What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

Yes, we can worship any day of the week, but the Sabbath is not on any day of the week. If you choose to rest on Wednesday, that does not make Wednesday the Sabbath Day.

The Sabbath is the 7th Day of the week.

Yes, the Sabbath is for rest. We are to work six days (Sunday through Friday) and rest the 7th day.

I believe we have both agreed on this point more than once.

 

[Karl]

It is “jocor," not "Jacor." Here is my understanding of those references:

John 20:19, 25 - Notice they were "assembled for fear of the Jews," not to worship & fellowship. They were hiding. According to Mk.16:11-14, they didn't believe Yeshua had resurrected so they certainly could not honor that day as the “Lord’s Day” or new Sabbath at that point in time.

The next verse (26) is interesting.

“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.​

This does not refer to Sunday. Eight days after a Sunday is a Monday or the start of the third day of the week for the disciples. Why, then, isn’t the Lord’s Day on a Monday? The fact of the matter is, the day the risen Savior appeared to men does NOT determine when the “Lord’s Day” is, nor does it negate the day men are to rest from their labors.

Acts 20:7 - What does it mean to "break bread"? Does it mean to take "the Lord's supper" on Sunday? According to Acts 2:42-46, "breaking bread" was done daily. It simply means to have a meal. In Acts 20:7, the disciples finished Sabbath services on Saturday. After the sun set ending Sabbath and beginning the first day of the week, they had a meal together followed by Paul's preaching until midnight on the first of the week (our Saturday night). The disciples held this special gathering because their beloved Paul was to leave the next morning (vs. 7). In the morning, he had planned to walk approx. 10 miles to Assos. Notice he would not take this strenuous, tiring trip on Sabbath, but waited instead until Sunday, another work day.

Rev 1:10 - Is the "Lord's day" a new name for Sunday, a reference to the weekly Sabbath, or a reference to "The Day of the LORD," "The Day of Yahweh"? The latter could be true since John was transported in the spirit to the prophetic time known as "The Day of Yahweh." It seems more likely, however, that John was referring to the weekly Sabbath. Yeshua, in referring to himself, said, "...the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath" (Mk.2:28). In other words, since Yeshua is the Lord or Master of that day, then the weekly Saturday Sabbath is the Lord's day or Yeshua's day. To say that it means Sunday is pure assumption without fact or Scripture to back it up.

However, even if the “Lord’s Day” meant Sunday, that only suggests they honored Yeshua by remembering Sunday as his resurrection day. It does NOT prove they moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. They could just as easily rested on the Sabbath as usual, but also kept Sunday special in some way.

As for Justin Martyr and Tertullian, they are far removed in time from the practices of the apostolic assemblies. Once the Apostles and the core Jewish believers had died, the predominantly Gentile church began to allow all sorts of false doctrines in. The wolves did not spare the flock as Paul prophesied in Acts 20:29-30. One of those false doctrines was the moving of Sabbath to Sunday. Tertullian wrote, “All anxiety is to abstained from, and business postponed on the Lord’s Day.” De Orat. c. 17. Yet, how many in the churches today do that? Many teach that there is no Sabbath at all, either on Saturday or Sunday.

It is “jocor," not "Jacor." Here is my understanding of those references:

John 20:19, 25 - Notice they were "assembled for fear of the Jews," not to worship & fellowship. They were hiding. According to Mk.16:11-14, they didn't believe Yeshua had resurrected so they certainly could not honor that day as the “Lord’s Day” or new Sabbath at that point in time.

The next verse (26) is interesting.

“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.​

This does not refer to Sunday. Eight days after a Sunday is a Monday or the start of the third day of the week for the disciples. Why, then, isn’t the Lord’s Day on a Monday? The fact of the matter is, the day the risen Savior appeared to men does NOT determine when the “Lord’s Day” is, nor does it negate the day men are to rest from their labors.

