses from the law of Moses.

You can't see it with your own eyes in Romans 2:26-29 NASB?
I can't make you see it. That's between you and God.

Here is what Paul said -

Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Galatians 3:10

I see. So when Paul explained that we fulfill the law of Moses when we love others in Romans 13:8-10 NASB he was including literal Mosaic Sabbath keeping, literal Mosaic sacrifices, literal Mosaic tithing, and so on, because if he wasn't he was actually teaching the church that they will be cursed for not doing those too?

What I hope you will eventually see, is that you have been "leavened" with the teachings of Messianic Judaism, which require believers in Christ, to also keep the law of Moses, to some varying degree, based on whichever sect you are talking to.

Like Paul then, right? Who taught that we keep 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB, Romans 13:8-10 NASB), but who also says we don't have to keep 'No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD' (Deuteronomy 23:2 NASB)?
Truthfully, I'm okay with being in his leavened sect of Judaism.

 

[JLB]

The end result is that the law of Moses is marked 'satisfied' for you before God, even though literally doing it is no longer necessary.

Agreed. Doing any of the law of Moses is not required in any way.

It's been nailed to the cross.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed. Doing any of the law of Moses is not required in any way.

It's been nailed to the cross.

JLB

I know your struggle lies in knowing that 'love your neighbor as yourself' in the law of Moses is fulfilled quite literally by faith in Christ (Romans 13:8-10 NASB, Galatians 5:6 NASB, Romans 3:31 NASB). Unlike the temple worship laws which you do seem to understand have been laid aside and do not require literal fulfillment anymore (Romans 2:26-29 NASB, Ephesians 2:15 NASB, Hebrews 10:8-10). Christs work on the cross, and our faith in that work, is seen by God as our satisfactory and acceptable 'keeping' of those temple worship laws. That's why we don't have to keep those anymore. No so with the rest of law of Moses. Our faith satisfies those requirements of the law when we walk in the obedience of faith, filled with the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Like Paul then, right? Who taught that we keep 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB, Romans 13:8-10 NASB), but who also says we don't have to keep 'No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD' (Deuteronomy 23:2 NASB)?
Truthfully, I'm okay with being in his leavened sect of Judaism.

I see. So when Paul explained that we fulfill the law of Moses when we love others in Romans 13:8-10 NASB he was including literal Mosaic Sabbath keeping, literal Mosaic sacrifices, literal Mosaic tithing, and so on, because if he wasn't he was actually teaching the church that they will be cursed for not doing those too?

Any reference to the 10 Commandments is a reference to the law of God.

The 10 Commandments were in force since the beginning, in the Garden.

• Adam and Eve broke the First Commandment by putting another god before the Creator God.

• In doing so, they also broke the Fifth Commandment, by dishonoring their Parent, Adam was a created son of God (Luke 3:38).

• Their sin also involved stealing, in that they took something that was not theirs.

• Eve lusted for the forbidden fruit. Lusting is coveting, or envying which is idolatry.

• Cain murdered and broke the Sixth Commandment.

• Jacob knew that God forbade idolatry. Genesis 35:2

Sin is transgression of God's law. Sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."
Genesis 4:7

The Covenant children transgressed God's law 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

God's laws were before the law of Moses, and were seen in the law of Moses.


Abraham kept these laws 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."Genesis 26:5

My commandments = The 10 Commandments


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

This talk about laws which we must fulfill because God either hasn't, can't, or won't is simply a reflection of pre-gospel legalist vanity. It doesn't matter if you submit yourself to just some of the laws of Moses (which one's exactly?), or submit to various hypothetical laws of the Abrahamic covenant(which laws exactly?), in either case you tacitly consider yourself under law instead of Grace. Ironic considering it is our surrender and faith in Christ's work that saves, and not our work at obedience to ordinances, statutes, or laws that can never, and were never meant save, no matter how much effort we want to believe God needs us to contribute to our own salvation.

:amen

Deborah, you are making the error of thinking that the former husband is the old covenant. No. The old husband is the sin nature.

Rom 7:1 Are ye ignorant, brethren--for to those knowing law I speak--that the law hath lordship over the man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 for the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband;
v. 1-3 The first verse tells me that Paul is addressing the Jews about the Law of Moses/the old covenant. They were in a marriage covenant with the Lord, that is obvious from the OT scriptures. Paul was convincing them that covenant/contract was completed, being fulfilled in and by their Messiah.
From verse 4, you may be able to get the sin nature (old man) dying, in the body of Christ. But I have trouble with thinking I was married to myself.
Here is what Adam Clarke has to say about it, it's short and sweet.
"For I speak to them that know the law - This is a proof that the apostle directs this part of his discourse to the Jews.
As long as he liveth? - Or, as long as It liveth; law does not extend its influence to the dead, nor do abrogated laws bind. It is all the same whether we understand these words as speaking of a law abrogated, so that it cannot command; or of its objects being dead, so that it has none to bind. In either case the law has no force."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

:amen

Rom 7:1 Are ye ignorant, brethren--for to those knowing law I speak--that the law hath lordship over the man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 for the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband;
v. 1-3 The first verse tells me that Paul is addressing the Jews about the Law of Moses/the old covenant. They were in a marriage covenant with the Lord, that is obvious from the OT scriptures. Paul was convincing them that covenant/contract was completed, being fulfilled in and by their Messiah.