Acts 20:7 - What does it mean to "break bread"? Does it mean to take "the Lord's supper" on Sunday? According to Acts 2:42-46, "breaking bread" was done daily. It simply means to have a meal. In Acts 20:7, the disciples finished Sabbath services on Saturday. After the sun set ending Sabbath and beginning the first day of the week, they had a meal together followed by Paul's preaching until midnight on the first of the week (our Saturday night). The disciples held this special gathering because their beloved Paul was to leave the next morning (vs. 7). In the morning, he had planned to walk approx. 10 miles to Assos. Notice he would not take this strenuous, tiring trip on Sabbath, but waited instead until Sunday, another work day.

Rev 1:10 - Is the "Lord's day" a new name for Sunday, a reference to the weekly Sabbath, or a reference to "The Day of the LORD," "The Day of Yahweh"? The latter could be true since John was transported in the spirit to the prophetic time known as "The Day of Yahweh." It seems more likely, however, that John was referring to the weekly Sabbath. Yeshua, in referring to himself, said, "...the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath" (Mk.2:28). In other words, since Yeshua is the Lord or Master of that day, then the weekly Saturday Sabbath is the Lord's day or Yeshua's day. To say that it means Sunday is pure assumption without fact or Scripture to back it up.

However, even if the “Lord’s Day” meant Sunday, that only suggests they honored Yeshua by remembering Sunday as his resurrection day. It does NOT prove they moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. They could just as easily rested on the Sabbath as usual, but also kept Sunday special in some way.

As for Justin Martyr and Tertullian, they are far removed in time from the practices of the apostolic assemblies. Once the Apostles and the core Jewish believers had died, the predominantly Gentile church began to allow all sorts of false doctrines in. The wolves did not spare the flock as Paul prophesied in Acts 20:29-30. One of those false doctrines was the moving of Sabbath to Sunday. Tertullian wrote, “All anxiety is to abstained from, and business postponed on the Lord’s Day.” De Orat. c. 17. Yet, how many in the churches today do that? Many teach that there is no Sabbath at all, either on Saturday or Sunday.

Thank you jocor, sorry for the misspelling of your handle,

thank you for the explanations, I'm assuming you are Jewish, I enjoy the explanations of the Word from a Jewish viewpoint, back in the states we had a born again Jewish couple that would come to the church and explain the feasts to us as we would celebrate them when they rolled around on the calender, ...always a wonderful time of fellowshipping and learning the heart of our shared Messiah.

Blessings

 

[JLB]

disagree again. Gen 26:5 does not tell us that Yahweh directly gave Abraham His laws. It simply says he obeyed His voice.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5

It simply says Abraham obeyed His Voice and kept His charge... God charged Abraham to walk before Him and be blameless, which Abraham did. From this relationship of walking before God and obeying His voice, Abraham was called a friend of God and became the father of many nations.

This is the testimony God has about Abraham -

For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Genesis 18:19

To know caries the meaning of teach and instruct.

Know - Strong's Number: 03045 - Yada`
Definition

1. to know
   1. (Qal)
      1. to know 1a
   2. to know, learn to know 1a
   3. to perceive 1a
   4. to perceive and see, find out and discern 1a
   5. to discriminate, distinguish 1a
   6. to know by experience 1a
   7. to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess 1a
   8. to consider
      1. to know, be acquainted with
      2. to know (a person carnally)
      3. to know how, be skilful in
      4. to have knowledge, be wise
   9. (Niphal)
      1. to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
      2. to make oneself known
      3. to be perceived
      4. to be instructed
   10. (Piel) to cause to know
   11. (Poal) to cause to know
   12. (Pual)
       1. to be known
       2. known, one known, acquaintance (participle)
   13. (Hiphil) to make known, declare
   14. (Hophal) to be made known
   15. (Hithpael) to make oneself known, reveal oneself

King James Word Usage - Total: 947
know 645, known 105, knowledge 19, perceive 18, shew 17, tell 8, wist 7, understand 7, certainly 7, acknowledge 6, acquaintance 6, consider 6, declare 6, teach 5, miscellaneous 85


God taught Abraham personally, just as He intended to teach Adam, and intended to teach us as well.

This is the promise of the New Covenant - The is the way of the Church that Jesus builds!

... for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you.

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:15-17



This scripture teaches us that Abraham had a relationship with God, and when God commanded him to do something Abraham obeyed His Commandment.