That analogy ended when God gave Israel and Judah their certificate of divorce and scattered them to the nations.

8 "And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also." (Jeremiah 3:8 NASB)

Besides, I'll show you that's not the 'marriage' Paul is talking about anyway.

From verse 4, you may be able to get the sin nature (old man) dying, in the body of Christ. But I have trouble with thinking I was married to myself.

You obeyed your sin nature like married woman obeys a husband. That's how you were married to yourself--you obeyed your sin nature like an obedient wife. The law reinforced that obedience to sin (Romans 7:5 NASB, Romans 7: NASB). It acted like a marriage license that kept you bound to husband 'sin nature'.

Here is what Adam Clarke has to say about it, it's short and sweet.
"For I speak to them that know the law - This is a proof that the apostle directs this part of his discourse to the Jews.

Is Paul talking about knowing the law of marriage, or about knowing, in general, the law of Moses. We don't know, but IMO it's obvious he's talking about the law of marriage, that by law a woman is free to marry someone else when their spouse has died.

As long as he liveth? - Or, as long as It liveth; law does not extend its influence to the dead, nor do abrogated laws bind. It is all the same whether we understand these words as speaking of a law abrogated, so that it cannot command; or of its objects being dead, so that it has none to bind. In either case the law has no force."

The law has no force to command you to sin. That's the 'commanding' he and the church are not getting.

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death." (Romans 7:5 NASB)

"sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind" (Romans 7:8 NASB)

Read the verses above. We're no longer under the authority of the law--like a marriage license--to keep us bound in obedience to old husband 'sin nature'. Why? Because old husband 'sin nature' died. The law of marriage has no power, no authority over the person who's spouse has died. So the law can't do what Paul says it does to the person who is still 'in the flesh'--make them sin. That is the 'commanding' that is removed, not the commanding of doing right. Death of sin nature removes the authority of the law to make us sin.

See the church, along with Adam Clarke, is interpreting the passage to mean we no longer have to do what the law says. Instead of what it's actually saying, that the law can no longer make you sin in obedience to your sin nature, like an obedient wife submits to her husband.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is there another law of Moses, other than the literal one?

No, there is not another law of Moses. That's the whole point. Faith in Christ satisfies the one and only law of Moses, not another law as you insist. You can't see it but that is exactly what Paul shows us in Romans 2:26 NASB.

"...if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?" (Romans 2:26 NASB)

Paul said it. The person who is not circumcised outwardly is counted by God as being circumcised according to the law of Moses. The argument of the Jews was that the gentiles had to be circumcised according to the law, but Paul says God regards them as having satisfied the lawful requirement for circumcision through their faith in Christ and the Spirit of God. The law of Moses, not some other law, being satisfied by their faith in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm borrowing this from a PM I wrote because I think it summarizes the argument I'm setting forth here well:

In Romans 2:26 NASB, Paul says the person who has faith in Christ is regarded by God as having kept the Mosaic law of circumcision. See it? That's the point. Faith in Christ keeps the law of Moses, not some other law as so many in the church argue because they misunderstand what Paul meant when he spoke about the law of Moses being 'set aside'.

Set aside does not mean we don't keep the righteousness of the law of Moses as so many think. Paul tells us plainly in more than one place that faith in Christ does in fact 'keep' the law of Moses. What 'set aside' (abolished, nullified, etc.) means is we don't keep the righteousness of the law of Moses in the old way of the literal temple/worship laws and mere written words (Romans 7:6 NIV).​

 

[JLB]

But I have trouble with thinking I was married to myself.

2:amen

 

[JLB]

The person who is not circumcised outwardly is counted by God as being circumcised according to the law of Moses.

Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. Deuteronomy 10:6

God has always wanted an uncircumcised heart, but this did not allow the children of Israel the option of not being circumcised outwardly.

And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. Exodus 12:48

And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Leviticus 12:3

If you show me from the law where God gave the children of Israel the option of not being circumcised outwardly, then we can discuss it.

n Romans 2:26 NASB, Paul says the person who has faith in Christ is regarded by God as having kept the Mosaic law of circumcision.

Amen. That would be the New Covenant you are referring to and not the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. Deuteronomy 10:6

God has always wanted an uncircumcised heart, but this did not allow the children of Israel the option of not being circumcised outwardly.