God's law is what He tells you to do.

The only commandment for Adam that scripture records for us is; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."



What the scripture does not say, is Abraham was "taught" God's laws by some "oral" tradition.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Brother, if YHWH speaks to us, then that is what produces faith, whether through scripture or through a child or through a person whom He sends to preach the Gospel.

However, just because it's scripture, does not mean it's a Rhema word from God.

Every word of the Law is rhema. Here is Exodus 24:4 from the Septuagint and the KJV.

και G2532[CONJ] εγραψεν G1125[V-AAI-3S] μωυσης [N-NSM] παντα G3956[A-APN] τα G3588[T-APN] ρηματα G4487[N-APN] κυριου G2962[N-GSM] ορθρισας G3719[V-AAPNS] δε G1161[PRT] μωυσης [N-NSM] το G3588[T-ASN] πρωι G4404[ADV] ωκοδομησεν G3618[V-AAI-3S] θυσιαστηριον G2379[N-ASN] υπο G5259[PREP] το G3588[T-ASN] ορος G3735[N-ASN] και G2532[CONJ] δωδεκα G1427[N-NUI] λιθους G3037[N-APM] εις G1519[PREP] τας G3588[T-APF] δωδεκα G1427[N-NUI] φυλας G5443[N-APF] του G3588[T-GSM] ισραηλ G2474[N-PRI]​

And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.​

27

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:27-28

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

Establish - Strong's Number: 2476 -

1. to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
   1. to bid to stand by, [set up]
      1. in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
      2. to place
   2. to make firm, fix establish
      1. to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
      2. to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
      3. to establish a thing, cause it to stand 1b
2. to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
   1. to set or place in a balance
      1. to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
3. to stand
   1. to stand by or near
      1. to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm 2a
   2. of the foundation of a building
   3. to stand
      1. continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
      2. to be of a steadfast mind
      3. of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver

The law of faith and the law of Moses balance each other, just as a pound of gold balances a pound of confederate money.

However confederate money like the law of Moses is obsolete.

Unless you believe in sacrificing animals for the atonement for sin.

JLB

Can you provide me with a translation that uses "balance" or "weigh" instead of "establish" or "uphold"? The Aramaic doesn't even have "weigh" as a meaning. Neither does Strong's.

mqymyn - ܡܩܝܡܝܢ

ID Category Origin SEDRA3 Peshitta NT Strongs
2:18363 Verb - rise, stand, establish, stand show verses G1453,G2476,G498,G1537+G1727,G2525,G450
​

Also, the Greek word 2476 is never translated "weigh" or "balance" throughout the New Testament.

 

[jocor]

Thank you jocor, sorry for the misspelling of your handle,

thank you for the explanations, I'm assuming you are Jewish, I enjoy the explanations of the Word from a Jewish viewpoint, back in the states we had a born again Jewish couple that would come to the church and explain the feasts to us as we would celebrate them when they rolled around on the calender, ...always a wonderful time of fellowshipping and learning the heart of our shared Messiah.

Blessings

As far as I know, I am not Jewish. However, my ancestors are Italian, so perhaps Jews were scattered into Italy and I am from one of them. I try and study Scripture with Jewish culture and perspectives in mind.

 

[JLB]

We are commanded to not forsake the gathering of ourselves together and we are commanded to have a holy convocation on that day.

Please share the chapter and verse that commands us to gather ourselves together and have a holy convocation on the Sabbath.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Please share the chapter and verse that commands us to gather ourselves together and have a holy convocation on the Sabbath.


JLB

I was referring to Hebrews 10:25 and Lev 23:3.

 

[JLB]

Every word of the Law is rhema. Here is Exodus 24:4 from the Septuagint and the KJV.