And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. Exodus 12:48

And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Leviticus 12:3

If you show me from the law where God gave the children of Israel the option of not being circumcised outwardly, then we can discuss it.

Did someone slip in while I was away and make that argument, that while under the old covenant the Jews had the option of not obeying the law in regard to literal circumcision? For them to think they did not have to be literally circumcised during the old covenant would be akin to the Apostles thinking they could eat literal leaven before Christ revealed to them that he wasn't talking about literal leaven (Matthew 16:6-12 NASB).

Amen. That would be the New Covenant you are referring to and not the law of Moses.

The point being, obedient faith in the New Covenant 'keeps' the law of Moses, not some other law. The uncircumcised fellow who is circumcised by the Spirit through faith in Christ is regarded by God as being circumcised in satisfaction of the requirement of the law of Moses. His faith being counted to him as keeping the law of Moses, not destroying it as the church thinks faith in Christ does. That is the point.

And because the uncircumcised fellow is regarded by God as being circumcised according to Moses (Romans 2:26 NASB), there is no need for him to be literally circumcised according to the law of Moses. THAT is what gets set aside. His faith in Christ setting aside the literal requirement as unneeded now because the Spirit of God through his faith has already done that for him, thus meeting that requirement of the law of Moses.

That is what it means for the law that separated Jew and gentile to be nullified (set aside) through the new way of approaching God--faith in Christ. The law of Moses that separated them was not destroyed in this new way of faith in Christ to serve God (the requirement for circumcision remains). And the law of Moses also does not go unfulfilled in this new way of faith in Christ to serve God (God regards the believing gentile as circumcised). What does happen to the law of Moses in this new way to serve God is the temple/worship laws get set aside in regard to their literal fulfillment.

 

[JLB]

The point being, obedient faith in the New Covenant 'keeps' the law of Moses, not some other law. The uncircumcised fellow who is circumcised by the Spirit through faith in Christ is regarded by God as being circumcised in satisfaction of the requirement of the law of Moses. His faith being counted to him as keeping the law of Moses, not destroying it as the church thinks faith in Christ does. That is the point.

Since it was God who nailed that covenant to the cross and declared it obsolete so that it has vanished away, and Christ Himself has abolished in His flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances, (Eph 2:14-15) and not our faith that abolishes it, why is it the Messianics try to convince everyone they must be circumcised outwardly and keep the law of Moses in order to be right with God.

These are the very people you say, you learned your doctrine from.

Is it necessary to keep the law of Moses to be right with God?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since it was God who nailed that covenant to the cross and declared it obsolete so that it has vanished away, and Christ Himself has abolished in His flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances, (Eph 2:14-15) and not our faith that abolishes it, why is it the Messianics try to convince everyone they must be circumcised outwardly and keep the law of Moses in order to be right with God.

You'll have to ask them. I argue with them, too.
And like any honest person would be expected to do, I have gleaned what truth they do know that the Protestant church does not. But the requirement for literal Mosaic temple/worship law keeping is surely not a truth that it should be gleaned from them.

These are the very people you say, you learned your doctrine from.

No, lol, I use the same scriptures, including Ephesians 2:15 NASB to disprove their contention that the ceremonial laws of Moses have to be kept literally.

Is it necessary to keep the law of Moses to be right with God?

Necessary to literally keep the ceremonial temple laws? No.

But it is necessary that God count the law of Moses in regard to those things as being completed and satisfied on your account (i.e. circumcision, the Day of Atonement). Obedient faith in Christ does that. Faith in Christ is the new WAY that we satisfy the temple/worship requirements of the law of Moses, not destroy them as the church thinks. But a way that does set aside the literal keeping of those temple/worship laws, because what the literal sought to do has already been done for us through our faith by the Holy Spirit (i.e. circumcision)--Romans 2:26-29, Hebrews 10:1-9 NASB.

 

[JLB]

But it is necessary that God count the law of Moses in regard to those things as being completed and satisfied on your account (i.e. circumcision, the Day of Atonement). Obedient faith in Christ does that. Faith in Christ is the new WAY that we satisfy the temple/worship requirements of the law of Moses, not destroy them as the church thinks. But a way that does set aside the literal keeping of those temple/worship laws, because what the literal sought to do has already been done for us through our faith by the Holy Spirit (i.e. circumcision)--Romans 2:26-29, Hebrews 10:1-9 NASB.

Since Christ Himself abolished in His flesh, the law of Commandments contained in ordinances,
Is it necessary to keep the only law of Moses there ever was, the one that Moses gave to the children of Israel, to be right with God?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since Christ Himself abolished in His flesh, the law of Commandments contained in ordinances,
Is it necessary to keep the only law of Moses there ever was, the one that Moses gave to the children of Israel, to be right with God?


JLB

Is the uncircumcised fellow in Romans 2:26-29 'right with God' if God does not see his faith as having satisfied the law of circumcision for him? Obviously, 'no'.