και G2532[CONJ] εγραψεν G1125[V-AAI-3S] μωυσης [N-NSM] παντα G3956[A-APN] τα G3588[T-APN] ρηματα G4487[N-APN] κυριου G2962[N-GSM] ορθρισας G3719[V-AAPNS] δε G1161[PRT] μωυσης [N-NSM] το G3588[T-ASN] πρωι G4404[ADV] ωκοδομησεν G3618[V-AAI-3S] θυσιαστηριον G2379[N-ASN] υπο G5259[PREP] το G3588[T-ASN] ορος G3735[N-ASN] και G2532[CONJ] δωδεκα G1427[N-NUI] λιθους G3037[N-APM] εις G1519[PREP] τας G3588[T-APF] δωδεκα G1427[N-NUI] φυλας G5443[N-APF] του G3588[T-GSM] ισραηλ G2474[N-PRI]
And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Yes God spoke directly to Moses, which is His rhema.

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15

If this is God's Rhema word to you then you need to obey it.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I was referring to Hebrews 10:25 and Lev 23:3.

25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. Hebrews 10:25

No mention of a specific day to gather mentioned here.


JLB

 

[Karl]

As far as I know, I am not Jewish. However, my ancestors are Italian, so perhaps Jews were scattered into Italy and I am from one of them. I try and study Scripture with Jewish culture and perspectives in mind.

Okay, I too would like to study Scripture with Jewish culture and perspectives in mind, I have the writings of Josephus and the Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Edershime, ...can you recommend any other reliable sources?

Thanks

 

[jocor]

Yes God spoke directly to Moses, which is His rhema.

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15

If this is God's Rhema word to you then you need to obey it.



JLB

I agree and I endeavor to. However, if I mess up, I will not be put to death. Yeshua paid that price for me.

 

[JLB]

I was referring to Hebrews 10:25 and Lev 23:3.

3 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. Leviticus 23:3

Make sure you keep this part also -

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15


JLB

 

[jocor]

25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. Hebrews 10:25

No mention of a specific day to gather mentioned here.


JLB

I agree, but coupled with Lev 23:3 we have the gathering day pinpointed.

 

[JLB]

I agree and I endeavor to. However, if I mess up, I will not be put to death. Yeshua paid that price for me.

Amen to that!

JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree, but coupled with Lev 23:3 we have the gathering day pinpointed.

Under the law of Moses it is commanded to put to death those who violate the Sabbath.

The Church is not under the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Okay, I too would like to study Scripture with Jewish culture and perspectives in mind, I have the writings of Josephus and the Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Edershime, ...can you recommend any other reliable sources?

Thanks

The Works of Philo and the Mishnah. The Mishnah is the first part of the Talmud and has a wealth of commentary from a Jewish perspective.

 

[reba]

The Israelites used a lunar calendar. does that change the calculations of which day is the seventh day.

seems to me the first day should be what we would call Sunday then the Sabbath would be on day 7 not day 3
it would then be 14.... 21... 28 then back to 7 etc... seems to me 'our ' Saturday is not Gods Sabbath.

 

[Karl]

The Works of Philo and the Mishnah. The Mishnah is the first part of the Talmud and has a wealth of commentary from a Jewish perspective.

Thank you

 

[jocor]

Under the law of Moses it is commanded to put to death those who violate the Sabbath.

The Church is not under the law of Moses.


JLB

Correct. However, all Ten Commandments should be written on our hearts, not just nine of them.
Also, "not under the law" does not mean "not subject to the law". According to Paul, anyone who refuses to be subject to the Law is being carnally minded to some degree (Romans 8:7).

 

[jocor]

The Israelites used a lunar calendar. does that change the calculations of which day is the seventh day.

seems to me the first day should be what we would call Sunday then the Sabbath would be on day 7 not day 3
it would then be 14.... 21... 28 then back to 7 etc... seems to me 'our ' Saturday is not Gods Sabbath.

They used a luni-solar calendar. Islam uses a lunar calendar which is why their holy days float throughout the year. Because Israel uses a luni-solar calendar, the holy days remain in their seasons, but do not necessarily fall on the same Roman calendar day each year.

The Sabbath is not based on the luni-solar calendar or on the Roman calendar. It is a repetitive count of seven days starting with the Sabbath of the creation week. It always starts at sundown on Friday night and ends at sundown on Saturday. On the calendar you posted, the Sabbath falls on Jan. 3, 10, 17, 24 and 31.